Charles Manson

[Biggen]

First, I'd like to apologize in advance if this is the wrong place to post this. I poked around the other forums to see if there was a better place, but thought this was best. The mods can move it if there's a more appropriate forum.

My question is, did any of you "old-timers" ever cross paths or have any sort of contact with Manson? I don't mean "where you part of the Family", but did any of you happen to run into him? (Perhaps in a park, or at a gathering of some sort...or anywhere)

If so, I'd appreciate some feedback on what your impression was of him at that time. What was his behavior like, who was with him...y'know, the whys, whens, where at...just anything you may remember.

I'm not a Manson worshipper, or a wierdo. I do like to read/research that unfortunate time, on occasion. I thought I might get good response from the kind folks here.

I don't mean to dig up bad memories, or to bring anyone down by asking. I'm just curious. So, thank you in advance and I'm anxious for any replies.

Peace

[JayBird]

You probably won't get too many responses on this in this forum. Not too many people would admit to knowing him. His values and vision didn't have anything to do with hippies or the social movement they embodied. He was an aberration. I was in the 4th grade when all that happened, so I don't remember much of it. But I recently saw the new version of Helter Skelter and became curious about it, so I did a little internet research. Only about 5 of them are in prison. The rest are still out running loose, and some are still ranting the same crazy shit. Charlie is still...Charlie. Susan Atkins and Tex Watson are supposedly born again Christians and trying to get paroled...fat chance. Anyway, if you're interested, here's a website run by one of his followers, who calls herself "Red." http://www.atwa.info/ I wouldn't recommend trying to correspond with any of these people, they're as mad as hatters. But there's some interesting info there if you're curious. (The home page has a pretty graphic image, so be warned).

[shameless_heifer]

I was around when Charlie and his gang of murduring thevies were in the 'City'. He didn't live in the Haight most of the time, he had his headquarters up on the Avenues.

Charlie and his desiples came to the Haight looking for lost souls to prey on. I was approched by Susan Atkins while I sat in a doorway on Haight Street. I had only been in SF for a few daze and was nieve to what was going on as far as being a small fish in a BIG pond.

Susan was very nice, with her words and her invitation to come crash at the place where she stayed. She was with a couple of other street kids, but I dont remember who they were. There was something vacant in her eyes and I felt I could not trust her, so I declined her invatation.

Several months later, I hooked up with my future X husband.. Cliff da Wiff. Cliff was a street man and had been in the Haight a while. He was a packrat and collected anything shiny. He was very creative and he made jewlery and trip lights. We got kicked out of our pad on haight over Love Burgers and Cliff took me to a house on Shrader street, between Page and Oak St.

When we arrived, there were several people in the house.. at least 12 or 15. The dude that ran the house was called DOC. He stayed locked up in his room with his harem of women. One of the women befriended me.. her name was Jessie. Jessies was a tall blonde hoochie mama that turned tricks in the Tenderloin.

Her drugs of choice were Speedballs.. Heroin and Methadrine.. Jessie's head was pretty screwed up, but she was good to me and tried to protect me.. I was heavy into Speed by then as Cliff had gotten me on what he was on.

I don't remember anyone ever sleeping in that house. I was there about a month and tons of people would come and go.. slipping into DOCs room with a password.
I had been in Docs room three or four times in that month I spent there.

Doc was a tall dude over 6ft, he had long black hair that kind of stuck out everywhere. He dressed in what I call Wizard's robes. He was MANIC. His eye were ferice, dark and forboding. He sat in a highback chair with his minions around him catering to his every whim. Susan Atkins was there by his side.

I feared this man. He made the hair on the back of my neck stand straight up and made my skin feel crawly when he's pin me with his vulture like eyes. I was seventeen at the time.

When Cliff got us a place of our own, he came and got me. We moved over to Cole St to a flat the overlooked Haight St. We were there a couple of months, when I called my parents to let them know I was cool and had a new place to live.

When my mother answered the phone and heard my voice she FREEKED. and was crying and talking crazy about someone being killed., I couldnt understand why she was so upset. My Daddy got on the phone and this is what he said.

" Mary are you all right'.. yes daddy I am fine.. whats wrong.. Mary.. yes daddy.. The FIB has been here asking your where abouts.. Why Daddy.. I havent done anything bad... 'Baby, he said.. Your ID was found on a woman who was involved in a murder in Airzona.. Squeekie Frome.. she had your ID Mary. Do you know her.. no daddy I don't think I do know her.. I lost my ID.. or someone stole it a while back.
Mary daddy said again.. this woman is one of Charlie Mansons gang... who's charlie manson daddy.. 'He's a murdering hippie Mary.. Wake UP baby'... Daddy.. Hippies dont murder people.

My Daddy said they had PIs looking for me and the Police dept had an all points on me.. 'Daddy call them and tell them to stop looking for me I am not involved with thoes people in any way'. I finely convinced my Daddy that I was not involved with murders and Daddy said I had to come home and talk to the FBI. He sent me a plane ticket and I went back to Anahiem to talk to the FBI.

After talking with the FEDs, they came to the conclusion that I had no imformation to give them.. and that I was not part of the Manson Cult. They also told me that Manson was sometimes refered to as DOC.

Now how close is that

sh

[JayBird]

Wow. I didn't think Charlie was that tall though. Anyway, what I'm curious about is how he was able to manipulate people the way he did. You gotta admit, he wasn't a very attractive guy. Was it drugs? Personality? Being at the right place at the right time? I'll never understand it.

[Ranger]

I was in the Haight when anson was but to the best of my knowledge I never incountered him personally. I was answering the phones at the Haight Ashbury Switchboard the morning the story of the murders broke and some fool reporter from LA called to ask if there was a group in the Haight called 'the Family'. I told him that almost every house in the neighborhood with three or more people in it called themselves a family, who did he mean? He soon gave up and hung up. *L*

I remember a day or two later a group of us went out for breakfast to a diner outside the Haight and the waitress was terrified that there were hippies at her table and had a breakdown and had someone else serve us.
Later I encountered a few of his fringe people and one look in their eyes or a minute or two listening to them brag a bout knowing Charlie and your skin began to crawl and there was no way you would trust them with anything. The look in their eyes was as a rule either vacant trance like or totally wild and crazed.
Charlie and the latter day killers Leonard Lake and Charles Ng had one thing in common they used the Haight as a hunting ground preying on naive young hippes and runaways both as recruits and victims. They were recluses and kept a low profile as far as involvement with the community in general and were never really considered 'hippies' by bulk of the community.

[shameless_heifer]

I don't know if that was Charlie.. But I tell you what.. if it wasnt him, It was deffinatly one of his Fellow Cult members...I just emember him being tall bc I am short and most everyone was taller then I was.. I do know that it was susan atkins bc I saw her later on the news. And they did arrest Squeekie Frome for her involvement in the Arizona murders. And she was in posession of my birth certificate. How she got it I don't really know..

Ranger you right about them not mixing with the neighborhood.. They'd send the women out to look for the ones looking for acceptance and a place of belonging... I was dumb.. but I had enough "Spirit" in me that I backed away from it. I'd rather sit on the stoop and watch "The Show" on Haight St. Then be in some dudes harem..

Manson was a swingali.. he brainwashed people that were 'short' on brain cells in the first place. You could pick them out in a crowd.. the lonely, scared and lost ones that came flooding into the Haight in the middle 60s.

A 'Family' sounded good to them. A place to stay and food and baths. And all the mind altering drugs you wanted. Sweet pretty words to lul you into their way of thinking, isolating you from reality. Turning what they do into something heroic and meaningful. Sublimely and craftily planting weeds of murderous intent into their victoms head.

The La Bianca murders was a retailation on Brian Wilson ( beach boys), who had formaly occupied the house where the killings took place.
Brian was helping Manson break out into the rocknroll biz.. Manson wanted to be a Rock Star.

But being who manson was, Brian got paranoid bc manson was so wierd and he was afraid of him. Manson was living with Brian at the house and knew the house inside out.
Finely Brian asked manson to leave bc of his strange and violent behavior and became unavailable to manson. This enraged manson bc Brian was his connect to the music industry and he started stalking Brian.

Brian moved from the house and went into hiding. Manson came to seek his revenge, but instead of finding Brian he found the La Binacas and the rest is history.

I got this information after investagating manson and his cult.. I was interested bc my name had been connected with them. I was horrifide to find out that I was in any minuet way associated with that type of evil bc I am a Child of Creator, my GOD.

I was fortunate not to befall what so many young people got involved with. ESP with cults like mansons and other deviated individuals lurking about preying in guise of Hippie dress.

sh

[JayBird]

SH, maybe Doc was Manson. My only source has been the internet, and I've seen his height given as anything from 5'2 to 5'8. I don't know. I guess sometimes a forceful intimidating personality can make a person seem larger than life. As for indoctrinating those girls with his philosophy, I have heard that he had them on acid constantly, and only pretended to drop acid himself. That's a drug that can put a person in a particularly suggestive state. Even better than hypnosis. And if you're lonely, outcast, no job or a place to crash, yeah, I guess I can picture it. He did surround himself with some cute chicks. Homicidal maniacs, but cute.

[Biggen]

Wow, thanks for those replies! SH, that's a very scarey story. I wonder how many others found themselves in your situation? *shudder*


Yes, I'm fairly certain Manson is very short. Self confidence and a "larger than life" presence can make folks seem much taller. I have read, somewhere, that Manson has a very high IQ. He doesn't have much of a formal education, he's just very intelligent, very intuitive. Mix that with all of the ways he learned to twist people to his way of thinking, due to being a life-long convict, and associating with manipulative people in various institutions, it's kind of easy to see how young, wandering souls would fall prey.

I've also read that at one time Manson was very much into Scientology, as well as "mysticism" and religions in general, or his twisted version of them. Again, throw in mind-altering drugs and a little "street hustle", lay it on some desperate young people with no place to go, and you've got a sick little "revolution" on your hands.

I wasn't too sure about posting this, as I said. I didn't want to freak people out or dig up bad memories. Thanks again for these replies, I look forward to more, if there are any!

Peace

[nouronion]

there was a one hour biography on him on the history channel not to long ago i watched it a few times. Physically he looked so small and weak, i think it said he was 5'7, and he looked pretty skinny. He must of been very intelligent and had some kind of mind controll cause i couldnt see anybody being afraid of him if not.

[samson]

Wavy Gravy tells a story about encountering Charlie and a couple of his family hitchiking. Gravy's bus picks them up, and there is a heavy vibe, so Wavy leads everyone in chanting "OM". Manson and the family members freak out and demand to be let off, and Wavy gives him grief as they exit the bus. Later, they learn who they were travelling with!

[FlyingBurritoBro]

Phil Kaufman wrote a book called "Road Mangler Deluxe" that has a short bit about the Manson family and running into him in the desert. The book is worth reading. And Manson is a short guy.

[shameless_heifer]

sorry 'bout the hight thing..It was 37 yrs ago, and well it was the sixties. I'm 5'1 1/4 so an ellf would seem tall to me. :) ... ahhhh the boots.. he wore cowboy boots, that would put a couple of inches on him.

At any rate, he was an evil force and ruined countless lives. I found through my investigation that manson was indeed into satanic rituals. Blood rituals, usuing babies and hanging them upside down on a cross. True evil incarnate.

[JayBird]

SH, when you mentioned he was into satanism, that reminded me of something I read on the internet, I forget which site. I don't know if it's true or not. Just as you'll find in any high profile case, there's a certain amount of popular myth on this subject. Anyway, I read that Susan Atkins told another inmate in jail that she wanted to do a lot more to Sharon Tate, but she ran out of time. Supposedly she not only wanted to cut out the baby, she wanted to take it back to the ranch, roast it over a fire as a sacrifice, and serve it to the family to eat. And now she's a born again Christian, and we're supposed to forget all that, because she's "sorry". Right.:rolleyes:

[DR. REEFER]

i was at a buddys house a couple months back and he was showing me these prison interviews with charles manson he got off the net. This guy really is intelligent, i personally think its fascinating how this guy thinks, its just pure evil and to him it seems like the best honest way. truely astonishing how this guy thinks. That doesnt mean that what he did was right though. Terrible terrible shit the family pulled.Its fucked up theres a part where he mentions how hes happy to have finally gained attentiin from the public (since he never made it to be a rockstar) and weirder than that, the guys happy to be jail he loves it.

[Jonny Rotten]

Loved that song he did with the beetles helta skalter

I think he played drums

And he was great when he was in southpark:)

[eyesofthewhirled]

i'm weirdly curious about cults and what not... got this video off of ebay a couple years ago that was shot at spahn's ranch(i believe) when charlie was first in jail then later released for a bit. its eery stuff man. they all had the same glassy blue vacant eyes.... girls in bikinis stroking guns and talking about charlie being jesus. talking about how everyone should do acid and then they show clips of the little children obviously dosed out of their minds. theres a lot more horrific details that they share that their beloved charlie had them do... :( i just pray those children made it through with no memories of those early years.

[Wonder Girl]

Wow,Shameless..that's a crazy story,I'm glad you decided to share it with the forums.

I'm also curious about the cult stuff....I've read several books about the Manson family and researched it online a little. It's just insane that a man so evil could control people like that...he really was and maybe still is,very intelligent...an expert manipulator. I watched a program about his parole attempts and he was just so crazed and angered. His eyes,they're almost unhuman looking...it's scary to see him on tv screen even. I can't imagine how those people feel being in a room with him.

[michaelstevenson]

just visited that site u all and u outta check it out outta check out the photos u know this man verry well could be our savior and our gouv wouldent care i was just arrested for crimes i didnt committ and it took me 5 weeks to proove i didnt whille my 2 darlin children had to be without there father and 3 days before court the deputy sherriff called threating me with my life and shit telling me not to go to court and when i called the fbi and his srgnt they didnt care 1 bit i went to court they realized they didnt have a case but still did they care hell no now i have no worries and they know im innocent but still the caos continues even though i have no more court mabe he is innocent why not give the man the bennafit of doubt what harm can he do us now...mabe he can teach us all something and there is plenty we all need to learn still...so charlie i belive u should be free hell if u molest little kids u get less time and i belive thats worse than fucking murder..dead people dont have to go throughout life thinking about what has been done to them............just rember folks...we scorn a child who is affraid of the dark but the true tragity in life is when grown men are scared of the light

[Ranger]

i'm weirdly curious about cults and what not... got this video off of ebay a couple years ago that was shot at spahn's ranch(i believe) when charlie was first in jail then later released for a bit. its eery stuff man. they all had the same glassy blue vacant eyes.... girls in bikinis stroking guns and talking about charlie being jesus. talking about how everyone should do acid and then they show clips of the little children obviously dosed out of their minds. theres a lot more horrific details that they share that their beloved charlie had them do... :( i just pray those children made it through with no memories of those early years.

Michael, It's not like Charlie wasn't a child molester. The mind fuck he inflicted on the young girls of his herem. the dosing of their kids, and last but not at all least the ultimate molestation of Tates unborn baby more than qualify him as someone who is a threat to all....

[shameless_heifer]

Michael.. have you lost your mind!!!! I know you are intitled to your opinion, but for the LOVE of Mankind, how can you make such rash statements. If you really believe that our Saviour could or would committ such atrosities, then in my opinion you should be his (mansons) cell mate for a few years and then, see if you still feel the same way.

He should have been tried in Texas, the havent abbolished the death penalty, if fact we have a express lane. ( climbing upon soap box). I must say this and be perfectly clear as to what I am saying.

Manson is EVIL Incarnate!! They should have exacuted him and his minions.
Evil begets Evil. It breeds and grows. It takes over the Spirit if you let it in your life.
Evil knows no bounds, it has no conscience, no moral fiber and is limitless in it's ablility to control a weak mind.

Take a stroll down the halls of any mental facility for the criminaly insane and get an up close and personal view of what you condoning here.

Fear is what evil uses against mankind, it uses our weaknesses to get inside and take control by useing words to manipulate the thinking pattern, isolating and reprograming with mind altering drugs and other methods of manlipulation.

To kill a human being is bad enough, but to mutalate and dismember is a sickness of the soul. To mutalate and use ritualistic torture on infants in the name of some grotesk distorted religion is beyond human indurance and cannot be tolerated in any society.

There will never be peace and harmony as long as this kind of evil is present in the hearts and souls of humanity. If this behavior is punished by getting three meals, a bed, TV, computers, work out rooms,free schooling, free medical, dental, and congical visits, is this a punishment to befit the crime, if so then I must be on the wrong page.

What we draw to us we eventualy become. Evil must have a host to survive and must be feed. If you feed the demon it will grow and devour you. It feeds off of your weaknesses, your fears and your insecurities.

It dwells in dark places where the dreges of humanity gather, looking for a place to belong. It preys on the innocents of the needy and forgotton ones that slip through the cracks in the road.

Evil strokes you as it creeps into your soul and smiles prettily as it sucks the very essents from you. Leaving you empty with no will of your own.

You knew evil when you see it. It's cunning and sly, charming it's way into your life. You can feel it as the hair raises on the back of your neck and on your arms.(shudder).

I will stop here bc I do not want to draw evil to me by talking about it too much. Thinking it into exsistance.

I pray that my words here be washed clean in Infinate Light and that any residue from this conversation be disinagrated and dispuresed into the abbys and brings harm no to any person in this thread.

As it is asked, so shall it be.

Blessed Be.
sh

[mushie18]

I didn't know he gave lsd to his "children"(the very young kids he had on his ranch). I can't even imagine how that would effect the child. Anyone know any more info on this?

[PIXIEFIED]

didnt realise there was pages already posted

[Quest_techie]

sociopaths are usually charismatic, it's not because they're good looking, not because they have to be smart or anything, they just don't have their hang ups worrying about what they are doing, instead they are reading you, dinding out how to make you do what they want

it's kinda the same way animals have an almost precognitive sense of what people are going to do, they are watching us tense our muscles to turn while in our minds we are still certifying the descision

just instead of it being physical it's well mental and emotional, picking up cues that you aren't giving off intentionally


I mean if there was ever a sociopath, manson is it, a distinction between good and evil, but no\very little passive alarm system and even if it were there he likely wouldn't care

people are fascinated with him because of that charisma, because he used the trappings of something about peace and turned it so far into something about personal warfare and gratification.

[Ranger]

hes "children" wernt actually children, they were just dumb hippies in his cult

Pixiefied, a lot of his dumb hippie followers were lost little young runaways when he first got his hands on them, but the children I believe Mushie 18 was refering to were the really young preteens at the ranch.

SH, while I agree that he's a prime example of the need for a death penalty I say that not because I feel a need for punishment, but as a simple need on the part of humankind to practice self-defence. I'm quite willing to leave punishment to krama and or God/ess, a higher force usually much more inventive than myself.
Self-defence and defence of family are a responsibility however and I don't feel that 'life without parole' is a guarenteed permanent removal from society. Life sentences will always be at the mercy of the politicians and changeable at thier whim.

[Biggen]

just visited that site u all and u outta check it out outta check out the photos u know this man verry well could be our savior and our gouv wouldent care i was just arrested for crimes i didnt committ and it took me 5 weeks to proove i didnt whille my 2 darlin children had to be without there father and 3 days before court the deputy sherriff called threating me with my life and shit telling me not to go to court and when i called the fbi and his srgnt they didnt care 1 bit i went to court they realized they didnt have a case but still did they care hell no now i have no worries and they know im innocent but still the caos continues even though i have no more court mabe he is innocent why not give the man the bennafit of doubt what harm can he do us now...mabe he can teach us all something and there is plenty we all need to learn still...so charlie i belive u should be free hell if u molest little kids u get less time and i belive thats worse than fucking murder..dead people dont have to go throughout life thinking about what has been done to them............just rember folks...we scorn a child who is affraid of the dark but the true tragity in life is when grown men are scared of the light
This is exactly where I didn't want this thread to go....Ah, well...everyone's entitled.

[shameless_heifer]

yes, ranger I agree to that, It's basicly what I meant.
I dont understand why they keep these preditors alive and well fed. What if they were to excape or god forbid be paroled and let loose on humanity again.

I dont beleive in mindless killing, but I do believe in the death penalty in some cases.
With manson, Lecter, mcvey and the rest of the serial killers at the head of the line.
Out of preservation for the children to come.

[hippiestead]

Charlie is a waste of good jail space; the ego he has now is much more of a danger than he was when he was playing out his mind games on society.
Cinnamom has read a great deal about Charlie & his family. Charlie is short, about 5'2'' and had charisma plus the ability to spot 'lost sheep', his favorite targets for his cult. He also used many psychological tactics for recruitment. A tall 'Charlie' who was part of the Manson family was also known as 'Tex'-given name Charles Watson; members purposely switched names around to create confusion making it easier to avoid jailtime for the theft that they so often took part in.
The LaBianca murders were random, Charlie was trying to show his people how to do it 'right' without the chaos of the Tate murders. The Tate murders were a partial retaliation against Terry Melcher, son of Doris Day, who was close with the Wilsons. Brian or Dennis had promised to set Charlie up with a record producer but blew Charlie off at Terry's urging. Charlie had been to the house and knew the layout.
Charlie had nothing to do with the writing of the Beatle's song Helter Skelter; he had delusions that the Beatles were speaking to him through their music. He did, however, accuse the Beach Boys of stealing one of his songs.

and if any of Charlie's followers had followed the hippie philosophy of Questioning Authority, the murders would have never happened. So many years later & people still want to know about him-very sad really-guess there wasn't enough media attention for the Haight Family groups who went on to do good things...........

[JayBird]

yes, ranger I agree to that, It's basicly what I meant.
I dont understand why they keep these preditors alive and well fed. What if they were to excape or god forbid be paroled and let loose on humanity again.

I dont beleive in mindless killing, but I do believe in the death penalty in some cases.
With manson, Lecter, mcvey and the rest of the serial killers at the head of the line.
Out of preservation for the children to come.
I agree. I'm a long time supporter of the death penalty. I just don't like the way it's carried out, like putting down a sick animal. I favor hanging or shooting. I think we're safe from Lecter, though.;)

[JayBird]

Helter Skelter was supposedly an amusement park ride in England. Somehow it became a metaphor for armageddon. Why? Only Charlie knows, but he's been diagnosed by prison shrinks as a schizophrenic.

[crummyrummy]

Charles Manson auditioned to be in the Monkees


edit: ok, I decided to see if what I had heard on a radio show once was accurate, so I cut and pasted my post into the google box, and first result dispelled the myth I repeated. my bad for spreading misinformation.http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

[hug a bahaii today]

nothing like frightening violent minds with something as peace-centered as this "mantra" of hinduism....lol
i love it!! carry on with that dude, maybe it'll spread!............"aummmm"

[rangerdanger]

-Charlie had one of the most abusive childhoods you can imagine.

-All of his "followers" did so voluntarily.

-Charlie was never accused of killing anyone in the Tate/La Bianca murders.
He was accused of telling some of his fellow mis-fits to kill, but Lt. Calley was only jailed for months after telling his followers to slaughter everyone in Mai Lei (over 600 men women and children, making Charlie look like a punk amatuer).

The death penalty is wrong because sometimes innocent people are tortured to death (executed). That's why the death penalty does not exist in most countries.

Back to the topic:
I was at a party back in '66 that Manson also attended. I have no independant recollection of him, but I visited the Spahn ranch shortly after Manson was convicted and met remnants of his "family".

[Skidrow Eddie]

Poor Charlie! What a bum rap that despicable low life piece of shit got!

Oh well, I guess that's what you get for hangin' around teenaged white trash runaways!

[hippiestead]

Charlie didn't kill the Labiancas, he was accused of tying them up, not sure if it was 'proven' or not-guess i should have mentioned that before. It was a 'quieter, less fear' thing.

What do people think of putting all mass murders in an Alaskan prison, made into a Survivor-type setting; big enough to make them hunt and build their own dwellings, make their own tools to hunt, be humane and give then the ability to grow a garden or choose to hunt by setting small wild game in the enclosure; with walls to keep them in, guard posted with 'shoot to kill' orders on escape?

It be cheaper and it'd put them in the middle of their own game; let it support itself by becoming a reality show (probally giving away a billion dollar idea here, oh well...)

Cinnamom

[Xac]

Charlie didn't kill the Labiancas, he was accused of tying them up, not sure if it was 'proven' or not-guess i should have mentioned that before. It was a 'quieter, less fear' thing.

What do people think of putting all mass murders in an Alaskan prison, made into a Survivor-type setting; big enough to make them hunt and build their own dwellings, make their own tools to hunt, be humane and give then the ability to grow a garden or choose to hunt by setting small wild game in the enclosure; with walls to keep them in, guard posted with 'shoot to kill' orders on escape?

It be cheaper and it'd put them in the middle of their own game; let it support itself by becoming a reality show (probally giving away a billion dollar idea here, oh well...)

Cinnamom
When punishment becomes entertainment it will just be another sign we are losing our way.

[hippiestead]

But watching reality TV is punishment-least it is for us

seriously tho-not as much into the entertainment aspect as having mass murders & people who will never get out of jail pay their own way. 'Course we think jailing drug offenders who don't have violent backgrounds is wrong.....

What's really sad (or maybe scary) is that some people would actually watch it!

[rangerdanger]

"What do people think of putting all mass murders in an Alaskan prison, made into a Survivor-type setting; big enough to make them hunt and build their own dwellings, make their own tools to hunt, be humane and give then the ability to grow a garden or choose to hunt by setting small wild game in the enclosure; with walls to keep them in, guard posted with 'shoot to kill' orders on escape?"

France did that. That wonderful idea was called Devil's Island.

A few years ago, 2 teen-age members of an Indian tribe up in I think Alaska beat a pizza-delivery guy almost to death on an Indian reservation.
They were tried in Indian court, found guilty and were sentenced innovatively.
They were taken by boat to a remote unihabited island, given a box of matches and a hatchet and were told that someone would be back in a couple of years to pick them up.

[Xac]

A few years ago, 2 teen-age members of an Indian tribe up in I think Alaska beat a pizza-delivery guy almost to death on an Indian reservation.
They were tried in Indian court, found guilty and were sentenced innovatively.
They were taken by boat to a remote unihabited island, given a box of matches and a hatchet and were told that someone would be back in a couple of years to pick them up.
I dont suppose you know how that ended?

[PIXIEFIED]

one burnt himself to death, the other suffered a nasty nick on his thumb.

[hippypaul]

Sad to say but manson was an abuser writ large. He found a pool of victims and was at the top end of the asocial scale but there are many little mansons still in this world. They abuse wives, children, and get ordinary people to do there biding. Many of the ones who have learned to mimic the rest of us are in positions of power. You cannot point to manson and say – this man stands alone.

[THUDLY]

I met Manson in 1967 in San Francisco's Golden Gate Park. He had just gotten out of prison and didn't have his legions of followers yet. I was coming down from my first acid trip (purple haze) when I noticed him staring intently at me. Something drew me to him, but when I neared him and he offered me a cookie, I was repelled by the sheer evil he exuded. I could actually feel the force of his negative being. I hastily split, but that feeling of utter evil I didn't forget, and a few years later, when he was arrested and his photo was on TV, I remembered his face.

And, yes, he was a short person but so were Hitler, Napoleon, Mao, Stalin and other human beasts.

I'm only surprised that more ignorant hippies didn't take up with him. Believe me, there was no shortage of them. Me, I was from the beatnik scene and much preferred the East and West Villages. For me, the 60's were about New York City.

[Nathan11]

Ha.
My friend is related to Charlie.
Wierd.

[HotelAfrique]

Ok.

[Xac]

HotelAfrique, Hitler was Adored by thousands of german women and many people found him "great and wonderful" charlie is and has always been a sociopath, he has been in and out of jail his whole life, are you going to tell me the establishment was threatened by him then?

In my opinion charlie is no better then the government that you think is so threatened by him. Do you think bush should be held accountable for his wars? he didnt actually kill anyone in iraq for example.

[shameless_heifer]

I would like to ask all you non amaricans. How clean are the closets that your government hides it's skeletens in. You think the US is the only corrupt governmental system. They are all corrupt so get over yourselves.

[peaceful chaos]

any government that locks up gardeners and shamans above other innocent people is definetly currupt,and the majority of them do have laws against such people so i'd have to agree with shameless.

[HotelAfrique]

Ok.

[Xac]

HotelAfrique, i agree they should have kept charlie in prison, infact when they released him, he didnt want to go. Playing the age card hey? so in your opinion wisdom is directly proportional to age?

You say charlie had such great insight and the ability to change the way people see and think but in the end what did he do with it? he ordered his followers to kill and fear their fellow citizens and you know what? thats what alot of americans go through every day the only difference between charlie and everyone else is he had a messiah complex. fact is he didnt change anything for the better and he didnt use his influence for good.

[HotelAfrique]

No, not age, most people regardless of age are pretty narrow minded with little knowledge or common sense. The difference is that unless you are somehow very exceptional (different), your opinions are only opinions, because you have had very little experience of life. Comeback after you have done a degree and postgrad in some solid subject like Sociology, or Psychology, or criminology or politics or History with a strong human element and then a few more years of work, life, travel, ups and downs, this and that, and then I could maybe take you seriously.

And by the way, I didn't say they should keep him in prison.

You obviously have no understanding of the 1960's. If you want to understand Charles Manson, you need to understand late 60's America. Go out and by a book mate, and not one of those shitty little ones either. Get a good book with 2000 pages that isn't written by some right-wing fascist, christian nutter or pro-Israeli Jewish chosen-one freak, and read it, and then maybe you will learn something. Argue all you want. You know little, as I knew little but thought I knew everthing at your age.

Teenagers always think they know everything.

[shameless_heifer]

Hotel, This IS my forum and altho I may not agree with your belief I do beleive you have the right to voice your opinon. But seeing how OUR constitution does not include your counrty. I will warn you that anymore degrading remarks from you about my beloved Texas, the state that has opened it's heart and home to over 2,500.000 refugees your coments are void and uninteresting and if they dont stop your outta here.

You sit there and condem other's action from your comfy chair and speculate. Your not even from this country yet your think you know it all... appearently you know nothing except for what your pompas self what's to spew out on innocent people.

Either lighten up or stay out of my forums. I can and will delete your ugly post and ban you from my forum. You know very little to nothing about any thing we have been discussing here, you just want to blow, go blow somewhere else.

And further more, I dont care if you THINK I'm a hippie or not, it's my life and my memories. You my biased friend need to search for your Higher self and stop thinking with your little mind. Your EGO ridden little self.

And that goes for anyone wanting to come into my forums and breed dis-content. Play nice.

Shameless Heifer MODERATOR

[pabloman]

Way to go heiferhttp://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/icons/newicons/icon6.gif

[all_rhodesian_reject]

Teenagers always think they know everything.Dude...its four years difference....get over yourself

[Nathan11]

This Hotel guy's a joke.

[Ranger]

Firstly, I don't believe that at eighteen you (Xac) are able to form a well-rounded opinion on this subject;
> *LOL* And at 22 you are child? You read one book and decide to ignore the testamony of previous posters who were there and met Charlie and his 'family' of zombies! Many cultures around the world including those in the numerical majority see no difference between an 18 year old and a child under the age of 25 so why don't you try getting down off your high (rocking) horse and listening to your elders sonny.

giving the authority for a a war for profit which has led to the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent people is a lot different to Charlie's authority to kill a few people.
> Again with the numbers thing!

Why? Because this was a period in time when there was a lot of change, and confusion and LSD and the war in Vietnam and frustration and the hippy movement and all that that involved.
> And this is so different from today? Having been there at the time and looking around me now it seems only the names have changed to protect the guilty!

What good does it do to keep him locked up? Is there not such a thing as reform, isn't that what prison is meant to do?
> No! One must judge the intentions of an institution by its actions not the cheap words it's PR people spew to lull the taxpayers. judging by it's actions and the return rate prisons are about nothing but retribution.

Sure Charlie was what many would call crazy and should have been put into an institution of some sort to try to find a solution to his problems.And also, if it was decided that he was a threat, then maybe they should have kept keep him in, but there are plenty of other potentially dangerous people out on the street, who have been let out from mental institutions, who are controlled through medication; we call it care in the community. Sure some of these go on to reoffend, but they are in the minority. So why not let Charlie out? Because Charlie is not crazy. To quote a political phrase: "He had a moment of madness" and this clouded his rationality. He was suffering from illusions of grandeur and was dangerous but curable.
> When you have spent five minutes alone in a room with him or any of his 'family' with no guards nearby come back here and tell us that. Until then I suggest you listen to those who have.

I surely wouldn't want to live with Charlie, but I still have no doubt that he is kept in prison purely for polical reasons rather than social.
> Prior to his arrest Charlie was no more political than your average con man and is no more political today than your average serial killer who finds God in prison.

So come back after fifteen years and then give your comment because you are obviously a person with a limited understanding of everything I have just talked about.
> Listen to yourself youngster!

>>>>>>>As for the lady from Texas, no hippy or former hippy would live in this red-neck shit-hole.
> Oh you've been there? Or are you speaking through your hat as usual?

So I don't think you are, or ever were, a hippy. Living in Haight Ashbury doesn't make your a hippy or ever were one, the same as living in Jamaica doesn't mean you are a dreadlock (Rasta).
> Again you speak of things you know not! I knew the lady in the Haight at that time as did others here and it's her actions that I judge her hippness by not her location then or now. Her family of that time and place were the people who made the support structure of the '60s. They created and made possible the Digger's Free Store, the Haight Ashbury Free Clinic, H.A. Switchboard, and much more of the infrastructure of the times. btw; I never encountered any of Charlie's 'family' contributing to the general community in any way.

>>>>>>>>As for corrupt or bad governments, sure, that is what politics is all about. The difference is that the US foreign policy has led to deaths of millions in the past fifty years. And they continue to fight these wars, as in Iraq.
> Just remember the apple never falls far from the tree and America owes it's political accumen to dear Mother England.

So to all of you: get some facts and figures and read a few academic books and stay off that fiction shit.
> As for you child get your head out of the books and get some experience before you try telling those who were there what they saw and heard!

And don't give me all that "evil" Christian fundamentalist bullshit Shameless aka Shameful.
> As far as evil is concerned until you have done doctorate work in comparitive religion don't try to peg it solely to 'Christianity'. It is a concept common to many religions. Not believing in evil is about as healthy as not believing in tigers just because you've never met one.

As to your final remark "Shameless aka Shameful" this falls within my concept of a personal attack and childish name calling and as a Co-Moderator of this Forum if anymore of that sort of thing if she does't see fit to ban you I wiill.

[HotelAfrique]

Don't argue then, if you haven't come to argue, because arguing is exactly what you are doing in the above message. You see this is the problem with you Christian fundamentalist, Texan, red-necks, just like all those fundamentalist Muslims that you despise, you don't listen; you have made up your minds and that is it. Well let me tell you something, you red-necks are living in the dark ages, we don't live in Europe like you do there in your military, gun-ridden, segregated, poverty and crime ridden, imperialist, I have more than you do, and oh he is so strange because he is a homosexual, state. We are much more liberal over here. Face it, your not a hippy, hippies don't have your values, and neither do liberals, your a christian fundamentalist; you may have been San Francisco, but you never were a hippy and that's why your now in Texas: land of the red-neck and George Bush the dimwit and all his murderous cronies.

As for an ego, I have a lot less than you and understand a lot more than you having wrote a mayor thesis on it as part of my Degree in Politics of South Asia and Eastern Religions, so don't talk about ego to me. You see, I like to argue and I'm not afraid, unlike you, to admit it. Why? Because people like yourself are full of shit fake hippies.

As for all the migrants you talk about; well somebody as to clean your toilets and serve you all the junk food that you Americans love.

As for the USA, it has produced and continues to produce great artists in every field and there are many really interesting and wonderful people, but a larger part are pretty ignorant of the world in which they live.

Stop arguing and I'll stop arguing. Or delete me from this forum if you only like to here the sound of your own voice.

[HotelAfrique]

I'm 30, not 22. Check my profile again and do the maths, you dimwit. What possibly gave you the idea that I'm 22?

As for the ban, who cares, i don't care about bans, especially when it concerns you red-necks. Ban me off the whole site if you want. For me this site is only for relaxation, it's not my life.

As for your comparative religious studies, been there, done it, been around India, Pakistan, Iran and twenty other countries and done a lot more things besides. What have you red-necks done?

Get it into your heads, your red-necks, not hippies. I'm not a hippy either, and I don't think there is a hippy on this site, despite the name. We're all hypocrites when it comes to professing that were hippies. Why? Because hippies don't use computers as frequent as us, if at all.

As for the numbers thing, no, there is a difference red-reck, killing 50,000 plus innocent Iraqis is a lot worse than a few rich people from the Hollywood Hills. You see if they had killed a few black people in some black ghetto, no one would have made a fuss about the whole thing. Oh no, but she was white, and pregnant. But what about all the pregnant Iraqi women who are having your bombs dropped on them every day, thanks to all you tax paying American citizens.

As for me talking crap, as is suggested by one red-neck above, the only thing I have to say to that, is that you red-necks don't have the capacity to debate on my level, and I don't care how arrogant that may seem to you all.

Is there not an intelligent person on this forum?

[HotelAfrique]

Anyone with a name like Ranger with the photo of some guy posing with his gun, has got to be a Red-Neck.

[HotelAfrique]

As for doing a PHD. Got better things to do than spend five years in some stuffy library reading dusty books. Been there done it.

As for Mother England, your right, there a load of Fascists as well; I'm Welsh, we've got better things to do than killing people for profit.

As for Haight Ashbury, what did Haight Ashbury ever do for the world?

Manson is not a Serial Killer, and it would make no difference to me if he was; I just hate Red-Necks, injustice, and the artificial shaping of society; am I getting to intellectual for you Red-Necks? Manson is probably a Red-Neck himself. I'm losing you now aren't I?

As for Texas, everyone knows that Texans are Red-Necks; news travels fast you know. Name one famous liberal Texan?

As for evil, it doesn't exist. It is all in the mind. Common Ranger, you should know that, or was Buddhism too heavy for you.

[Ranger]

The Forum Guidelines state
Flaming/Trolling: Flames are posts intended to insult and provoke. Posters who speak incessantly and/or rabidly on some relatively uninteresting subject or with a patently ridiculous attitude will be banned. Repeated posts directed with hostility at a particular person or group of people or their beliefs will be cause for banning. Any individual who chronically trolls, who regularly posts arguments, flames or personal attacks for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion will be banned.
And you were required to read and agree to these guidelines before posting. Your assumptions, personal attacks, and hateful name calling on what seems to be a racial and/or religious basis go beyond the bounds of this forum therefore you will no longer be welcome in this forum.

[HotelAfrique]

Don't debate if you cannot debate. Bye

[shameless_heifer]

I should have stated that Ranger and me are Co-Mods here. WE are both Original Hippies from Haight/Ashbury from the earily 60s to the late 70's for me and Ranger just left Haight Dst. two months ago. We were both active in many turning events and happenings in the community and lived/live the hippie lifestyle.

We are all fortunate to have Ranger here with his vast knowledge of the Haight Happenings then and now. Ranger is a wealth of imformation, and is one of the kyndest dudes I know. Ranger will also tell you like it is and you know when your with him your back is covered.

Thank you Ranger.

I would also like to say that a 'healthy debate' is welcome here, but dis-respecting other posters will not be tolerated.

[THUDLY]

I have a question for either Shameless Heifer or Ranger: I lived in Haight-Ashbury during The Summer of Love-- I left S.F. right after The Death Of Hippie Parade-- but that October day (the sixth, I think) in 1967, I wandered into the Parade by accident and ended up being one of the lead pallbearers of the "dead hippie" (actually some dude who pretended being "dead". I and five others carried him the whole march (ah!, I was young and strong then!) to the Panhandle where everything was set afire (not the "dead hippie of course) until the fire trucks came. A few days after that, I hitch-hiked back to N.Y.C., where I had a loft at 6 Bleecker (the same building, incidentally, where the notorious A.J.Weberman of Garbology and Dylanology fame lived one floor below me-- but that's another story). Imagine my surprise when, a few weeks later, a friend came bearing a copy of the Sunday New York Times Magazine in which was an article about "The Last Days of Haight-Ashbury" or some such rubbish. Lo and behold!-- there was a photo of me (with long hair, beard, Lennon-glasses and love beads on the left in the picture wearing a black patterened tee-shirt!)


I had a copy, but somehow over the years it disappeared (my mother probably threw it out as she did my priceless baseball cards and comics from the 50's). I went to the Reading Library and retrieved it on microfilm and made a copy, but it was of extremely poor quality. I wrote to The New York Times to no avail-- they didn't even reply.

My question is: do you know the name and address of the photographer or how I could find them? There were many photographers that day, as well as film crews from the local TV stations. Hell, it wouldn't have to be the same photographer from The N.Y. Times-- I'm sure other photographers had just as good pictures. I'd like quality enlargements to give to my children and grandchildren; I'll pay well.

If you can help me out, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks.

[shameless_heifer]

I thought I had answers this already, but it seems my responce dissapeared.
At any rate check out Larry Keenan's website and email him to see if he had taken the pic. Larry did a lot of photographs of that era. I found a pic he took of me on Haight Street in his site, you might be there also. Best of luck Thudly in your search.

SH

[Zer0_II]

There has been a LOT of misinformation and speculation posted in this thread. I'm not here to argue Manson's guilt or innocence. However the man was completely shafted in the courtroom. I don't believe I've ever heard of a defendent being barred from testifying at his own trial. I really don't get why so many people act as if Manson was the devil himself. The only reason he received so much attention was because he was involved in the slaying of a famous Hollywood actress. Keep buying into the mass media's portrayal of just another man. He doesn't have powers. He isn't the devil. He's just another troubled human being, whether he's guilty or innocent. The people who commited the murders in his name did so at their own free will, and they also enjoyed it. Those of you who have the nerve to call yourselves Christians and sit here and make your holier than thou remarks about another person are nothing but hypocrites. It doesn't matter if that person is Charles Manson. Some of you need to come down off of your high horse (mods especially). You have no right to judge. I'm not even a Christian, but even I can tell you Jesus said "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". I see a lot of stones being casted.

[shameless_heifer]

Zero, this is a dicussion forum, where we discuss things. AS you we have the right to debate, but we (the mods) have to keep things from getting out of controll, as to say it is our 'jobs' to protect our posters from being harrassed. We take our time in the forums seriously as this is our place to connect with likeminded ones.

As for Charlie, I don't think you never met him or his band you can not say either that we are wrong in our thinking. You yourself are condemming us for our beleifs and our personal feelings about Manson and his band of murders. Who do you think taught his followers to think like they do. Charles Manson!. You my friend most likely never a hippie or engaged in the hippie lifestyle. It is YOU that is condemming us for what we think.
And who made this a religious discussion.
There were not just the Tate and La Bianca murders, there were several more. Does the president go into the battlefield and fight hand to hand combat.. no he does not. He leads men to War, as did Manson. He was their stratigic commander. Their LEADER, do you think they acted alone, does a body move without the brain telling it what to do. You can confine the body but not the brain. And you want this brain out on the street to do yet more dispicable things.

And to address Evil, when I say evil I mean the black hole of negitivity where all good and rightful thinking is disbanded and disolved. Where light can no longer be seen and your are cut off from The Infinite Source. Where hopelessness and dispare dwell, where greed and EGO reside, where truth and justice are no longer revered but the seething loathsomeness of power and corrpution consume humanity.

If you have read any of my or Rangers other posts in other forums you would be better able to JUDGE US. So who is on the High Horse. We have a right to our knowledgeble opinions but there is a difference bewteen you and ones like Ranger and me, you see, we were THERE and expierenced it, we came in contact with their hidious family.. You just read about it. It's like eating chocolate. You can read or hear about what it taste like but you will never KNOW what it taste like till you experience it's flavor.

Now. If there's not anymore judgemental remarks, I'd like to get back to my work.

sh

[Zer0_II]

Zero, this is a dicussion forum, where we discuss things. AS you we have the right to debate, but we (the mods) have to keep things from getting out of controll, as to say it is our 'jobs' to protect our posters from being harrassed. We take our time in the forums seriously as this is our place to connect with likeminded ones.
I will say my peace and leave it at that. It would be rather pointless to continue this any further. I understand perfectly well what your "job" is. I happen to be the administrator of my own forum. I understand that part of your job is to protect the posters of this forum. You also have to realize where to draw the line. If you will very carefully read over the post that Ranger reposted you will notice that both parties made "harrassing remarks". Calling someone "youngster" could be considered harrassment in the form of age descrimination if it were used at the work place. We are not at the work place though. We are on a discussion board. It should be a little more relaxed here than it is at work though. It would be great if everyone had a jolly good time all the time. Unfortunately we all happen to be flawed human beings and things don't exacly work out as planned. Sometimes people get a little carried away in the heat of the moment during a post. I know that I personally feel so passionately inside about certain things that I tend to end up writing a very long rant without even realizing it (such as this one :) ) sometimes. Mods tend to be the judge, jury, and executionerss in a forum. There have been a lot of very good people to leave these forums because of "trigger happy" mods who are eager to ban. I just think that it would be a better idea to send someone a PM asking them to tone it down a bit, rather than publically berating the person and threatening to ban them. That's just my take on the situation. :|


As for Charlie, I don't think you never met him or his band you can not say either that we are wrong in our thinking. You yourself are condemming us for our beleifs and our personal feelings about Manson and his band of murders. Who do you think taught his followers to think like they do. Charles Manson!. You my friend most likely never a hippie or engaged in the hippie lifestyle. It is

I never condemned you. It isn't my place to judge you. I merely stated that by judging and condemning another man that you were being hypocritical in comparison to statements you had previously made. That doesn't mean that I think you are a horrible person inside and deserve to burn in eternal hellfire or anything :) I have no doubt that Manson encouraged his followers to think as he did, but those people should also be held accountable for the murders that they carried out with their own free will. You are right about me never being a Hippie. Unfortunately I didn't get to choose what year I would be born in. You shouldn't assume anything about my "lifestyle" though. That is a different story.


YOU that is condemming us for what we think.
And who made this a religious discussion.

As I stated above.. I never condemned you. It isn't my place to pass judement. I never intended this to be a religious discussion, nor do I perceive it that way. I see it more like a discussion about character.


There were not just the Tate and La Bianca murders, there were several more. Does the president go into the battlefield and fight hand to hand combat.. no he does not. He leads men to War, as did Manson. He was their stratigic commander. Their LEADER, do you think they acted alone, does a body move without the brain telling it what to do. You can confine the body but not the brain. And you want this brain out on the street to do yet more dispicable things.

I do not believe that either war or murder are justifiable. I never said that Charles Manson shouldn't be in prison. I just stated that he wasn't given a fair trial. He is an imperfect human being no matter how much you despise him. He still deserves a fair trial just like anyone else though. He was not allowed to testify at his own trial. The reason stated was that he might "persuade the jury that he was innocent" with his "powers". I thought the point of testifying at your own trial was to persuade the jury of your innocence??? That is what I mean when I say that he was shafted. Regardless of his crime and moral character he still deserved a fair trial. Again I am against war and murder. I do not believe that it is right in any case. I do not believe that Charles Manson should be walking the streets, nor that he even wants to himself.


And to address Evil, when I say evil I mean the black hole of negitivity where all good and rightful thinking is disbanded and disolved. Where light can no longer be seen and your are cut off from The Infinite Source. Where hopelessness and dispare dwell, where greed and EGO reside, where truth and justice are no longer revered but the seething loathsomeness of power and corrpution consume humanity.

I'm not touching that one here. That's an example of passion taking you over during a post, which I was talking about above. I like it though... very poetic :)


If you have read any of my or Rangers other posts in other forums you would be better able to JUDGE US. So who is on the High Horse. We have a right to our knowledgeble opinions but there is a difference bewteen you and ones like Ranger and me, you see, we were THERE and expierenced it, we came in contact with their hidious family.. You just read about it. It's like eating chocolate. You can read or hear about what it taste like but you will never KNOW what it taste like till you experience it's flavor.

Once again I'm not trying to judge you. I just happen to be a blunt person who isn't afraid to speak his mind. I just didn't agree with you. I wasn't damning you or anything. I'm a pretty humble person, and there is no high horse to come off of. I already stated my opinion on Manson above. I never once mentioned that I supported any of the crimes that he may have commited. I believe that you you just didn't understand my intent.


Now. If there's not anymore judgemental remarks, I'd like to get back to my work.

sh

and I'll get back to mine. Thank you for your time. Have a nice day. :)

[shameless_heifer]

When one takes on the responsiblity of Mod, they are taking responsiblity for everyone in their forum(s). Neither Ranger nor I have banned anyone, nor have we asked for banishment of anyone either.
WE are the judge, jury and hangman. That comes with the territory.
When a poster gets blasted for age color or creed, it is up to the mods to clean up the forum of the trash being strown about. We don't just delete or ban at will. We talk it over and deside what is best for the forum and the posters within.
We come here to reconnect with our people, we come with Love and a Unity that binds us together. This forum is like our living room.
When someone comes to your home and spews garbage your on your floor dont you ask them to stop, and if they do not respect you wishes in your on living room, then don't you ask them to leave.
When a person just comes to disrupt the flow and hands out insults, then it's time to go. There are other forums that cater to this kind of poster. But this is NOT one of those forums.
If you would notice, the flamer(s) was new and he/she was not alone, there were three or four of them that came to Hip Forums almost on the same day and proceeded to flame the forums. We investagated, we look up all the posts that the one in question made. If they follow a hurtful path we take note. We will let them hang themselves with their own unenlightened behavior. Then we warn them. If they persist then we delete their posts, if they still dont get it, and they contenue to flame, after careful consideration we will ban them temperarely.
What else do you want us to do. We're trying to protect you the best and only way we have.
I call it pulling WEEDS. This is The Garden and we must keep it WEED free to protect the tender plants that grow within. Otherwise the Garden would be full of WEEDS and no flowers will be able to survive in it.
I hope I'm making myself clear and not clouding the issue with the facts.

Brightest Blessings
SH

[shameless_heifer]

Now that we are totaly off subject. I'll try to bring it back around.

To All,
Have you ever met someone or a group of people that made your skin crawl and the hair stand up on the back of your neck. Like an inner bell going off inside your brain, like panic.

This is how evil makes you feel. It rubs against the grain of right thinking. It's your intuition warning you of present danger.

Manson and his 'family' made people feel like that.

[old tiger]

Shameless..

You're so right here..keep this garden free of rubbish..;)
I can clearly see that you have passed an important..
maybe the most important part of your life in Haight Ashbury..
that's where the hippie movement was born..and someone..
who has seen and been in that environment in San Francisco..
I have GREAT respect for..you are a lady with a great L...
and that shows in your postings...:)
A 1001 smiles
Emiel..

[old tiger]

Hey..
Concerning Manson..i would like to say this..
Manson was never a hippie in the real sense..
he misused his charismatic appeal to create a Manson family
around him..probably using LSD etc...practice of Satanism..
evil at its worst form..:mad: totally against any hippie ideal..
he thought of himself to be Jesus Christ..and he had something
with the Beatles and Helter Skelter..the killing of Tate..
was hot news..and in my opininin gave a bad light to hippiedom..
if you want to know more about Manson's life..look at this link..
http://www.carpenoctem.tv/killers/manson.html

Emiel

[Bluesbilly Dave]

I have no doubt that Manson encouraged his followers to think as he did, but those people should also be held accountable for the murders that they carried out with their own free will.

Manson and five others got the death penalty.The death penalty was later struck down in California.The surviving "Family" members are all serving life sentences,and always will be.

I do not believe that either war or murder are justifiable. I never said that Charles Manson shouldn't be in prison. I just stated that he wasn't given a fair trial. He is an imperfect human being no matter how much you despise him. He still deserves a fair trial just like anyone else though. He was not allowed to testify at his own trial. The reason stated was that he might "persuade the jury that he was innocent" with his "powers". I thought the point of testifying at your own trial was to persuade the jury of your innocence??? That is what I mean when I say that he was shafted.

He was allowed to testify outside the presence of the jury.This is not unusual when a judge wants to know whether someone's testimony has probitive value (actually addresses evidence).
There's an account of the trial here:
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/manson/mansonaccount.html

complete with a link to Manson's testimony.It looks to me like the judge allowed him to babble freely,essentially giving his version of a closing argument.In my opinion,he comes close to confessing a couple of times.At the end of the DA's very brief cross-examination,he challenges Manson to repeat what he has said in front of the jury.
Manson declined.
I don't think a jury listening to Charlie express his wish that he could disconnect his microphone and bash everybody's brains in with it would have changed the outcome of the trial.

[PlaceboAddikt]

im only 16, but the title of this thread caught my eye.
i havent read everyones replies, but i just thought id throw this out there. charles manson's myspace ----->
http://www.myspace.com/charlesmillesmanson

[Nathan11]

I doubt that site is really run by Charlie or anyone that is close to Charlie.
But, I have been wrong in the past...I'm only human.

[PlaceboAddikt]

yeah, nathan, thats what im thinking too. but i just wanted other people's input.

[Darius]

I honestly havent heard anything about him other than the first 2 pages of this forum, and this's and thats but you guys make him out to be some above god type person. All i know is what i think and what i assume. I know hes killed and from what i read on here he "has psychic powers" and is a satanist" this and that and blah blah blahhhh. People die every day. It doesnt take to much smarts to move people around where you want them without physically moving them. You dont even have to be some crazy killer. ya know give a dog a bone... Commeeee onnnn this shouldnt have gone on for 7 pages i couldnt stand to read two.

[georgia34]

I never had any contacts with him or anything coz I was scared of him. lol!

[shameless_heifer]

Fear is excatly what manson used on his victoms. I have never on my vast experience ever met anyone that held power over anothers FREE WILL. You can not be spelled, the Voodo can not get you if you keep your power within.

It is when you give in to fear, that you give your free will away to it and allow it to control you. To manipulate others with drugs and brainwashing on perhaps weak minded ones, was common in cults of this kind. Seeking out the lost and lonely souls that wander the emptiness inside, hoping to belong somewhere. Following false prophats, twisted and deverse in their teachings. I don't think anyone but his followers and himeslf held manson as Christ.. pffft.. he's wishes, nor is he the anti-christ.

Manson suffered from delussions of grandure and was a rock-star-wanna be gone mad. There was no Light in the man, only vile and discusting things. He will be held accountable for his dirty deeds as we all will in our time of reconning.

As far as throwing stones. Would you not throw stones at a rabid dog coming at you or your children. Forgive thoes who have found the Light and are humbled and are truely appauld by their own behavior. Forgive those who mourn for the devestation thay have thrust upon others. Forgive those who seek forgiveness. But don't be fooled by lip service. Ahhh, they find God in the jailhouse but few holdfast when they are released.
sh

[Darius]

Man lady your weird

[THUDLY]

My God! ShamelessHeifer is a good sort; there are scarce few in this world.

O.K., maybe she doesn't spell so well; makes typos, yah-dah-yaddo.

I still love her, and, if she's willing, bear my last child.

Jesus! I forgot! I promised that to Angel (of The Kitchen Table). Am I drunk again?

###########$##$$$$$$*******#######


Corbett's moderator has beaten him down with a 50 ounce Louisville Slugger, chained him fast and secure to a back-yard white-oak stump and called the local police, whom are getting mighty bored with the continual affair.

ENOUGH ALREADY!

[shameless_heifer]

I have been called worse I suppose, yes and it was recently, in this thread too. lol..(but it's all right ma, I'm only sighing). I'm not offended by wierd, I have been wierd all my life, that's part of what makes me a hippie, being different and speaking my mind. What I feel inside and being able to say it without FEAR.
I fear you not young one, when your journeys have led you on as many adventures as I have been on, then you will know what I speak of and why. Untill then be happy with who I am.. I am, cuz if your lucky you'll be here someday too.
Brightest Blessing my young friend.
sh.

[Nathan11]

I think Charlie is a great artist...but sure not Christ.

[Darius]

hah i dont have a problem speaking my mind. instead of the fifty people that kissed your ass and agreed with you on here i said something else... Get off your wise horse.

[shameless_heifer]

As stated in the Sticky at the top of this forum, this is a place for LIKEMINDED ONES, usually people who ARE likeminded agree on things.. sheesh. I don't really mind being called wierd, but this seems to me like your taking things personaly against me here.

I have not encountered any ass kissing, at least I have found no lip prints on my backside lately.

I don't see where anything I have posted has attacked you or done any harm to anyone in these forums. If you don't agree with the topic fine np, your intitled to your opinion and I am intitiled to mine, no need to be ugly acting about it and make it personal.

It has taken me 55 yrs to get horse Wise, I think I will ride it out thank you. It is afterall my horse. If you don't like this forum you are free to leave at any time. Like the sign says. Leave Your Guns At The Door. We are all brothers and sisters here.
Also feel free to post here as long as you don't make it personal against someone, esp the fricken Mods. Get your head right. If you are trolling you may be banned.

Best in Healing young brother.
sh

[shameless_heifer]

I also saw something partaining to Ranger calling someone a youngster. I think most everyone saw that Ranger was making a point as the dude was calling a poster down for his age and the dude was only a couple of yrs older. Ranger was trying to bring it to his attention by reffering to him as a youngster. as Ranger is much old then the dude. I see no harm there, Ranger was just holding a mirror up to the dude. K
sh

[Darius]

You leave your guns at the door, you'll be the first to get shot.

[shameless_heifer]

If no one is armed then there is np. If you don't start no chit, there won't be none.

[Darius]

doesnt even matter if theres chit to be started youll still be the first one shot

[eyesofthewhirled]

let, this too, roll off your back......

[Nathan11]

Why do people like to start trouble?

[shameless_heifer]

Darius. I am trying to be civil to you bc your just a rebelouse young person looking for something lacking in your life. If you persist in challenging me, I want you to reailize I have bigger guns then you, or should I say more power tools. I could ignore your insults but they are starting to clog up the Garden.
Now if you don't behave I will delete your posts. This will be your last warning. You have violated the users agreement 3 time in this one thread. Please I am asking you nicely to stop it now.

sh

[shameless_heifer]

doesnt even matter if theres chit to be started youll still be the first one shotI gonna let this slide.. if I felt threatend by you I may have taken it as a threat, but you I do not fear.
sh

[Darius]

Im not starteing trouble i think this has turned into the dumbest stuff ever, i was trying to butt in i guess in a wrong way, but everyones making manson out to be a god and i feel thats so stupid and wrong.

If you feel threatnd by your computer you need help.

[Nathan11]

Making Manson out to be a God?
I think you missed everything Shameless and Tiger said...

[shameless_heifer]

Darius,
I'm sorry, but I don't know what the hell your talking about now. Who is/was making manson out to be a god. Not me.
Where do you get, low life, scum sucking, murdering, perverted, childmolesting, preditor = God, from..
Darius, I think you need to start over. I don't really think you know what you are stepping off in.

Nathan , I just think Darius is a bit confused, not a bad sort really, just a little misinformed. We shall see. Maybe he needs some friends.

[old tiger]

Shameless..

Just don't get worked up by all this..;)
you know..in life there will always be good/bad..
positive/negative..etc...let's try to tolerate..
after all..this is a Hippie forum..free opinions..
yes..but..a hippie like you from Haight Asbury:)
well...just relax..think about these days..
San Francisco,you know..remember Scott Mc.Kenzie..
Emiel

[shameless_heifer]

Hey you ole Tiger (huggz),
I'm cool babe. My words may seem sharper then the intent. I know you do not think this way Tiger-Man. But some come in just to harrasss, it's some times difficult to define the ones that are searching for answers and the ones that get their jollies berating others.
I am giving Darius a second chance to help him understand a little better, how the Garden works. Why we came and that we don't take no chit, we didn't take any in the 60s and we don't now. Some have the mis-conception that hippies are weaklings and let others walk on them in the name of peace. Or that they are burnt out druggies and can't hold their own in a conversation.
Darius has taken it upon himself to put me in my place, well this is my place. He made this thread and things said personnaly against me right up to the point he made a halfassed threat of shooting me. I let this slide also, and gave him a chance to re-think his attacks on me. I would not have done this if I thought that it was truly his desire to have me shot.

The last one that came in and tried to slaughter me, Ranger took care of. (Thank you Ranger), but I can not have Ranger came to rescure me everytime I get trolled. I have to let the trollers know that I, myself can handle the rift raft that seem to love to taunt me.. I'm a big girl and got my street smarts at a very young age.

I would also like to add, this thread is NOT about me, so lets just get back on subject and leave personalities out of it.

In Love and Light
sh

[old tiger]

Well said,Shameless...as usual..
Nobody will harass you..because we will defend you..
I hope Darius considers to smoke the peace pipe:)
Come on..let's be positive..the war in Vietnam is over..
about Manson I told my thing..and I stick to what I said..
Emiel

[Darius]

If you guys read my first post i wasnt trying to start anything. I do apologize for the "weird" comment but i dont know what else to call your posts going on and on about manson or a cult or what it was that first person type stuff. Its just strange to me. I sayed i only went through the first two pages and knew nothing of this guy other than him killing and i didnt learn much.

I never made a threat about a gun. You made the comment to leave your gun at the door and that being a known saying i said the person who leaves their gun at the door is the first person to get shot. I dont know how this came off as a threat. I dont mess around on the internet to much i know alot of people that lead internet lives and live on forums and in and out of differnet places. Im sorry that im coming off as an ass.

[junkhead]

Wow. I didn't think Charlie was that tall though. Anyway, what I'm curious about is how he was able to manipulate people the way he did. You gotta admit, he wasn't a very attractive guy. Was it drugs? Personality? Being at the right place at the right time? I'll never understand it.

nothing really
most people are born to be followers
its very easy to manipulate people because most people are stupid,especially the type of idealistic people who are hippys

[shameless_heifer]

TskTsk, stupid hippies? Not another one. Good Grief. Are they sending them in one at a time to taunt us.
If you think hippies are stupid, then what are you doing in a HIPPIE Website. Arent you afraid someone will think YOUR a Stupid Hippie for being here. Do you fall into the "MOST PEOPLE' catagory junkhead, bc your not sounding too smart here.
sh

[Ranger]

does anyone think that the veggies, herbs and flowers in this garden may be feeling a little depressed these days with all the negative type conversations flying around? Personally I think if those of you who have not had experience with back to the land life should sit back and listen....y'all may learn something you never knew rather than thinking you do.... oh btw this is not Ranger but Rangers old lady, Rita

[old tiger]

Shameless,Ranger...

Sure..you are both right..
Don't take any attack too personal..;)
On internet you will always have people who disagree..
or agree..with any given topic..try to make a fist in your
pocket..real hippies don't flame..don't insult others..:)
The ones who do..well..that's their lookout..
I have great respect for old hippies..but also for young hippies..
without young hippies..our ideas and movement will finish..
and therefore..a 1000 cheers to all young hippies here..
they deserve the respect for speaking out..only when they
directly open their mouth in a very negativ way..
towards any hippie belief or principles..well..then I will give
them full shit back..nobody will touch or destroy our ideas:&
Emiel.

[shameless_heifer]

It is not when a seeker of truth comes and questions, it's when ones that act like they do not like hippies or our ideals that come in a Hippie Website and talks down to us, or about us that I have to think they are trolling. If what they are saying has a reference to what the topic is, or if they just come to throw garbage on us while we are having a peaceful conversation about whatever.
One with any Class does not go to some ones home and tell them they are fucked up for thinking or living like they do. They would be shown the door. If they don't like the topic, there are plenty of other forums in here that may have something that they are interested in. If they don't have something to add to the topic and just say how stupid it or we are for having it then it would point to the direction of them just here to make trouble.

I am a Hippie, I have been one as long as I can remember. When you step on hippie toes, your stepping on mine. When you come into someones place and want to sit at the table and belong you can't come in throwing disrepective comments around and think it's cool. If you have something to say about it say it, but don't make it personal on our group or any individual that is at the table. Lets just keep personalities out of it.

I had to work hard and scrap to get where I am today, nothing was handed to me. I think Rita is right on, if you don't know about something, sit back and listen and learn from ones that do. We are students and teachers here, what we learn helps us grow, then we pass it on. If it doesn't resonate with you, just go on about your journey untill you find what does. No need to get ugly acting and start chit some poor Mod will have to clean up.

This thread has been drug off topic three times now. Maybe we need a 'Rants and Raves' thread for all the disgruntled posters that don't like certin topics, that way they won't disturb the threads and thay can speak their mind and blow off steam. Perhaps someone will open one.

sh

[junkhead]

i never professed myself a hippy
and i posted because i had an opinion on what he said
if you read my post you will see that i didn't say hippies where stupid i said most PEOPLE are stupid particually the type of people who are hippies
and they are most ''hippies'' are idealistic, ignorant or living in a world that doesnt exist
don't be so fucking thin-skinned, i was giving my opinion

[shameless_heifer]

nothing really
most people are born to be followers
its very easy to manipulate people because most people are stupid,especially the type of idealistic people who are hippys
I don't know about anyone else, but it sounded to me like you were calling we hippies stupid. not just stupid, but especially stupid. And to me that is a slur against us. Manson was NOT a hippie he was a wolf in sheeps clothing.
Good Grief, do you know nothing about us at all.

One does not just walk into a hippie website and dis hippies and exspect candy and flowers. Your comment was at the least putting hippies down. You don't have to like us. but don't come in and make rash statements about us that could be misconstrued as putdowns. Choose your words wisely, where they don't come across as negitive energy against us, and all will be peacefull in the Garden. And please don't walk on the Flowers.

In Love and Light
sh

[Xac]

I dont think junk heads "discrimination" was directed at hippies but at people as a whole, i think he was simply stating that alot of stupid people (as are most people) are hippies and amongst them manson would not have had a hard time finding followers, i think the same could be said for 'goths' 'punks' or what ever group you want to catorgorize.

SH, I have read this thread and it seems to me that you are blocking a lot of debate by taking so much personally, perhaps this isnt the thread for debate i am not totally sure but unless we can agree to disagree what can we possibly learn?

I think, hotel Afrique didnt need to be threatned with a ban (which was by another moderator) and he did "personally attack" me but i didnt let it bother me because it wasnt any serious "trolling" or any serious insults.

Finally, i apologise for any typos, as i am slightly drunk :)

[shameless_heifer]

All I'm saying is Choose Your Words Wisely so they wont be mis-interpeted as a troll, flame ect.

Hotel Afrique was with a group of others that came in from another site with the intent to troll. They all came in at the same time in different threads and began to cause friction in the forums. I was warned after he started harrassing ones in here, including me, by someone that knew them from the site from which they came.

I would also like to add something about me. When someone is calling me out, yes I do take it personally.
If you never learn anything else about me, learn this. I am an Empath/Sensitive. I pickup the underlying intent, I feel it right down to my bones. And you don't have to be a physic to see the real intent behind some of the comments. I'm not sitting here all mean faced when I am I'm asking someone to be cool.

When I see darkness I shine the LIGHT on it so it does not creep in and block out the sun. The Flowers, Herbs, and Veggies ( as Rita so poeticly phrased it) cannot survive in darkness.

In the Garden, Ranger and me are the Lightkeepers,and Gardeners. We are here to protect and nurish the Garden Dwellers. In our many many year of experience as hippies, living breathing, doing, hippies. We both have counciled ones that have lost the light in their lives, we ourselves have been lost at times on the path to enlightenment. We understand, the plight of the human development. We can also smell BullShit walking a mile away.

If you think, and I am saying this in the nicest way I know how, you can do a better job then Step up to the Plate and take a swing at being a Mod. I suppose we could let the weeds take over and suck the life from the Garden if that's what you want.

I don't know what else to tell ya, man, we are doing the best we can.
sh

[junkhead]

i don't have to choose my words wisely
i have an opinion just as you do

[THUDLY]

Shameless Heifer----What is this paranoic fear of "flaming"? Hell, I enjoy morons jumping on my ass. FLAME ME ALWAYS! My retaliation may be considerable, and not pleasant.


How terribly unfortuntate.

This is, after all, the pure expression of The First Amendment.

Live with it.

[Zer0_II]

SH, I have read this thread and it seems to me that you are blocking a lot of debate by taking so much personally, perhaps this isnt the thread for debate i am not totally sure but unless we can agree to disagree what can we possibly learn?

I agree with Xac on this. I posted earlier in this thread, and I've already said my peace about the whole Manson deal. Now that I've had time to look back I suppose I might have been a little agressive. I have a tendacy to do that sometimes though :) I must confess that I love a good debate. No hard feelings. From what I've read I think SH is a good person and genuinely means well.

[shameless_heifer]

There were about ten post deleted from the thread so you didn't read it all and didn't see what I was responding to.....Whatever, Ya'll have at it. I'm not here to spoil your fun.
sh

[Zer0_II]

There were about ten post deleted from the thread so you didn't read it all and didn't see what I was responding to.....Whatever, Ya'll have at it. I'm not here to spoil your fun.
sh
I was actually referring to how you responded to me. You seemed to take it a little too personal.