Where mysticism fails [Archive]

Sebbi

08-21-2005, 12:39 AM

Lodog

08-21-2005, 12:42 AM

Where mysticism fails, LODOG PREVAILS!!!!

White Feather

08-21-2005, 11:09 PM

Why does anyone follow the spiritual path in the first place - to become happy isn't it? At the end of the day, what other purpose do people follow the spiritual path?
Or it's to discover why one is unhappy.

One could finally come to the realisation that one is unhappy because one is not happy with the cards life has dealt them. It comes down to "why me?" The deeper question then becomes "Why must I die?" "Why was I born?" is secondary because there is nothing one can do about it. One then tries not to die, knowing that it is futile. This process of realisation is called spiritualism (not communing with Spirits), being spiritual, being more sensitive to Life.

BlackBillBlake

08-22-2005, 12:26 AM

Mystics always seem to get wrapped up in one particular aspect of the occult and forget why.

Why does anyone follow the spiritual path in the first place - to become happy isn't it? At the end of the day, what other purpose do people follow the spiritual path?

To clear their souls of all it's worldly properties to it may become light enough to ascend. Why do that?

To become happy. Same with attaining paradise - what's wrong with hell - ah that's right, something to do with not being happy there isn't it.

An alchemist with the philosopher's stone has nothing if (s)he's not happy.

This is a point that I think should be reitterated in mysticism.

I was talking to a girl who was a kitchen witch - I asked her what the point of it was and she said "just to be joyful". Joy.

It's obvious when you think about it so why do some people forget.

Blessings

Sebbi
Some do get too wrapped up in a more or less limited thing.
But not all. Nor are all mystically inclined people un-happy, or lacking joy.
Everyone seeks happiness, that is only natural.
The difference, I suppose, is that a mystic would say that the joy he/she experiences is not dependent on outside causes. I mean, some people are happy with a bar of choc, but when it's gone, so is the happiness. That seems to be one argument anyway.

White Feather

08-22-2005, 04:13 AM

I'd like to see a further redefinition of "mysticism" and the spiritual life. It's one thing to be a Shaman and another to be using crystals or ouija boards. It's one thing to be a Buddhist and another thing to be a witch. To some it is a hobby, to others it is life itself.

Sebbi

08-22-2005, 04:23 PM

Some do get too wrapped up in a more or less limited thing.
But not all. Nor are all mystically inclined people un-happy, or lacking joy.
Everyone seeks happiness, that is only natural.
I agree entirely - on my other board I am known as "the resident alchemist" and I do not consider myself to be un-happy or lacking joy. Certainly my life is pretty melancholy a lot of the time and I don't always feel happy but I'm not un-happy.

The difference, I suppose, is that a mystic would say that the joy he/she experiences is not dependent on outside causes. I mean, some people are happy with a bar of choc, but when it's gone, so is the happiness. That seems to be one argument anyway.
Hmmm... I take your point - very Buddhist viewpoint.

I originally posted this, not to go into the nature of happiness, but the search for this but digression is healthy so I won't complain.

Blessings

Sebbi

Varuna

08-23-2005, 02:45 AM

I'd like to see a further redefinition of "mysticism" and the spiritual life.
I wrote this in an earlier thread.

Mysticism is the universal path of the Mystic, or one who seeks the direct experience of ultimate reality. Mysticism sets aside desire and fear (the ego itself) in order to experience, directly, an unbiased perception of reality as a single, unified whole, as a self-evident, meta-existent divinity whose expression is existence itself, consciousness itself, and love itself. The mystic seeks union with the divinity by realizing his (her) own existence, consciousness and love is identical with that of the divinity.

Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, Krishna, Rumi, Bodhidharma, Isaiah, Lao Tsu and many, many others were all mystics. And, regardless of whether you know it or not, you are too.

It's one thing to be a Shaman and another to be using crystals or ouija boards. It's one thing to be a Buddhist and another thing to be a witch. To some it is a hobby, to others it is life itself.
Well, some Mystics do use tools to help them break out of their habitual interpretations of reality. These tools may include such experiential things as drugs, meditation, rituals, etc., or such external projections of the psyche as Tarot Cards, Ouija Boards, Crystals, Rorshach tests and so on.

It is vitally important to know that the use of these tools is not necessarily the practice of Mysticism itself, in the same way that reading National Geographic is not necessarily the same thing as travel. It is also at least as important, if not more important, to know that all spiritual tools can lead to dependence and can create their own habitual interpretations of reality.

You just have to pick your habits wisely.

Peace and Love

White Feather

08-23-2005, 03:56 AM

all spiritual tools can lead to dependence and can create their own habitual interpretations of reality.
Even Buddha said that eventually, ultimately, even meditation has to be dropped just as ALL desire will have to be transcended, even the desire for Enlightenment & Nirvana.

But he was speaking to higher order disciples. The newbies would have to use these tools until they came to the point where it was a hinderance.

As with most disciplines there is an ego component. Some suppress and repress it, some exploit it and some transcend it.

It comes down to whether one seeks to know existence through oneself or through the limits of oneself (having control over Nature). One can liken it to white magick and black magick, the subjective or the objective, control over one's self or the control over others.

Let's say that I work with dreams. Do I seek to manipulate my dreams so that my reality changes?, do I seek to decode my dreams so that I can be aware of what is coming?, or do I enjoy my dreams for what they are, entertainment?

Seeking after truth is a desire. Buddha said that desire will have to be transcended. But one has to go through the process to understand the futility of desiring. With that understanding there is a dropping of that desire. It is in actually experiencing something that one understands it. One can then choose to transcend it, and with that choice it will drop by itself, there is no need to drop it.

So what I see as someone who is into New Age is but the seduction of the Old Age repackaged. It still appeals to the ego, it appeals to the mind. That which appeals to the mind will make the mind stronger.

BlackBillBlake

08-23-2005, 02:03 PM

I originally posted this, not to go into the nature of happiness, but the search for this but digression is healthy so I won't complain.
SebbiActually, I was only saying what others, Buddhist, Hindu, Christian etc mystics tend to say.
But I'm not convinced. Too often I think, mysticism is simply an attempt to escape this world and it's problems. And that usually proceeds by a process of denial of the world, and rejection of what it does offer in the way of happiness and fulfillment. The world is seen as somehow intrinsically bad. A place of misery.
To get happiness I think we do need to be connected to the inner spirit, but I also think we need to seek to have and to create harmonious conditions in this world. It is very difficult to connect to the spirit if one is hungry, living under harsh conditions and so on.
But some mystics - some christians and hindu sadhus for example, actually seek pain and suffering through asceticism and 'self-mortification'. It's hard to equate any of that with happiness or the quest for it in my mind.

Sebbi

08-23-2005, 06:15 PM

Too often I think, mysticism is simply an attempt to escape this world and it's problems. And that usually proceeds by a process of denial of the world, and rejection of what it does offer in the way of happiness and fulfillment.
You just put to words, what I'd been thinking, just with a lot more precision.

You get Cabbalists talking about rearranging the letters of the Torah so that it's in the perfect combination.

You get esoterisists talking about the "psychoastral planes".

What does it mean. Not a lot. Not for 99.9999999999999999% of people anyway. Ultimate reality exists first in the present moment. For those who haven't achieved enlightenment yet this means, conflicting emotions, it means social circles, it means working to feed yourself, it means falling in love, it means having to tidy up after yourself, it means having to come face to face with some really difficult people.

In short, the first step to mystical perfection is to face your worldly problems, not run away from them.

Blessings

Sebbi

White Feather

08-25-2005, 10:16 AM

Too often I think, mysticism is simply an attempt to escape this world and it's problems. the first step to mystical perfection is to face your worldly problems, not run away from them.
As opposed to feeling overwhelmed by them, get stressed out, do drugs, go on Prozac, contemplate suicide, etc.?

I've heard the refrain that meditators are wasting their life by sitting in a corner for hours on end. It may look that way, but I doubt that many people can sit still for more than a minute before their minds starts revolting. So who then is really the master?

Mysticism is just a way to understand the world. If one uses logic one can choose an extreme, a nihilistic view that the world is ugly, corrupt, doomed, hopeless, etc. One could feel hopeless to affect change. Or one can become aggressive and take the law into their own hands.

Yes, the world may be ugly, but the mature mind can accept it without being affected by it. One who sees the world as bad may become attached to the imagery and it taints their psychological outlook, it could cause them to become a social misfit and outcast.

A mystic on the other hand can seek out cause and affect and see what he can control within himself, within his own sphere of influence. This usually starts with how one thinks and sees the world. Becoming detached he may be better able to formulate a plan.

some mystics - some christians and hindu sadhus for example, actually seek pain and suffering through asceticism and 'self-mortification'.
I think that it is going to the opposite extreme. Which is why the Middle Way has appeal.

BlackBillBlake

08-25-2005, 02:12 PM

As opposed to feeling overwhelmed by them, get stressed out, do drugs, go on Prozac, contemplate suicide, etc.?

I've heard the refrain that meditators are wasting their life by sitting in a corner for hours on end. It may look that way, but I doubt that many people can sit still for more than a minute before their minds starts revolting. So who then is really the master?

Mysticism is just a way to understand the world. If one uses logic one can choose an extreme, a nihilistic view that the world is ugly, corrupt, doomed, hopeless, etc. One could feel hopeless to affect change. Or one can become aggressive and take the law into their own hands.

Yes, the world may be ugly, but the mature mind can accept it without being affected by it. One who sees the world as bad may become attached to the imagery and it taints their psychological outlook, it could cause them to become a social misfit and outcast.

A mystic on the other hand can seek out cause and affect and see what he can control within himself, within his own sphere of influence. This usually starts with how one thinks and sees the world. Becoming detached he may be better able to formulate a plan.

I think that it is going to the opposite extreme. Which is why the Middle Way has appeal.
The trouble is that it can become a whole philosophy of 'escapism'. It's good to be able to be still - I fully agree with that. The problem comes when that's all someone wants to do. They can get absorbed in inner bliss and sit quite oblivious whilst the world around them falls to pieces.
If mysticism leads to some kind of better mode of being in the world, and leads paole to seek to change and improve things here, then It's a very good thing. But many traditional mystical paths really take an anti-world view, and see the world simply as something to be transcended, risen above. The final consumation is often to be delayed until some kind of afterlife.
So that's the danger of mysticism as I see it - it can turn people into what Nietzche called 'after worlds men', who are wholly complacent, or 'detached' when it comes to the real problems of struggling humanity.

You could say - but when everyone becomes a mystic it will all work out. But there is liitle sign of that happeneing, and the conditions that are established under the current global capitalist system don't foster any kind of real spirituality or awakening in people. Quite the reverse - it is increasingly a mind control system. So I say that those who do have some spiritual opening shouldn' become too attached to mysticism, esp in a passive form- it's ok up to a point, it has it's function, but action is needed too. And there are many mystics who just don't see that, or even don't really care - because of an 'Im alright Jack' kind of attitude.

phatty j's

08-25-2005, 11:03 PM

i am currently reading a book called autobiography of a yogi. it has a good point pertaining to mysticism and escapism. several times, the author was told that it is necessary for a mystic to escape the world-reject it and focus on divine union-transcendental experience, for a time that is. once true union is made one no longer needs tools-meditation, crystals, rituals-to commune with God or whatever you want to call it. once this is reached, it is one's duty to spread the love of God in their own manner, to share their revelation in the best way possible with the world. it is said that one monk achieving union with the divine does more good for the world than the most charitable person who is ignorant of the divine light. the focus is finding God(or whatever), and once you truly find it, what but good can come of it?

scrap_rat

10-01-2005, 07:50 PM

The trouble is that it can become a whole philosophy of 'escapism'. It's good to be able to be still - I fully agree with that. The problem comes when that's all someone wants to do. They can get absorbed in inner bliss and sit quite oblivious whilst the world around them falls to pieces.
Just surfed through and I really enjoyed this thread. I am Hellenic Pagan of a decidely Pythagorean bend and I have to agree with you even though I am of mystic inclination so to speak. I think moderation is the key; either extreme is bad, but then extremes usually are. I try to live in the grand illusion enough to keep the bills paid and a roof over my head, but I nonetheless keep in mind that it is after all a grand illusion. It's like playing a game just most people don't realize it's just a game.

Bevertje

10-18-2005, 04:20 PM

kinda my opinion too. life is beautifull, but society, gouvernment, religions, ... try to break us, to follow their rules. i try to live my life without looking to these rules. i do break the laws of my country (Belgium) on a regular base (mostly by using drugs), but i try not to harm people.

i cannot understand that society, gouvernment, religions, ... take away our freedom and that we (the world's population) follow those laws without thinking if we want to follow them.

White Feather

12-27-2005, 06:12 PM

BlackBillBlake,

How exactly do you define a mystic?

What exactly is action?

As far as escapism goes, most would rather indulge in drugs, alcohol, TV, playing games, watching a movie, surfing the 'net, etc. Escapsim is all around, whether it is becoming part of a group or mob. All that you may see is that the other person's escapism is different from yours. The difference is therefore one of awareness. All one can do is try to be always be aware, to be aware just a little more each moment. It is not to be more logical each moment, just be more aware, to just be aware.

bamboo

06-18-2006, 01:17 AM

Not to sound negative, but...the problem with this thread is that many of you are falling into the same trap that you accuse government, religion and society on and that is (mild) condemnation of other peoples actions or life styles simply because you don't see the purpose or desire in it. some folks NEED that mysticism thing to be happy others do not. For each person there is a path if they truly seek it and it is not my place to critisize their path simply because it isn't the path that I chose. Kind of harsh and I opplogize because some folks aren't happy unless they are on other folks.

Cosmic Butterfly

06-18-2006, 06:51 AM

The reason that I practice Mysticism is so that I can turn nails into fine goat cheese, and have a deep vibrating tenor sound be made when I enter a room of people. Not to be happy or find out why I am unhappy.

Sebbi

06-22-2006, 12:10 AM

Bamboo - I agree on the governmnet thing you say.

Anyways, the purpose of this thread wasn't to put mysticism down. I have been very interested in mysticism for quite a few years now and have drawn a lot from it. However, it reached a point, where it became a path that wasn't mine and I had to leave.

The reason why I posted this is because I was expressing what I percieved the boundries of mysticism to be. I don't think any one particular path can really be right for anyone for the whole journey and it would be absurb to say that any path is perfect. By pointing out where mysticism fails, doesn't mean it that it has no merit whatsoever.

Peace
Sebbi

bamboo

06-23-2006, 12:17 AM

Sebbi...sorry i got on your case. There are many paths and it's not uncommon to out grow one path and move to another...as long as it has heart....

White Feather

08-24-2006, 08:05 PM

The problem comes when that's all someone wants to do. They can get absorbed in inner bliss and sit quite oblivious whilst the world around them falls to pieces. The world is going to fall to pieces one way or the other; no? I do know what you're saying, though. But it reminds me of the story where Kabir tells a disciple to go into the woods and cut wood. After many hours they go searching for him, only to find him swaying in tune with the trees. It seemed that he "blissed out" and became like a tree, and with it he forgot the rest of the world. He was thankful that his friends came searching for him for he knew that he would die if he didn't get anything to eat.

But really, doesn't everyone want to bliss out? Isn't that the temptation of drugs? Reminds me of the sixties: "Turn on, tune out."

As for me, I like to know what's coming up (if at all possible) and to have a choice of whether or not to follow a certain line of action. So if a dream warns me of a situation I can do everything in my power not to let it come true. I say dreams because if I said symbols which are seen in the real world you'd probably think I am superstitious. Funny thing about superstitions - they are only valid for the person who initially experiences it, to him it has meaning.

BlackBillBlake

08-24-2006, 09:09 PM

The world is going to fall to pieces one way or the other; no? I do know what you're saying, though. But it reminds me of the story where Kabir tells a disciple to go into the woods and cut wood. After many hours they go searching for him, only to find him swaying in tune with the trees. It seemed that he "blissed out" and became like a tree, and with it he forgot the rest of the world. He was thankful that his friends came searching for him for he knew that he would die if he didn't get anything to eat.

But really, doesn't everyone want to bliss out? Isn't that the temptation of drugs? Reminds me of the sixties: "Turn on, tune out."

As for me, I like to know what's coming up (if at all possible) and to have a choice of whether or not to follow a certain line of action. So if a dream warns me of a situation I can do everything in my power not to let it come true. I say dreams because if I said symbols which are seen in the real world you'd probably think I am superstitious. Funny thing about superstitions - they are only valid for the person who initially experiences it, to him it has meaning.The world will one day be destroyed by the sun's expansion, and long before that, all life will have been extinguished. No doubt about that.
However, we're looking here at an immense span of time. It is feasible that humans will be around for millions of years to come.

In my view, we make our own world here - our own civilizations and societies. When I said what I said about things falling apart, I meant more in terms of the immediate situation faced by mankind - environmental meltdown, social disintegration, the threat of fundamentalism etc etc.
I think it's not very helpful if people just space out in some kind of blissed out state in so far as such a state means retirement from the world, turning away from life and it's activities - the traditional ascetic type approach of many mystics. There's a kind of anti-life thing that is often a part of such a world view.

I think the drug thing brings in definite new horizons. With things like LSD, and MDMA it is possible to visit the areas visited by mystics without the necessity of such a withdrawal and protracted years of meditation and discipline etc.
The hippy thing of the 60's - 70's was about getting into farout spaces and so on, getting blissed out - but also about changing society and the world for the better.

I recall reading some years ago from one of the proto hippy west coast music promoters back in the 60's refering to the LSD experience 'when you see the management, you go to work for the management'. Expresses it very well.
And in my mind, 'working for the management' in this context means actively promoting the power of good in general, trying to create a positive vibe in the wider world, not just spacing out in some mountain retreat, ashram or monastary.

I have no doubt at all that we can learn from dreams, and from symbols in the world - and from many other subtle things and forces. I'm all for an opening of consciousness to the reality of such things.I don't regard them as mere superstition - although that does unfortunately exist.
I just think in the end that a balance in needed between contemplation and action. In a way, I'd prefer to see it in terms of magic rather than mysticism.

Varuna

08-24-2006, 11:39 PM

"Tune in, turn on, drop out" -- Timothy Leary

Mesektet

09-14-2006, 11:59 AM

In happiness or sadness I walk my path. Only because it compels me, like breathing.

Enlil6

11-23-2006, 10:01 PM

Mystics always seem to get wrapped up in one particular aspect of the occult and forget why.

Why does anyone follow the spiritual path in the first place - to become happy isn't it? At the end of the day, what other purpose do people follow the spiritual path?

To clear their souls of all it's worldly properties to it may become light enough to ascend. Why do that?

To become happy. Same with attaining paradise - what's wrong with hell - ah that's right, something to do with not being happy there isn't it.

An alchemist with the philosopher's stone has nothing if (s)he's not happy.

This is a point that I think should be reitterated in mysticism.

I was talking to a girl who was a kitchen witch - I asked her what the point of it was and she said "just to be joyful". Joy.

It's obvious when you think about it so why do some people forget.

Blessings

Sebbi
I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I disagree - at least in my case.

The reason why I do this is for knowledge, not happiness. Happiness is more of a subjective thing that you either you are experiencing at one point but not in others.

Knowledge is really what all this is about. Why do people do initiations, talk to spirits, do high magic, and so on? To gain knowledge. This is what many of the old books talk about.

Happiness you can always get without religion, but knowledge - at least the kind of hightened awareness is a bit different. You CAN do this without religion, but it's harder for most people. Happiness can be gained with no philosophy whatsoever.

jnanic

11-30-2006, 03:08 PM

For anyone with empathy, letting go of the attachment to the condition and fate of humanity, life on Earth and the Earth itself, is necessary for being contented or blissful within. Given the way things are, attachment will cause perpetual pain and sorrow, as many here have felt, including me.

To let go of this attachment enables the individual to act in the world without adding to it negatively, through anger at the injustice and so on. Finally, mysticism is about union. In such union, there can be no escapism. If there is escapism, then it cannot be union. In union, there is always service of all life as an expression of compassion to the eternal and universal life that is oneself.

Peace and love
Jnanic

BlackBillBlake

11-30-2006, 03:27 PM

To let go of this attachment enables the individual to act in the world without adding to it negatively, through anger at the injustice and so on. Finally, mysticism is about union. In such union, there can be no escapism. If there is escapism, then it cannot be union. In union, there is always service of all life as an expression of compassion to the eternal and universal life that is oneself.

Peace and love
Jnanic
I'm sure there's a contradiction in there.
If one were totally unattached to the world and to events in the world, one would presumably see everything as pretty well equal. In such a condition, how could you determine what is wrong with things, or who or what to serve?

jnanic

11-30-2006, 04:54 PM

Bill

One does not see all things as automatically equal if one is unattached. One does not become blind with non attachment or see everything as undifferentiated. One sees equal value in all life but that does not mean one can help or serve all life, as the individual does not become omnipotent or omnipresent through union nor does everyone want to receive the help offered.

The perception of reality is actually clarified from non attachment. There is the perception of need - the relative importance and urgency of things becomes more clear as the basis for action, what the individual can do and what they cannot do, free from guilt or selfishness.

Union allows action of that which is most appropriate, which will be unique for each person's situation. The direction comes from the realisation of the infinite will in the mind of the individual, which he or she is one with, free from the illusion of separation.

Peace and love
Jnanic

Layla Nahar

03-14-2007, 12:14 AM

hm. Mysticism only fails if you expect something out of it.

Enlil6

03-14-2007, 03:03 PM

hm. Mysticism only fails if you expect something out of it.
Does this mean you shouldn't expect results? If I didn't get results I wouldn't do any of this stuff.

Varuna

03-14-2007, 06:40 PM

Mysticism is an ultimately undefinable experience. Any specific expectation of what it should be will probably distract you from experiencing what it is. Until one's expectations are transcended, any full realization of the mystic experience is unlikely.

There is always a good analogy to be found in music. One who thinks dance is the sole purpose for music may miss the genius of Beethoven, Stravinsky, Coltrane or Jimi Hendrix. One who expects a heavily percussive rhythm and a blistering guitar solo will ignore the transcendant brilliance of Gregorian Chants, Tuva Throat Singers, Vaughan Williams, most Japanese Classical Music, Dead Can Dance, Cat Stevens, Bob Marley, etc. Inversely, one who expects music to express only the etherial transcendence of their spiritual sensibilities will probably never appreciate Black Sabbath, King Crimson, The Clash, Living Colour or Nirvana.

Think of the best things you have experienced, or expect to experience. Things like love, nature, sex, holidays, inspiration, creativity, great art, the philosophical "aha!" moment, and so on. Like the mystic experience, the first time you experience these things is usually far more than anything you expected.

Peace and Love

Enlil6

03-14-2007, 07:22 PM

I still disagree. I DO have expectations, and I think we all do. We do very few things with no expectations. At the very least you at least expect there to be some result. If you literally expect nothing, then why are you doing it? Sure you could say you do rituals (or whatever you want to call them) for the aesthetic value, but I suspect most of us do it for more than that.

I am not saying I go in front of Venus and give her a menu of what I want out of her, but I still expect that my efforts aren't in vain!

Layla Nahar

03-27-2007, 03:46 PM

If you literally expect nothing, then why are you doing it?
because I like *doing* it. the doing is all.

Enlil6

03-28-2007, 03:13 PM

because I like *doing* it. the doing is all.
Perhaps I appear argumentative, but I still disagree with this.

First of all it is entirely in your rights to do whatever you want, and I can't entirely disagree with someone who wants to do something "just because you want to". So from one perpective that's cool since ONE of the reasons why we do anything is because you want to.

However I two issues.

First "doing" is not all. Magic, ritual, or whatever label you give it, is not simply an act - at least not any more of an act than for example sex. Sure you can just screw anyone you want because sex is fun. But, is it meaningful? At least in my case I would rather have sex with someone I love than a one-night stand.

Ritual is the same. Sure it looks purty and it can be fun or even uplifting. However, there is a reason why magic in the old grimoires was called interchangeably an art or a science. Now science comes from the Latin "sciencia" which means "knowledge". The goal of the high art of magic is for knowledge. Other kinds of magic - especially magic with no purpose is considered meaningless traditionally. In fact it was so meaningless that it was never discussed. One thing that is missing in most newer books, but was in the old books, is that in order to do magic one must also be a philosopher. It is only through philosophy that one can have the maturity to understand the true meaning of what it is they are doing. A ritual isn't simply pretty colors, candles, and incense. In the old days, one didn't use myrrh for a moon ritual because myrrh is not a Moon subtance. This is a very subtle art.

We are all humans and there are times we do things without thinking. There are other times when I really feel like I need to do a Venus ritual. Even then I don't "just do it". I first determine the correct time to do it. When you are dealing with gods, you should first try to understand how to move with the energies involved as opposed to giving in to caprice. Every ritual has its time and place.

Honestly I can't understand why someone would do a ritual for no reason or not expecting any results. I sure as hell do. If I didn't get results I woudn't do it. For as much trouble as rituals are - the long hours of preparation, the expense, and the physical drain, I certainly hope SOMETHING comes out of it.

misterrain

05-24-2007, 06:19 PM

I don't really understand the whole image of mysticism as some sort of ultimate spirituality... I mean, if anything, it's a lonely, frustrating and confusing way to go about finding God.

I'm not knocking it for people who are into it, but it seems to me that when you tell yourself you're looking for something 'out there', you're really trying to develop an appreciation for what's already around you. I guess travelling around like I have been for the past little while has been exciting, and it has changed me... but ultimately, it just produces deeper and deeper yearning.

And I really don't think Jesus was in any way a mystic. He wasn't looking for answers, he was trying to figure out how to communicate them. He already HAD faith.