Libertine - Guru of Hedonopia

[Libertine]

Blowing minds one trip at a time....

I am Libertine, Guru of Hedonopia, opening the door to mind expansion through three basic methods handed down by the sages of wisdom from Socrates to Timothy Leary:

THINK FOR YOURSELF. - You must know yourself, examine yourself, open the book to yourself and find yourself.

QUESTION AUTHORITY. - Respect what is respectful. Do not respect a title or those which wear the badge of authority that are disrespectful to you.

CHALLENGE ASSUMPTIONS. - Search for yourself, take no one's word, no holy writ as evidence, without examining the world--the questions for yourself.

It is my job to corrupt you with the idea of individual sovereignty, freedom of your mind and body, and respect for the freedom and autonomy of others.

8-19-05 ©LibertineGuru http://www.myspace.com/libertineguru

[ryupower]

So, it's not just the Christianity boards where you manifest. :rolleyes:

[Bhaskar]

What you say is not different from Hinduism. You must think, question and challenge. But at some point, when you find truth, you must have the magnanimity to also accept. As for respect, yes, we must respect all that is worthy of respect and all things are intrinisically worthy of respect. We may detest certain qualities: arrogance, intolerance, selfishness, etc., but the essential life principle manifest in all is worthy of respect.

[Libertine]

What you say is not different from Hinduism. You must think, question and challenge. But at some point, when you find truth, you must have the magnanimity to also accept.

I've found many truths and have accepted them. And many I've not found, and reserved judgment on them.

As for respect, yes, we must respect all that is worthy of respect and all things are intrinisically worthy of respect. We may detest certain qualities: arrogance, intolerance, selfishness, etc., but the essential life principle manifest in all is worthy of respect.

I respect life and liberty of everyone, but I do not respect all things--such as all ideas, concepts or actions. I detest certain qualities as well: intolerance, stupidity (failing to accept reason), self-sacrifice (if other ways are available which will benefit all parties).

[BlackBillBlake]

Blowing minds one trip at a time....

I am Libertine, Guru of Hedonopia, opening the door to mind expansion through three basic methods handed down by the sages of wisdom from Socrates to Timothy Leary:

THINK FOR YOURSELF. - You must know yourself, examine yourself, open the book to yourself and find yourself.

QUESTION AUTHORITY. - Respect what is respectful. Do not respect a title or those which wear the badge of authority that are disrespectful to you.

CHALLENGE ASSUMPTIONS. - Search for yourself, take no one's word, no holy writ as evidence, without examining the world--the questions for yourself.

It is my job to corrupt you with the idea of individual sovereignty, freedom of your mind and body, and respect for the freedom and autonomy of others.

8-19-05 ©LibertineGuru http://www.myspace.com/libertineguru
Agree about those 3 big points there.
And yes,It was with ideas identical with these that I became corrupted some years ago.
Just to add one more - 'respect the earth and take only what you need'.

[Libertine]

;)

[Jedi]

Blowing minds one trip at a time....

I am Libertine, Guru of Hedonopia, opening the door to mind expansion through three basic methods handed down by the sages of wisdom from Socrates to Timothy Leary:

THINK FOR YOURSELF. - You must know yourself, examine yourself, open the book to yourself and find yourself.

QUESTION AUTHORITY. - Respect what is respectful. Do not respect a title or those which wear the badge of authority that are disrespectful to you.

CHALLENGE ASSUMPTIONS. - Search for yourself, take no one's word, no holy writ as evidence, without examining the world--the questions for yourself.

It is my job to corrupt you with the idea of individual sovereignty, freedom of your mind and body, and respect for the freedom and autonomy of others.

8-19-05 ©LibertineGuru http://www.myspace.com/libertineguruTHe great and powerful libertine has left out 2 more rules out of the great 5 commandments of Hedonopia!- Constantly struggle, never find peace, do not make your life simple, just think about why you exist but do not accept the supreme being. :rolleyes:

and ... - never say Jesus/ or even that you follow a certain religion.

[Libertine]

Unfortunately, struggling is a part of getting things done. Peace will never come until we all drop such things as nationalism and religious dogma, life is both simple and complex, and never assume there is any "Supreme Being" without reason...we are all "supreme".

[BlackBillBlake]

THe great and powerful libertine has left out 2 more rules out of the great 5 commandments of Hedonopia!- Constantly struggle, never find peace, do not make your life simple, just think about why you exist but do not accept the supreme being. :rolleyes:

and ... - never say Jesus/ or even that you follow a certain religion.
Even if you do accept a supreme being, there's still struggle.
As for making life simple - that's something I like the idea of, no point in just expanding complexity for the sake of it - but the fact is life today is pretty complex. The problems the human race faces are complex. Simplicity is never to be confused with dumbness or bland acceptance or fatalism.

As to folowing a set religion - folks have been doing just that for millenia, and it's landed us in a fine mess. If someone feels some inner spiritual experience, great, but really, religion as it is isn't going to solve our problems. It failed when our problems were considerably less complex and threatening than they are to-day, and it is clearly incapable in it's present forms of adressing the real issues that are important now.
This is a new age and we need new age solutions -
A new vision of what the 'supreme being' might be would seem to be part of that.

[Jedi]

Unfortunately, struggling is a part of getting things done. Peace will never come until we all drop such things as nationalism and religious dogma, life is both simple and complex, and never assume there is any "Supreme Being" without reason...we are all "supreme".
Saying that we are supreme is very dangerous, let me ask you something- do you think that you can find the truth using logic?

[Jedi]

A new vision of what the 'supreme being' might be would seem to be part of that.
we do not need new solutions, nor do we have new problems- the people in the past were always after power, were always trying to end bodily discomforts, they were always trying to meet their basic needs- food, shelter, brain stimulation. What we need to do is try to follow the old solutions correctly with the right understanding, then we will solve our problems. what we need is victory over ourselves- our emotions, our desires, our ambitions and focus on the task of helping the society grow to new heights. We need to find meaning in work with compassion.

[Bhaskar]

Beautifully put Jedi.

[BlackBillBlake]

we do not need new solutions, nor do we have new problems- the people in the past were always after power, were always trying to end bodily discomforts, they were always trying to meet their basic needs- food, shelter, brain stimulation. What we need to do is try to follow the old solutions correctly with the right understanding, then we will solve our problems. what we need is victory over ourselves- our emotions, our desires, our ambitions and focus on the task of helping the society grow to new heights. We need to find meaning in work with compassion.
If these old solutions worked, we wouldn't have the problems we have now.

[BlackBillBlake]

But actually, I think people need to find things such as food and shelter. Nothing wrong in that.

And to say there are no new problems is somewhat strange - do you imagine that issues like genetic engineering, global overpopulation, fundamentalist suicide bombers, ecological meltdown ect were there in previous ages?

[Libertine]

Saying that we are supreme is very dangerous, let me ask you something- do you think that you can find the truth using logic?

Supreme is a mindset. When I refer to it, I only refer to our power to overcome our dependencies and addictions (not just drugs as this word is synonymous with now).

I do not seek "the truth", but truths. The freedom to seek these truths comes from the freeing of the mind from preconceived notions we have been handed down through social conditioning (which includes religion).

As for me, I do not attempt to objectify that which is subjective.

[Jedi]

But actually, I think people need to find things such as food and shelter. Nothing wrong in that.

And to say there are no new problems is somewhat strange - do you imagine that issues like genetic engineering, global overpopulation, fundamentalist suicide bombers, ecological meltdown ect were there in previous ages?
no, but many of the problems roots are the same basic feelings of senseless ambitions and delusions.

[Jedi]

Supreme is a mindset. When I refer to it, I only refer to our power to overcome our dependencies and addictions (not just drugs as this word is synonymous with now).

I do not seek "the truth", but truths. The freedom to seek these truths comes from the freeing of the mind from preconceived notions we have been handed down through social conditioning (which includes religion).

As for me, I do not attempt to objectify that which is subjective.could it be that you do not know if there is "the truth" or "truths" or maybe what you call the truths can be added to a simple truth.

Anyway, thats an entirely different matter, but if you seek the "truths" do you seek them through the use of your mind? in other words through logic?

Oh by the way, why does one need to be the supreme to gain any control over oneself? Can't I just be myself , surrender to God and have some control over what I say to you right now?

[Jedi]

Beautifully put Jedi.
:D thanks for the encouragement baskar :)

[Libertine]

Anyway, thats an entirely different matter, but if you seek the "truths" do you seek them through the use of your mind? in other words through logic?
Had you rather me use my ass? Your brain is God, man. You are your own god or gods (if you have a split personality). Logic doesn't answer all things, it is only a method. I do not discount emotions, as they are a make-up of humanity as well.


Oh by the way, why does one need to be the supreme to gain any control over oneself? Can't I just be myself , surrender to God and have some control over what I say to you right now?
Gain control of your dependencies and addictions. Then you can be yourself all you want.

As far as any "God" is concerned, that is a subjective matter altogether.

[BlackBillBlake]

no, but many of the problems roots are the same basic feelings of senseless ambitions and delusions.
Again I disagree - many of to-day's most urgent problems have their roots in science. In past ages, science as we know it didn't exist. OK- you can say that science has been deployed along lines based on people's ambitions etc, but in general, the intention has been good. Medical research for example. Trouble is, as more people live longer the global population expands to an unmanagable level.
Same with many other technologies.
The forces of cultural conservatism, which are often part and parcel of trad. religion can't help solve the problems - partly because many of the adherents of such views are really ignorant of the nature of the problems and their possible solutions. Some just blandly say not to worry, because God will sort everything out.
It seems that humanist values are as good as those of the religious, if not often superior, because not tied to archaic belief systems.
Look at the catholic church for example - much raving about gays, women etc, never a word about climate change, global warming etc. Perhaps they're in the pocket of big business.

[Bhaskar]

Neither logic nor emotion can possibly comprehend the highest truth, for that is experienced in transcendance of mind, not in intellectual masturbation. The best mind is one without thoughts.

[Libertine]

I respect your right to your viewpoint, Bhaskar. However, until I discover any faculties other than the pSy that can be a medium for experience, I will continue to operate through these faculties accordingly.

The nihilism of "transcendence" is incomprehensible due to its innate quality of absence.

To expand your horizons through inner space, the eternal sojourn, is the path which I have chosen to take and others have chosen to follow as well.

[Jedi]

Had you rather me use my ass? Well, I don't know about that, you might be the better judge of that, I will tell you to find a bathroom near by though. http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif


Your brain is God, man. You are your own god or gods (if you have a split personality). Actually my brain is going to die in less than 100 years and it did not exist 20 years ago, So I don't call my brain 'God'. http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif


Logic doesn't answer all things, it is only a method. I do not discount emotions, as they are a make-up of humanity as well I am curious now, I really want to know what you mean because, you see the point of questioning things is to reason and accept what you think is the truth, this is logic... well, atleast thats what I have learned in a philosophy class, if logic doesn't answer all things then do you accept the idea that we just have to have faith in somethings that logic doesn't answer- like God.


Gain control of your dependencies and addictions. Then you can be yourself all you want. absolutely right, we have to stop being dependent on our ego, our addiction to the "self" and then we can be truly ourselves, ofcourse this only happens through God's grace.




As far as any "God" is concerned, that is a subjective matter altogether. isn't calling something subjective a redundant statement, unless you are coming out of your body and looking at things as they are and going back into it again and looking at them differently? http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Jedi]

Again I disagree - many of to-day's most urgent problems have their roots in science.
Isn't science just "knowledge" about the world. Like Biology- is the knowledge of the anatomy and physiology and all the other things that are dealing with life sciences. Physics- the study of the physical laws of the universe... chemistry- the play of atoms etc? I do not think that knowledge is something that is evil or somehow creates problems... unless you are saying that we are maybe some how not ready for this knowledge, then for that I say- because to use this knowledge properly - one has to be free from things like ego, passion for power etc.


In past ages, science as we know it didn't exist. OK- you can say that science has been deployed along lines based on people's ambitions etc, but in general, the intention has been good. Medical research for example. Trouble is, as more people live longer the global population expands to an unmanagable level.
Well, We cannot say this with 100% accuracy that there wasn't 'science' as we know it in the past... because there were scientists in places like China, there were astronomers, great thinkers and philosophers in places like greece, rome, persia, Islamic empire, India, etc. They knew about salicylic acid - the present day aspirin -just with out the acetyl group.

Anyway, the point is, they knew some science and probably that science forms the fundamentals of sciences today. However, I am sure we can say that there existed passion for power, for expansion and plenty of selfish motives. and ofcourse with those things did destroy lives- maybe at a lower level than what we see in genocides today , but it did happen and we are suffering the samethings today as well. These things are the real problems, these are the ones that are symbolized as satan's powers.


The forces of cultural conservatism, which are often part and parcel of trad. religion can't help solve the problems - partly because many of the adherents of such views are really ignorant of the nature of the problems and their possible solutions. Some just blandly say not to worry, because God will sort everything out. I don't know but religion has emerged as a way to solve problems. God- adherence to him made the muslims in the crusades (1000 Ad somewhere around that time) to respect their enemies and give them some water if they are captured. Also, there have been cases where people were killed through a belief in God but the holy men - the sufis, the saints all preached peace and have brought that to the societies they were living in.

It seems that humanist values are as good as those of the religious, if not often superior, because not tied to archaic belief systems.
Look at the catholic church for example - much raving about gays, women etc, never a word about climate change, global warming etc. Perhaps they're in the pocket of big business.
Its funny when you say: "humanist values are as good as those of religious". In fact, humanist values are religious, they have come from religion. If we track all the humanist values to their roots - they will have them deeply rooted in Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism etc.

Anyway, belief in the catholic church or some strict adherence to some organized religion is different than a belief in God, if this was untrue then we would not have people who live normal lives and still hold a strong belief in God.

[Jedi]

Neither logic nor emotion can possibly comprehend the highest truth, for that is experienced in transcendance of mind, not in intellectual masturbation. The best mind is one without thoughts.Amen to that brother! :D the best mind is no mind, then what exists is pure consciousness free from doubts and everything is just a game.

[Libertine]

Actually my brain is going to die in less than 100 years and it did not exist 20 years ago, So I don't call my brain 'God'. http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif
That's because you see "God" as something objective.


I am curious now, I really want to know what you mean because, you see the point of questioning things is to reason and accept what you think is the truth, this is logic... well, atleast thats what I have learned in a philosophy class, if logic doesn't answer all things then do you accept the idea that we just have to have faith in somethings that logic doesn't answer- like God.

Logic/Reason are the methods to discovering truths. When you say "answers ALL things" you include mysteries that have yet to be discovered and thus, you are saying that they CANNOT be discovered through those methods. Really? Which faculties do you use to figure that out? So, if we "can't explain it", alas "God did it?"...This is the primal theory that has already been discarded several times over.
Just because the rumbling, the smoke, the fire couldn't be adequately explained back in the day, the ancients believed it was the "volcano gods"... The gap-filling has proven time and time again to be a joke.


absolutely right, we have to stop being dependent on our ego, our addiction to the "self" and then we can be truly ourselves, ofcourse this only happens through God's grace.

We have to stop being dependent on things. We have to conquer our addictions without blaming the inanimate. It comes through willpower and reason, not a spooky sky entity.



isn't calling something subjective a redundant statement, unless you are coming out of your body and looking at things as they are and going back into it again and looking at them differently? http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

That's what religious people do when they assume they know the origins of the universe and the answers to what "God" wants. Subjective is on subject to that particular individual, it is relative to the perception.

Lack of evidence of a mystery is not evidence for "God". That is an assumption and a very hasty one at that. Yet, this seems to be the "redundant" method used consistently here.

[Libertine]

Amen to that brother! :D the best mind is no mind, then what exists is pure consciousness free from doubts and everything is just a game.

And which faculties did you two use to discover this? I am interested in knowing...

[Jedi]

That's because you see "God" as something objective.




Logic/Reason are the methods to discovering truths. When you say "answers ALL things" you include mysteries that have yet to be discovered and thus, you are saying that they CANNOT be discovered through those methods. Really? Which faculties do you use to figure that out? So, if we "can't explain it", alas "God did it?"...This is the primal theory that has already been discarded several times over.
Just because the rumbling, the smoke, the fire couldn't be adequately explained back in the day, the ancients believed it was the "volcano gods"... The gap-filling has proven time and time again to be a joke.




We have to stop being dependent on things. We have to conquer our addictions without blaming the inanimate. It comes through willpower and reason, not a spooky sky entity.





That's what religious people do when they assume they know the origins of the universe and the answers to what "God" wants. Subjective is on subject to that particular individual, it is relative to the perception.

Lack of evidence of a mystery is not evidence for "God". That is an assumption and a very hasty one at that. Yet, this seems to be the "redundant" method used consistently here.
I agree with you when you say that it is ignorant to just assume something is a wonder of God and just not explore it even if one needs to do so- but that does not mean that it is wrong to think that it is caused by God- because at the fundamental level it is.

You see, you might find out everything about a biochemical pathway, I can just sit here and discuss with you each and every step of how Glucose is converted into energy in a tiny cell of our body. However, that does not answer the question why? - why does this happen? why do I survive? why is this making me survive? the question here is about "existence" , it is about life, it is about the physical laws themselves. You cannot answer this, not with out looking deep with in yourself and that only happens when one becomes a devotee of God and surrenders to the higher power that is basically running this universe as we see it now.

[Jedi]

And which faculties did you two use to discover this? I am interested in knowing...:D the same faculties you used when you were asking me the question.

by saying the "best mind is no mind" - I did not mean do not use your reasoning power- your intelligence , but what I was trying to say is what you were trying to say and what bhaskar was trying to say- the animal mind that is ignorant of the truth, that lives in doubt, that fears , that gets angry etc.

ha, although we are all very far from reaching the truth, we will get there one day.

[mariecstasy]

i disagree....with your dropping of religious dogma; the bottom line of all religion is love...not one religion teaches to hate another, its simply the interpreter who becomes fundamentalist that is the problem....if people find comfort in these ideals and dogmas, then out of respect and out of love, one should embrace those people....perhaps they feel they have found their answers there...it doesn't make them stupid...many people of faith, whatever faith it is, are at peace and are wonderful people...not just wonderful christians or buddhists or hinduists....but rather wonderful human beings.
you say basically here to open your mind, but you sound as if you have narrowed yours...finding what is best for you and thinking it the path of everyone....
we are all gods and all create our own reality...have respect for other people's reality too, even if you disagree...
granted we can each find our own path or dogma that is good for ourselves, but for those who don't know that, who havent realized that, or who are simply sheep.....well peace and blessings to them too...

sorry if that came across egotistical or preachy, it genuinely came from the heart as i find this logical way of thinking to lack the heart that is essential to embrace all of humanity...instead it puts people in boxes and labels them....and we are all doing the best we can, even the ones that aren't, they just havent realized they can do better yet...LOVE IS THE ANSWER....

[Jedi]

"LOVE IS THE ANSWER...."

Amen to that man! Amen!

[BlackBillBlake]

Isn't science just "knowledge" about the world. Like Biology- is the knowledge of the anatomy and physiology and all the other things that are dealing with life sciences. Physics- the study of the physical laws of the universe... chemistry- the play of atoms etc? I do not think that knowledge is something that is evil or somehow creates problems... unless you are saying that we are maybe some how not ready for this knowledge, then for that I say- because to use this knowledge properly - one has to be free from things like ego, passion for power etc.

It's not scince in itself, but the way it is used. There ccan be no doubt that science has transformed the world. Modern industrial civilization has changed everything, and thrown up a whole raft of new problems.
Take neuclear waste - it has to be kept safe somhow for millions of years. If this civilization undergoes some kind of collapse, what will happen? It could spell the end of life on earthy altogether.
Only science, ie modern science, has created this situation, only science can solve it. God isn't going to appear and wave a magic wand. Medieval notions of morality aren't going to be much help either.


Well, We cannot say this with 100% accuracy that there wasn't 'science' as we know it in the past... because there were scientists in places like China, there were astronomers, great thinkers and philosophers in places like greece, rome, persia, Islamic empire, India, etc. They knew about salicylic acid - the present day aspirin -just with out the acetyl group.
They didn't know enough to be able to cause any damage. And philosophy has little to do with empirical science, although some branches of it may have contributed to the development of science in the early stages, back in the 17 - 18th centuries.


Anyway, the point is, they knew some science and probably that science forms the fundamentals of sciences today. However, I am sure we can say that there existed passion for power, for expansion and plenty of selfish motives. and ofcourse with those things did destroy lives- maybe at a lower level than what we see in genocides today , but it did happen and we are suffering the samethings today as well. These things are the real problems, these are the ones that are symbolized as satan's powers.
Pre Newton they certainly didn't know even the basic lawas of motion etc.
They didn't know much about the actual universe either. For instance, they believed it was very, very small compared to what we now know to be the case. They had no idea of the existence of galaxies right up to the last centurey. Now we know there are billions of galaxies.
They believed too that diseases are caused by devils etc. rather than bacteria, viruses etc.


I don't know but religion has emerged as a way to solve problems. God- adherence to him made the muslims in the crusades (1000 Ad somewhere around that time) to respect their enemies and give them some water if they are captured. Also, there have been cases where people were killed through a belief in God but the holy men - the sufis, the saints all preached peace and have brought that to the societies they were living in.
Wow, wasn't that nice of the muslims! Not to allow their prisoners to die of thirst. A real moral breakthrough.
And how much oppression, how many wars have been started as a direct result of people's belief in these religions? They wouldn't even have been fighting if it wasn't for dysfunctional religion which labels one 'christian' and another 'muslim' and sets their wholly incompatible ideologies at war with each other.


Its funny when you say: "humanist values are as good as those of religious". In fact, humanist values are religious, they have come from religion. If we track all the humanist values to their roots - they will have them deeply rooted in Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism etc.

Anyway, belief in the catholic church or some strict adherence to some organized religion is different than a belief in God, if this was untrue then we would not have people who live normal lives and still hold a strong belief in God.
I don't think humanist values have come from religion - they come from the spirit - the spirit of humanity.
Religion tends to believe in 'moral absolutism' to quote the new pope. Ie god has laid down moral codes which can never be changed by humans. So in the eyes of a catholic for example, a gay person who spends all his time just trying to do good for others is nonetheless a 'sinner' whose whole existence is really an offence to god. A straight person, who owns a weapons factory on the other hand is accounted 'righteous' if he just goes to church once a week and mumbles his way through a few pretty meaningless prayers.
The whole thing is fraught with hypocrisy, and is unable to adapt to changing conditions, or to common sense.

[Jedi]

I don't think humanist values have come from religion - they come from the spirit - the spirit of humanity.
How do you forget hugo grotius? The concept of natural law- one of the first humanist laws respecting the individual and the society at the municipal level and also considering each nation as an individual at an international level bound by the law for self determination?

Besides, 'the spirit of humanity' is religion or atleast was religion during the times when people like hugo grotius, John locke, etc came to be.

but if you mean "the spirit of humanity" - as these things were made for all humans, then BBB you might want to check the history.

The people who gave rise to these humanist values only did it for the white male property owners. The nonproperty owning males, the women, other races, other nationalities! were excluded. Although this was all in universal language- they did not consider the other people human!.

This was not what religion supported, yet it happened, why? - human ignorance, the human intentions of power, of passion for getting ahead and keeping others beneath you. True religion mitigates all this and ends suffering.

it is funny when you see one of the humanist giants- Mr. John Locke - writing about happiness and pursuit of property was actually a slave trader making profits off of the slave trade from africa.

[BlackBillBlake]

How do you forget hugo grotius? The concept of natural law- one of the first humanist laws respecting the individual and the society at the municipal level and also considering each nation as an individual at an international level bound by the law for self determination?

Besides, 'the spirit of humanity' is religion or atleast was religion during the times when people like hugo grotius, John locke, etc came to be.

but if you mean "the spirit of humanity" - as these things were made for all humans, then BBB you might want to check the history.

The people who gave rise to these humanist values only did it for the white male property owners. The nonproperty owning males, the women, other races, other nationalities! were excluded. Although this was all in universal language- they did not consider the other people human!.

This was not what religion supported, yet it happened, why? - human ignorance, the human intentions of power, of passion for getting ahead and keeping others beneath you. True religion mitigates all this and ends suffering.

it is funny when you see one of the humanist giants- Mr. John Locke - writing about happiness and pursuit of property was actually a slave trader making profits off of the slave trade from africa.
Locke is not a philosopher to whom I would give the time of day. But really, he is more a founder of empiricism than humanism, the roots of which go back at least to the rennaissance.

Religion is a set of human formulations about god, the spirit etc and our relation to it, and also our proper standards of conduct. It defines for us our values, if we believe in it. Who can say how much actually comes from the spirit, and how much is simply the prejudice of past ages enshrined as the word of god?
'Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live' it says in the Bible. But nowerdays people don't believe in witchcraft, or the necessity of pleasing god by burning it's adherents. But if we were to be absolutely fixed in our moral view by religion, we'd have to throw away the common sense that tells us that the withcraft fear is false, and go ahead and burn witches anyway.
In India, there was the practice of sutee - widow burning, again, the practitioners of this foul act thought they were doing just what god wanted.
Therefore, I say Libertine is right to say we should question our beliefs and assumptions.
Some religions have supported wars etc in the past, and still do so to-day. The human individual is to be sacrificed on the alter of some outworn and out-dated construct, which has probably been changed through time beyond recognition of those who originally formulated it. But it's ok to encourage others to throw their lives away on behalf of a god they don't actually have any real knowledge or direct experience of. After all, that's what he's told us he wants. Jihad. Crusade.
Religion is often just a brainwashing tool in the hands of those who hold power.
We have to see the difference between religion and spirituality. One may experience something of the spirit, and that may help one to see what is right and what is wrong, and where the fuzzy areas are. That is quite different from accepting what some book or some teacher says. Often religion can actually be one of the major barriers to such direct experience.
And don't forget, there is no consistency between religions when it comes to moral questions. What a christian thinks perfectly ok and in line with god's will is often anathema to a muslim. And vica versa.
So we either go on with conflict or find new values.

[BlackBillBlake]

humanism, the roots of which go back at least to the rennaissance.
.
Actually, I'm wrong about that - I guess it shows a kind of eurocentric bias to say it. Confucianism, which dominated Chinese culture for millenia is also a humanist system. The confucian values are all human values. It is a knowledge of man which leads to their cultivation.
But this is not in any sense creating a disharmony with the 'will of god' (Confucians don't really have such a concept - they would more likely express it as something like 'the way of heaven and earth').
There are basic human values, and these are intrinsic in human beings, if obscured. There is no need of a list of fixed rules, applicable to all people in all times, as many religious would have us believe. 'Jen' or human-heartedness is there in everyone quite naturally. All that is needed is to cultivate it.

[Libertine]

I agree with you when you say that it is ignorant to just assume something is a wonder of God and just not explore it even if one needs to do so- but that does not mean that it is wrong to think that it is caused by God- because at the fundamental level it is.

You see, you might find out everything about a biochemical pathway, I can just sit here and discuss with you each and every step of how Glucose is converted into energy in a tiny cell of our body. However, that does not answer the question why? - why does this happen? why do I survive? why is this making me survive? the question here is about "existence" , it is about life, it is about the physical laws themselves. You cannot answer this, not with out looking deep with in yourself and that only happens when one becomes a devotee of God and surrenders to the higher power that is basically running this universe as we see it now.

Jedi, I respect you, I really do. But, this just sounds like a cop out to me. We don't know "why" something happens? There are several reasons why things happen. And there are several ways to find these things out. You are ultimately trying to lead to some "sole purpose" of existence, and I fail to see things that far. I see nature as the whole of existing things, an energy that cannot be created or destroyed.

I will not lie to you and make up some bullshit to that I "know why" about everything, but that is why we continue to discover things. You go from one end of the spectrum of physicality to automatically introducing a foreign concept "God" (without evidence) that I am supposed to just embrace. And I cannot do that.

[Libertine]

the bottom line of all religion is love...not one religion teaches to hate another, its simply the interpreter who becomes fundamentalist that is the problem....

I read the remainder of your post, indeed. But, I am still stuck on this. Have you ever read any religious text? Bible, perhaps?

If so, where do you get your concept from?

If all religion is love, I had much rather find a new and improved way of finding love--such as humanism, without the spooky deities, hells, and dogmatic rituals.

[sylvanlightning]

My T'ai Chi teacher said of religion: 'Religion is realization of Self.'
I see that behind any mental set of beliefs based on dogma is a set of mystical experiences based on experience. In doing a quick google search on love being the essence of religion, I found this passage from the Urantia book... this is a mystical way much like the rosicrusian or gnostic viewpoints. Hope you enjoy the following; Peace.

*
The Urantia Book -- Part III. The History Of Urantia
PAPER 103: Section 9.
The Essence Of Religion


P1140:7, 103:9.1 Theology deals with the intellectual content of religion, metaphysics (revelation) with the philosophic aspects. Religious experience is the spiritual content of religion. Notwithstanding the mythologic vagaries and the psychologic illusions of the intellectual content of religion, the metaphysical assumptions of error and the techniques of self-deception, the political distortions and the socioeconomic perversions of the philosophic content of religion, the spiritual experience of personal religion remains genuine and valid.

P1140:8, 103:9.2 Religion has to do with feeling, acting, and living, not merely with thinking. Thinking is more closely related to the material life and should be in the main, but not altogether, dominated by reason and the facts of science and, in its nonmaterial reaches toward the spirit realms, by truth. No matter how illusory and erroneous one's theology, one's religion may be wholly genuine and everlastingly true.

P1141:1, 103:9.3 Buddhism in its original form is one of the best religions without a God which has arisen throughout all the evolutionary history of Urantia, although, as this faith developed, it did not remain godless. Religion without faith is a contradiction; without God, a philosophic inconsistency and an intellectual absurdity.

P1141:2, 103:9.4 The magical and mythological parentage of natural religion does not invalidate the reality and truth of the later revelational religions and the consummate saving gospel of the religion of Jesus. Jesus' life and teachings finally divested religion of the superstitions of magic, the illusions of mythology, and the bondage of traditional dogmatism. But this early magic and mythology very effectively prepared the way for later and superior religion by assuming the existence and reality of supermaterial values and beings.

P1141:3, 103:9.5 Although religious experience is a purely spiritual subjective phenomenon, such an experience embraces a positive and living faith attitude toward the highest realms of universe objective reality. The ideal of religious philosophy is such a faith-trust as would lead man unqualifiedly to depend upon the absolute love of the infinite Father of the universe of universes. Such a genuine religious experience far transcends the philosophic objectification of idealistic desire; it actually takes salvation for granted and concerns itself only with learning and doing the will of the Father in Paradise. The earmarks of such a religion are: faith in a supreme Deity, hope of eternal survival, and love, especially of one's fellows.


P1141:4, 103:9.6 When theology masters religion, religion dies; it becomes a doctrine instead of a life. The mission of theology is merely to facilitate the self-consciousness of personal spiritual experience. Theology constitutes the religious effort to define, clarify, expound, and justify the experiential claims of religion, which, in the last analysis, can be validated only by living faith. In the higher philosophy of the universe, wisdom, like reason, becomes allied to faith. Reason, wisdom, and faith are man's highest human attainments. Reason introduces man to the world of facts, to things; wisdom introduces him to a world of truth, to relationships; faith initiates him into a world of divinity, spiritual experience.

P1141:5, 103:9.7 Faith most willingly carries reason along as far as reason can go and then goes on with wisdom to the full philosophic limit; and then it dares to launch out upon the limitless and never-ending universe journey in the sole company of TRUTH.


P1141:6, 103:9.8 Science (knowledge) is founded on the inherent (adjutant spirit) assumption that reason is valid, that the universe can be comprehended. Philosophy (co-ordinate comprehension) is founded on the inherent (spirit of wisdom) assumption that wisdom is valid, that the material universe can be co-ordinated with the spiritual. Religion (the truth of personal spiritual experience) is founded on the inherent (Thought Adjuster) assumption that faith is valid, that God can be known and attained.

P1141:7, 103:9.9 The full realization of the reality of mortal life consists in a progressive willingness to believe these assumptions of reason, wisdom, and faith. Such a life is one motivated by truth and dominated by love; and these are the ideals of objective cosmic reality whose existence cannot be materially demonstrated.

P1142:1, 103:9.10 When reason once recognizes right and wrong, it exhibits wisdom; when wisdom chooses between right and wrong, truth and error, it demonstrates spirit leading. And thus are the functions of mind, soul, and spirit ever closely united and functionally interassociated. Reason deals with factual knowledge; wisdom, with philosophy and revelation; faith, with living spiritual experience. Through truth man attains beauty and by spiritual love ascends to goodness.

P1142:2, 103:9.11 Faith leads to knowing God, not merely to a mystical feeling of the divine presence. Faith must not be overmuch influenced by its emotional consequences. True religion is an experience of believing and knowing as well as a satisfaction of feeling.


P1142:3, 103:9.12 There is a reality in religious experience that is proportional to the spiritual content, and such a reality is transcendent to reason, science, philosophy, wisdom, and all other human achievements. The convictions of such an experience are unassailable; the logic of religious living is incontrovertible; the certainty of such knowledge is superhuman; the satisfactions are superbly divine, the courage indomitable, the devotions unquestioning, the loyalties supreme, and the destinies final -- eternal, ultimate, and universal.



P1142:4, 103:9.13 [Presented by a Melchizedek of Nebadon.]

[mariecstasy]

i have read the bible...there is the old testament and there is the new testament....its in what you choose to read....Christianity is supposed to be about Christ's words....and that is what i choose to read when i read the Bible...and you are not able to find words of hatred in his words...
the old testament, oh hell yeah its full of anger and hatred....
i see where you are coming from....but i do also think its been twisted for each observer, for them to have a reason to feel they are better than others....its a shame, i agree..and i also see why you feel the way that you do....

and i am sorry that out of my whole post, you choose to find something to get stuck on.....but i suppose i did the same to you;)

[Libertine]

Not able to find hatred in Christ's words...hmmm...

He failed to condemn slavery.
He failed to condemn racism (remember "dog woman")
He failed to make any significant change in the world, although being "God" he certainly could've made a remarkable difference.
He insulted and damned those who disagreed with him and didn't want to hear his preaching.
He NEVER resorted to violence out of anger...oops...except that one time he beat the hell out of the moneychangers with a fucking whip...anger management, anyone?
He sent himself to have himself killed to appease himself for being angry at us for wanting knowledge instead of servtitude?

Sounds a little schizo to me.

[Libertine]

My T'ai Chi teacher said of religion: 'Religion is realization of Self.'
I see that behind any mental set of beliefs based on dogma is a set of mystical experiences based on experience. In doing a quick google search on love being the essence of religion, I found this passage from the Urantia book... this is a mystical way much like the rosicrusian or gnostic viewpoints. Hope you enjoy the following; Peace.

*
The Urantia Book -- Part III. The History Of Urantia
PAPER 103: Section 9.
The Essence Of Religion


P1140:7, 103:9.1 Theology deals with the intellectual content of religion, metaphysics (revelation) with the philosophic aspects. Religious experience is the spiritual content of religion. Notwithstanding the mythologic vagaries and the psychologic illusions of the intellectual content of religion, the metaphysical assumptions of error and the techniques of self-deception, the political distortions and the socioeconomic perversions of the philosophic content of religion, the spiritual experience of personal religion remains genuine and valid.

P1140:8, 103:9.2 Religion has to do with feeling, acting, and living, not merely with thinking. Thinking is more closely related to the material life and should be in the main, but not altogether, dominated by reason and the facts of science and, in its nonmaterial reaches toward the spirit realms, by truth. No matter how illusory and erroneous one's theology, one's religion may be wholly genuine and everlastingly true.

P1141:1, 103:9.3 Buddhism in its original form is one of the best religions without a God which has arisen throughout all the evolutionary history of Urantia, although, as this faith developed, it did not remain godless. Religion without faith is a contradiction; without God, a philosophic inconsistency and an intellectual absurdity.

P1141:2, 103:9.4 The magical and mythological parentage of natural religion does not invalidate the reality and truth of the later revelational religions and the consummate saving gospel of the religion of Jesus. Jesus' life and teachings finally divested religion of the superstitions of magic, the illusions of mythology, and the bondage of traditional dogmatism. But this early magic and mythology very effectively prepared the way for later and superior religion by assuming the existence and reality of supermaterial values and beings.

P1141:3, 103:9.5 Although religious experience is a purely spiritual subjective phenomenon, such an experience embraces a positive and living faith attitude toward the highest realms of universe objective reality. The ideal of religious philosophy is such a faith-trust as would lead man unqualifiedly to depend upon the absolute love of the infinite Father of the universe of universes. Such a genuine religious experience far transcends the philosophic objectification of idealistic desire; it actually takes salvation for granted and concerns itself only with learning and doing the will of the Father in Paradise. The earmarks of such a religion are: faith in a supreme Deity, hope of eternal survival, and love, especially of one's fellows.


P1141:4, 103:9.6 When theology masters religion, religion dies; it becomes a doctrine instead of a life. The mission of theology is merely to facilitate the self-consciousness of personal spiritual experience. Theology constitutes the religious effort to define, clarify, expound, and justify the experiential claims of religion, which, in the last analysis, can be validated only by living faith. In the higher philosophy of the universe, wisdom, like reason, becomes allied to faith. Reason, wisdom, and faith are man's highest human attainments. Reason introduces man to the world of facts, to things; wisdom introduces him to a world of truth, to relationships; faith initiates him into a world of divinity, spiritual experience.

P1141:5, 103:9.7 Faith most willingly carries reason along as far as reason can go and then goes on with wisdom to the full philosophic limit; and then it dares to launch out upon the limitless and never-ending universe journey in the sole company of TRUTH.


P1141:6, 103:9.8 Science (knowledge) is founded on the inherent (adjutant spirit) assumption that reason is valid, that the universe can be comprehended. Philosophy (co-ordinate comprehension) is founded on the inherent (spirit of wisdom) assumption that wisdom is valid, that the material universe can be co-ordinated with the spiritual. Religion (the truth of personal spiritual experience) is founded on the inherent (Thought Adjuster) assumption that faith is valid, that God can be known and attained.

P1141:7, 103:9.9 The full realization of the reality of mortal life consists in a progressive willingness to believe these assumptions of reason, wisdom, and faith. Such a life is one motivated by truth and dominated by love; and these are the ideals of objective cosmic reality whose existence cannot be materially demonstrated.

P1142:1, 103:9.10 When reason once recognizes right and wrong, it exhibits wisdom; when wisdom chooses between right and wrong, truth and error, it demonstrates spirit leading. And thus are the functions of mind, soul, and spirit ever closely united and functionally interassociated. Reason deals with factual knowledge; wisdom, with philosophy and revelation; faith, with living spiritual experience. Through truth man attains beauty and by spiritual love ascends to goodness.

P1142:2, 103:9.11 Faith leads to knowing God, not merely to a mystical feeling of the divine presence. Faith must not be overmuch influenced by its emotional consequences. True religion is an experience of believing and knowing as well as a satisfaction of feeling.


P1142:3, 103:9.12 There is a reality in religious experience that is proportional to the spiritual content, and such a reality is transcendent to reason, science, philosophy, wisdom, and all other human achievements. The convictions of such an experience are unassailable; the logic of religious living is incontrovertible; the certainty of such knowledge is superhuman; the satisfactions are superbly divine, the courage indomitable, the devotions unquestioning, the loyalties supreme, and the destinies final -- eternal, ultimate, and universal.



P1142:4, 103:9.13 [Presented by a Melchizedek of Nebadon.]

Well, my philosophy says that religion is the realization of an invention of myths to cause dependency in oneself. And one needs to be weaned from such dogma in order to be free in mind.

[sylvanlightning]

Whispers of a dream...

[Libertine]

I love people without religion.

[sylvanlightning]

Well, my philosophy says that religion is the realization of an invention of myths to cause dependency in oneself. And one needs to be weaned from such dogma in order to be free in mind.

All philosophy comes the causal plane... the plane of the mind. The mind is a simple slave to formless spirit, it the best case scenario, at its worst it is a blind tyrant causing dependency on reason and logic silencing the intuition and the heart as well as the softer whisper of Self. Dogma, one hears this words so much... it reminds me of moldy books, it reminds me of stagnant energy, it reminds me of being a blind follower in what one has read or heard and not in what one has experienced. A fool has no such dogma, just this road that rises to meet the feet.

[Libertine]

All philosophy comes the causal plane... the plane of the mind. The mind is a simple slave to formless spirit, it the best case scenario, at its worst it is a blind tyrant causing dependency on reason and logic silencing the intuition and the heart as well as the softer whisper of Self. Dogma, one hears this words so much... it reminds me of moldy books, it reminds me of stagnant energy, it reminds me of being a blind follower in what one has read or heard and not in what one has experienced. A fool has no such dogma, just this road that rises to meet the feet.

"slave to formless spirit"-- ? Explain.

The heart is an organ that pumps blood, it has no intuition--that would come from your mind (soul=psuche=psyche=mind).

Experiences are due to perception. Perception comes from the mind.

Now, we can talk this "spirit" talk all day long, but so far I see no evidence to even consider such a foreign concept.

Although, I am open to any that you may have.

[mariecstasy]

I love people without religion.as do i...they are the ones, as you have stated at the beginning of this thread, who have found their own answers...its not their fault people after them have decided to heed their words as a crutch instead of finding their answers on their own...
however, i do feel though, that each spirit leader has things that we can learn from and help to integrate, sometimes they put into words the things we havent been able to identify yet.
again though, all the spirit leaders, ones from the spirit do not teach anything but love. there are people out there preaching falsehoods....
we dont need to have anyone tell us anything, we do have the answers within, some people though havent yet realized they have the keys....
and they are weaker in that they wont find the answers themselves but i honor their desire to do the best they are able to in their capacity at that moment.


and with that, i back from the conversation because we have two different view points and debate does nothing but gives each person the opportunity to hear their own voice

[Libertine]

I don't see where we disagree too much. But, I think what you call "spirit", I call "mind". I see the "soul" as being the mind (psuche=psyche) and the "spirit" as nothing more than energy.

But, philosophically I don't see much of a disagreement.

[sylvanlightning]

Right, show me this spirit you keep talking about.... how like the tao.
Sure the heart is an organ, yet it is still energy; matter is an illusion,
there is much more empty space w/in an atom than anything else
and even the nucleus pops in and out of detection, sometimes wave
sometimes particle. Observe a simple water crystal and you will see
how responsive it is to its vibratory environment.

Each organ also maps onto an astral color, an emotion, a sound....
there are older cultures than this western scientific culture, we are a baby.
Look to the Chinese or Indian views on these matters for experience.

Awareness does not come from the mind, when one trys to determine
where consciousness lives one can search each and every cell of the brain
and not find it. Study the body my friend, for this is the key to the universe.

You would have gotten on well with plato and socrates.

Intuition comes from a gut reaction in the stomach. Study the concept of body memory. Study how dreams are filled with images from the body, that one has not made conscious.

Your saying prove it to me, how does this encourage any dialogue. Its a one sided discussion. You can only prove it to yourself via. life experiences you open to. Physician heal thyself and to thine ownself be true. Yet what of the value of others, should we withdraw to the cave to isolate ourselves, can we listen to see how these words from the other feel?

[mariecstasy]

ok, i lie, i will not back away cause now i am intrigued....

But, I think what you call "spirit", I call "mind". I see the "soul" as being the mind (psuche=psyche) and the "spirit" as nothing more than energy.


i dont call the spirit mind...my mind fucks with me...it twists...and complicates...i have found, for me things that come from the mind are not always to be heeded to...perhaps when discussing other leaders as spirit i do mean mind though...but many times we have to open the minds to increase the energy....i think they are interconnected....(but being at work right now, i cant give my response its all and im twisting myself;))

i do see spirit as energy....but what does that mean to you? is the mind or the energy the driving force behind you? behind life?

[mariecstasy]

You would have gotten on well with plato and socrates.



i love those feckers......
i wanted to give you reputation for that reply sylvan but it appears to be gone....what an excellent answer....i havent been able to listen to my body at all...i am too stuck in my mind, and have a hard time getting out of it...cause when i am in there, like plato and socrates, i have a hard time finding truth, because everything contradicts itself!!!

[sylvanlightning]

Personal truth is so subjective.... and I think these sharings are best done around a campfire with a bowl and some liquid spirits ;)

[Libertine]

Yes, I think energy is the "force behind it all". I see no other reason to think differently.

[Libertine]

Personal truth is so subjective.... and I think these sharings are best done around a campfire with a bowl and some liquid spirits ;)

You are correct, indeed, my friend. 100% correct.

[mariecstasy]

what is the force behind it all though? what do you mean

[mariecstasy]

Personal truth is so subjective.... and I think these sharings are best done around a campfire with a bowl and some liquid spirits ;)
i love campfire discussions! esp when they have substances to quiet the ego and drop inhibitions....yeah for bowls and spirits....

[Libertine]

Energy is the force. Energy just IS.

Energy/Matter cannot be created or destroyed, but can only change form. I see no "purpose" behind it other than what we create ourselves. However, I do believe in truths and I believe that much of religion and spirituality rely on outside, foreign concepts in order to answer questions that have yet to be answered.

[mariecstasy]

where does love come in it all? or does it?
and why are we here? can we increase this energy?
sheesh i wanna know what you are thinking and feeling...

[sylvanlightning]

We are living messengers and should not squanders this precious life investing in others, especially disincarnate entities, spiritual bank accounts.

[mariecstasy]

We are living messengers and should not squanders this precious life investing in others, especially disincarnate entities, spiritual bank accounts.

huh?

[Libertine]

where does love come in it all? or does it?

Love is an expression, it is subjective not an objective entity.

and why are we here?

Why not?

can we increase this energy? sheesh i wanna know what you are thinking and feeling...

Energy cannot be created or destroyed, but can only change form. The "increase" is only an illusion because everything is energy.

[mariecstasy]

well you sound very at peace with your beliefs and i am still working and trying to find mine. so like my little blue faerie in my sig i shall just continue to contemplate it all and hopefully one day i will know

[Libertine]

I am evolving as well. I think it is very unproductive to stay in one place. I discover new things each day.

Never stop growing. I'd rather flow like the river, then remain stagnant like a pond.

[mariecstasy]

its impossible being the person that i am, because i am a philosopher and live from my head, to not change daily....not be touched by something...not have a truth manifest,
i'm personally trying to figure out the head portion of all this though....
and the consciousness....
im too wrapped around myself and havent gotten over myself to see a bigger thing yet...i see it, mentally, just not so much do i feel it..

have you seen What the Bleep do we (K)now?

[Libertine]

No, but I am wanting to get a copy of it for sure.

[mariecstasy]

oh man, its mindblowing....least i thought so! i watched it on Saturday....and just loved it!!!
i think you will enjoy it....even if you dont agree, it will give you something to think about....

[BlackBillBlake]

Personal truth is so subjective.... and I think these sharings are best done around a campfire with a bowl and some liquid spirits ;)
Cannabis might be better than alchohol - like the campfire idea though :sunglasse

[Libertine]

I agree, Bill.

[sylvanlightning]

We are living messengers and should not squanders this precious life investing in others, especially disincarnate entities, spiritual bank accounts.

We are speakers of the poetic flame.

We give away our power, our original voice,
by quoting others truths. We give away our creative capital
by devotion to something outside of ourselves.

Yeshua said this same things when the words
'The Kingdom of Heaven is within you.'
Of, course I could rephrase this with my own words:
'Futility is trying to find your own voice in somebody elses words.'

When we place our trust in something outside of ourselves,
when we believe in something we have not experienced,
it as if we are investing our time and energy into somebody/something
elses energetic bank account.

I hope this is a bit more, down to earth, Marie... :)

[mariecstasy]

def more down to earth and the same thing i was saying;)

[Libertine]

www.myspace.com/libertineguru (http://www.myspace.com/libertineguru)

We all need a little space.

Libertine.... Blowin' Minds One Trip At A Time

[sylvanlightning]

Thank you for your hospitality.

[Libertine]

Thank you and all of you for your comments. This was a very informative and uplifting discussion.

[BlackBillBlake]

Libertine - ever read the Marquis de Sade? Try 'Justine' - the good Marquis says it's all about libertines! It's a pretty unusual book.
http://img421.imageshack.us/img421/589/ray25ud.jpg

[MollyThe Hippy]

Cannabis might be better than alchohol - like the campfire idea though :sunglasse
hash is lucifer's potion... that's why i like it

[BlackBillBlake]

Shiva's too I've heard - then again. some say Shiva = Lucifer.

[Libertine]

Hey, this thread was about me. :)

http://www.hipgallery.com/photopost2/data/500/LibertineHalo.JPGhttp://www.hipgallery.com/photopost2/data/500/woodstock_arch.gif

[GanjaPrince]

Hey, this thread was about me. :)


Yup, it's all about you, you are me, you are all. all is one!

[Libertine]

:)

[Turn]

Hey Libertine, don't answer if you don't want to, but were you abused as a kid in any way?

[Libertine]

Nope. I had a good childhood--too good.

It's in the adulthood that I am abused.

[Lying in a field]

I love libertine, but anyone with a myspace account can never be considered a guru

[Libertine]

It's a new age, man. :)

[Lying in a field]

It's a new age, man. :)
Yes...for picking up hot myspace chicks. I can dig. ;)