If the whole world was catholic

[Chodpa]

what would it be like?

[thehipsterdufus]

what would it be like?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahahahahahahahahahaha.......... .....ohHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHohohohohohohohohohohohohoh ohohohoHAHAHAHAHAhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahaha!!



Ow, my sides hurt from laughing.............

any other questions?

[Epiphany]

It's trying..... and it won't be pretty. I wouldn't be suprised when they are in support of the mark of the beast

[Stiff_Bizquette]

I wouldn't be suprised when they are in support of the mark of the beasthow can u say something like that? the catholic church is the only christian church that stands for shit the rest of them just detereorate as time goes on. while there are bad periods with bad leaders and bad priests that does not make the whole religion bad.

if the whole world were catholic though then we would just start from that and butcher it away to thousands of "partially catholic" denominations and nothing would have changed.

[Epiphany]

I was raised Catholic, so I know how it goes. The Catholic church hardly basis it's teachings upon the actual words or Jesus Christ, in favor of their own traditions. They leave out so many key parts of the Bible that it's rather disturbing. For one, they don't follow the examples of baptism, which clearly tells us in the bible that it's for repentance. A baby obviously cannot repent of their sins. They don't teach about the holy ghost, which is a specific teaching of Jesus Christ, and he said himself that the only way to enter his kingdom is through water and spirit. Not to mention the whole idea of limbo. I would like my former priest to show me some scriptual reference that backs up the idea of there being a waiting place for souls. Mary is a woman, she is the mother of Jesus, but she is just a woman. Show me in the bible where the idea of praying to her or any of the saints is stated. Jesus said that no one shall come to the father except through him.

Catholic prohecies predict an evil pope, known as the Black Pope, that bares quite a striking resemblance to the False Prophet mentioned in Revelation 13. We know that the antichrist will be preceded by the false prophet. The false prophet is the spiritual advisor to the antichrist. During the end times, the holy roman empire will be revived. If you look at history, the holy roman empire has always had a pope as it's spiritual leader.

According to End Time Magazine's, Irvin Baxter, I find it intriguing that he refers to the Catholic church as the Woman on the Beast in Revelation 17. "The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet and was glitter with gold, precious stones, and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand".... He notes that these colors are predominant in the clothing of priests/popes. The pope has a golden crown, and it's interesting that the chalices served during communion are often golden cups.

[Ayesha]

I'm sorry, the catholic church doesn't teach the Baptism and the Holy Ghost??? Are you sure? You should come to a catholic church in Europe.

[peaceful420]

They would destroy the world. It's a simple as that. Everyone would just be drones. No diversity. Just no-sex-before-marriage-read-the-bible-on-a-daily-basis-go-to-church-three-times-a-week drones. That's only if they were all practicing catholics, not those who rebel or refuse to live that lifestyle. That's what would probably happen. A huge rebellion. But I can't see the future, so who knows.

[Epiphany]

I'm sorry, the catholic church doesn't teach the Baptism and the Holy Ghost??? Are you sure? You should come to a catholic church in Europe.
Glad to hear that teach it over there. Too bad they don't teach it here.

[Ayesha]

Yes, here they teach it. I am very surprised that they don't do it in America. I'm not catholic , you see, but my parents are and I felt very surprised, because the Baptism and the Holy Ghost are fundamental to the Catholic Church Teachings.

[POPthree13]

The whole 'non-barbarian' world was catholic at one point. We had all kinds of kewl bon-fires where heretics were burned at the stake and world wars to stop the spread of other religions. Scientists were executed publicly for saying the earth revolved around the sun and people were tortured for owning a copy of the bible. You had to pay to be forgiven for sins and all of your spiritual guidence was given in latin (so you couldn't understand it anyway.)

Sounds like quite a party to me!

[Chodpa]

So to the above posts, it sounds like it would be quite similar to living under the Taliban?!

[Ayesha]

Well... The problem isn't the fact that people are catholic, the problem is that some people are unfair, full of prejudices and don't respect the others. What if I asked: what if the whole world was Jew or Muslim or Budist or whatever? It would be the same! Look, I don't agree with the Catholic Church in most of their positions, but I know a lot of nice catholics. My parents and most of my family is catholic, but, as I said in another thread, first of all they are human beings and they are able to decide for themselves what is wrong and what is right. They are no ignorants and they are very liberal, I can asure you that. Sometimes we have to realize that the religion can be a cultural heritage. I believe that there's only one God, but you have to give him one name. Sometimes you don't even think of that, but nevertheless you will probably choose the name that you are used to, the name that belongs to your roots.
I wouldn't like to live in a world that had only one religion. I like the fact that there are many, so that we can make a choice and our culture is richer. Now, please don't crucify all the catholic people. Catholics make shit, Muslims make shit, Jews make shit... People make shit. Fundamentalism is shit.

[TheHammerSpeaks]

Of course the Church in North America teaches about baptism and the Holy Ghost, no matter how many wacko fundamentalists say otherwise. Baptism and confirmation are sacraments.

[POPthree13]

TheHammer... what they were saying is that Jesus taught us that baptism was a tool to repent and be born again. Catholics do this shortly after birth so the ritual has lost all meaning to the participant - since they will not even remember it.

Ayesha... I certainly wasn't trying to say all Catholics are bad. I have a number of them in my family. The Catholic establishment has proven to us throughout history that it can not be trusted.

An no, I don't think a world of all Jewish or all Buddhist would be NEARLY as bad. Christianity and Islam are sister religions which have VERY similar philosophies and attitudes. Yes, the rule under Catholic or Taliban would be similar I think. They have both used a lot of violence to acheive their goals.

[Ayesha]

We are talking about nowadays, right? I agree, the Catholic Church in the 16th Century, with the Inquisition, was simillar to the Taliban Regime, but you can't say the same about the Catholic Church of the 21st Century! Catholics don't kill women because they're not wearing the Burca, ok?
By the way, it's true, Catholicism and Islamism are very simillar... But don't you believe that the other religions can have members that do horrible things too? well... Christ died because of the persecutions of some fundamentalist Jews. In India, there are lots of people starving and guess what, nobody cares because they're from an inferior casta...wow, one for hinduism... Yes, there are some religions that motivate much more cruelty than others, but they all do. The problem isn't the religion, the problem is the fundamentalism and you can find that everywhere.

[POPthree13]

Yes, and the Catholic Chruch will tell you to your face that they are quite concerned with fostering a fundamentalist following. Bad things can come from anywhere you are right, does that mean we turn a blind eye to whole institutuions that promote this type of behavior?

Every century since it's founding the church has been involved in some murderous plot to hold on to control. Yes, things have improved in the last couple hundred years but you still have an institution which suppresses knowledge and disregards science, holds on to control through fear and I guess like little boys a lot! I have a hard time pointing to a SINGLE good thing which has come out of the church.

[Epiphany]

TheHammer... what they were saying is that Jesus taught us that baptism was a tool to repent and be born again. Catholics do this shortly after birth so the ritual has lost all meaning to the participant - since they will not even remember it.Exactly my point

And the point on the holy spirit is that Catholic church doesn't teach the fundamentals of recieving it. It as if the church completely disregards the entire book of Acts.

[TheHammerSpeaks]

"And the point on the holy spirit is that Catholic church doesn't teach the fundamentals of recieving it."

As opposed to, let me guess, the Pentacostals? Do you see what I was talking about when I said fundamentalist wackos?

[Epiphany]

"And the point on the holy spirit is that Catholic church doesn't teach the fundamentals of recieving it."

As opposed to, let me guess, the Pentacostals? Do you see what I was talking about when I said fundamentalist wackos?
LOL, so then every single person, including Peter himself, was a fundamentalist wacko, when they ALL recieved the holy spirit during Pentecost and spoke in tongues in the book of Acts? After Jesus himself said that when he died, God would send down his spirit and the people shall speak with new tongues.

Well, the infilling of the holy spirit is mentioned over and over again by Jesus himself, so I must be a fundamentalist wacko for following Jesus's teachings!

[Ayesha]

Of course, we can't pretend we don't see when an instituition does something very wrong and cruel. Any instituion. Crimes must be punished.
And yes, the Catholic Church has been putting obstacles to Science, but I'm not quite sure they still threat people through fear... But once more, all the religions do that. I don't agree with it at all, but the fact is that when there are dogmas, Science will always seem like a threat. I think the Catholic Church must change in many aspects and this is one. But then again,all religions must. Don't make them your scapegoat. If you want to criticize that, you have to criticize all the religions.

Oh... You can't remeber any positive things they did? Oh, I do! The Jesuits went to Brazil, in the 16th Century, to protect the indigenous from the stupid colonists that only wanted to slave them...And they were doing a great job, but then the King of Portugal took them out of there...I'm not pleased to say this, because I'm portuguese, you see. Nowadays, every year the missionaries go to poor countries to help people. Last year I spoke a missionary, he was in Mexico, among other countries, and I really admired him...Besides, at least here, the churches are always doing campaigns to help people... And I can tell you that this is not charity, this is solidarity.
The Catholic Church made a lot of cruel things and I think they are still
very wrong in some of their positions, sometimes they defend absurd values, sometimes I think they seem ignorants... I'm always arguing with my catholic friends because of that, but they made and still make things that I admire...I will always admire solidarity, even if it is practised by a catholic or a muslim or a hinduist or a budist or whatever!

[cerridwen]

Every religion has its flaw. The Catholic Church is the only christian church that stays pretty hard core to its teachings, and doesn't evolve very quickly with society, and it's good and bad in many ways.

Catholicism, unforutunately, has gotten a bad wrap lately because of the molesting priests and its stand on homosexuality in an era of political correction and dramatic social change, which is why a lot of people (including myself) has steered away from it.

Pick any religion, can you imagine EVERYONE in the world worshiping only that faith? We need the diversity in this world, which is why there are different languages, different cultures, and of course, different religions. What we ought to focus on is despite our differences, we have to learn to live with them and respect others for their differences.

[Lilyrayne]

Every religion has its flaw. The Catholic Church is the only christian church that stays pretty hard core to its teachings, and doesn't evolve very quickly with society, and it's good and bad in many ways.
I beg to differ, there are many other branches/denominations/churches of Christianity that have stayed true to it's teachings and haven't evolved. In fact, while I am not highly knowledgeable on this subject, I would think Catholicism is the one church that DOESN'T stay true to it's teachings, as per all the rule changes and what not by the pope! I really honestly don't know of any other branch of Christianity in which the basic rules and tenets of living life are determined by man and not God, and because it's determined by man, it changes according to man's eyes how it should change, and I know that I have read several articles about how the popes changed parts of it's doctrine.

[POPthree13]

If you think that the Catholic church is just like all other religions then I guess we will have to disagree. I do see your point, but the Catholic Church is the richest and most powerful institution on the planet. They have always been deeply involved in politics and have always taught that salvation was theirs (and theirs alone) to hand out. MANY other religions do not teach that, many other religions avoid weatlh and power. And to my knowledge no other religion has a 'king' which sits on a throne in his own country with a crown.

Am I saying that all other elgiions must be good? No. But I am saying you can't just say it is like every other religion.

[TheHammerSpeaks]

"LOL, so then every single person, including Peter himself, was a fundamentalist wacko, when they ALL recieved the holy spirit during Pentecost and spoke in tongues in the book of Acts?"

No, you're twisting my words around and you know it. It is fundamentalist nonsense, however, to believe that glossolalia is the one sure-fire sign that the Holy Spirit has filled a person. To you people, faith doesn't matter; works don't matter; the only thing that matters is glossiolia. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

"Well, the infilling of the holy spirit is mentioned over and over again by Jesus himself, so I must be a fundamentalist wacko for following Jesus's teachings!"

No, your a fundamentalist wacko for taking the bible literally.

[TheHammerSpeaks]

I'm sorry, that was harsh. I don't think your a fundamentalist wacko. I'm tolerant of most Christian denominations, but the Pentecostals really irritate me. They're selling the easiest way to salvation and the false hope that it offers. Speaking in tongues requires none of the fear or effort or resignation that is necessary for salvation; it only requires a powerful desire to be saved (which is a part of salvation, but not the most important part). The Pentacostals are showmen. I think you should read an unbiased history of the movement. They were televangelists before television. If you're still convinced of your convictions after that, then I feel sorry for you. I'm apologising for what I said to you, but I still hate that church and all its lies.

[POPthree13]

I have attended churches of almost every denomenation and if you want to see people excited about God, searching for God, living for God go to a pentecostel service. Sure they are loud, and rambunctious... why does that scare people so much? The bible is full of singing and dancing for God. (And healing and speaking in tongues.) CHurch has to be dead to be effective?


"Speaking in tongues requires none of the fear or effort or resignation that is necessary for salvation"
Who the hell is your saviour? I don't remember Jesus teachign about fear or effort or resignation. He taught about love, acceptance, and not judging people. Fear is a tool of the dark side and if it is part of your religion I would hate to meet your God.

[Jozak]

I beg to differ, there are many other branches/denominations/churches of Christianity that have stayed true to it's teachings and haven't evolved. In fact, while I am not highly knowledgeable on this subject, I would think Catholicism is the one church that DOESN'T stay true to it's teachings, as per all the rule changes and what not by the pope! I really honestly don't know of any other branch of Christianity in which the basic rules and tenets of living life are determined by man and not God, and because it's determined by man, it changes according to man's eyes how it should change, and I know that I have read several articles about how the popes changed parts of it's doctrine.
Basic Catholic teaching has stayed the same for hunderes of years. What are you talking about specifically? The last big changes were at Vatican II over 30 years ago. Those main changes were vernacular languages (no more whole latin masses) for ordinary time masses (not in holiday seasons) and recognizing non Catholics being able to attain salvation.

[TheHammerSpeaks]

"I have attended churches of almost every denomenation and if you want to see people excited about God, searching for God, living for God go to a pentecostel service. Sure they are loud, and rambunctious... why does that scare people so much? The bible is full of singing and dancing for God. (And healing and speaking in tongues.) CHurch has to be dead to be effective?"

It's not the music or anything like that that bothers me. It's the doctrine, pure and simple.

"Who the hell is your saviour? I don't remember Jesus teachign about fear or effort or resignation. He taught about love, acceptance, and not judging people. Fear is a tool of the dark side and if it is part of your religion I would hate to meet your God."

Fear is what any humble person feels when he recognizes his own weakness when compared to God and the fact that the fate of his immortal soul is entirely in God's hands. Effort is what goes into good works and believing in Christ's new convenant (as opposed to passively letting the Holy Spirit "fill you" or, all of a sudden, being "born again"). And resignation is that final effort of giving yourself entirely to God.

And no, perhaps Christ did not teach specifically about these things, and that's one thing that really irritates me about fundamentalists; that they don't develop Christ's teachings through to their natural implications, and that they dehumanize faith to such a degree that it must be perfect and unquestioning. It's impossible for any thinking human being to never doubt his faith, and if you find such a person, I question whether he really has faith at all.

[Epiphany]

No, you're twisting my words around and you know it. It is fundamentalist nonsense, however, to believe that glossolalia is the one sure-fire sign that the Holy Spirit has filled a person. To you people, faith doesn't matter; works don't matter; the only thing that matters is glossiolia. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad. Uh... without my faith, NOTHING would matter, for one. If works didn't matter, I would sound something like this: "Praise God, but I'm not going to help this person over here"... not very religious is it?



No, your a fundamentalist wacko for taking the bible literally.The only things you shouldn't take literally in the bible, are things such as, "removing the plank for your eye", which we know is a metaphor, and the creatures of Revelation because we know they represent nations/kings, etc. I'm filled with the holy ghost. Do you want to tell me that speaking in a language, that I have no control of because the words do not come from anything I have ever learned in my entire life is not literal? I have never spoken in this language before. I would much rather be a Jesus freak and be with him one day, then looking, "normal", in society's eyes.

I agree with POPthree13. It was not until I became a member of the Pentecostal church that I witnessed people who were honestly on fire for God. The Christian school taught me a bit about true baptism, and the holy spirit, so they come in second on my list. Sure, people aren't use to it because so many factions of religion have broken away from how it was back then. Yes, people in the bible sang and danced. They rejoiced. They didn't sit perfectly still with their hands in their laps, singing quietly. Think about it, if your Savior was sitting next to you, would you be sitting there like a bump on a log, or would you be full of joy?


Exodus 15:28 "Aaron's sister took a tambourine in her hand, and all the women followed her, with tambourines and dancing"
1 Samuel 6:13 "David, wearing a linen ephod, danced before the Lord with all his might"
Psalms 149:3 "Let them praise his name with dancing and make music to him with tambourine and harp"
I would have to agree in saying that some Christian churches have remained true. But as far as Pentecostals, I will tell you that my church eats, sleeps, and breathes Jesus. They praise him when the sun comes up, during the day, and when the sun goes down. I cannot think of anything that they have changed or added to the word. They are a very blessed group of people.

Jozak, Peter was the rock that that the church was founded on, correct? The Catholic church doesn't preach his teachings today, so tell me how it has not changed. Peter taught baptism in the name of Jesus. The Catholic church baptizes with the name of the Trinity. Peter taught of the holy ghost and tongues, My Catholic family and friends looked at me funny when I brought up tongues. The Catholic church wouldn't dare dance, let alone move while singing it's hymns. I just went over all the verses about dancing in the Bible. So, please explain to me exactly how the Catholic church remains true?

[Epiphany]

Speaking in tongues doesn't require effort? Um, the first recievers of God's spirit spent time in earnest prayer, locked away in a room before it was unleashed upon them. Does that not sound like effort?

[TheHammerSpeaks]

"Speaking in tongues doesn't require effort? Um, the first recievers of God's spirit spent time in earnest prayer, locked away in a room before it was unleashed upon them. Does that not sound like effort?"

That's right, the apostles did. They were not, all of a sudden, born again, they frequently doubted their faith, and often failed follow God's Word. And yet many of those pathetic people eventually became martyrs. That takes effort, and not just "time in earnest prayer" but a whole lifetime of devotion.

Also, what about John the Baptist? Didn't he receive the Spirit in his mother's womb before the apostles?

[POPthree13]

"I have attended churches of almost every denomenation and if you want to see people excited about God, searching for God, living for God go to a pentecostel service. Sure they are loud, and rambunctious... why does that scare people so much? The bible is full of singing and dancing for God. (And healing and speaking in tongues.) CHurch has to be dead to be effective?"

It's not the music or anything like that that bothers me. It's the doctrine, pure and simple.

"Who the hell is your saviour? I don't remember Jesus teachign about fear or effort or resignation. He taught about love, acceptance, and not judging people. Fear is a tool of the dark side and if it is part of your religion I would hate to meet your God."

Fear is what any humble person feels when he recognizes his own weakness when compared to God and the fact that the fate of his immortal soul is entirely in God's hands. Effort is what goes into good works and believing in Christ's new convenant (as opposed to passively letting the Holy Spirit "fill you" or, all of a sudden, being "born again"). And resignation is that final effort of giving yourself entirely to God.

And no, perhaps Christ did not teach specifically about these things, and that's one thing that really irritates me about fundamentalists; that they don't develop Christ's teachings through to their natural implications, and that they dehumanize faith to such a degree that it must be perfect and unquestioning. It's impossible for any thinking human being to never doubt his faith, and if you find such a person, I question whether he really has faith at all.
I guess if you think that is the key salvation then go with that man! Fear that God is more powerful that you? Sounds like and ego trip. I would take comfort that in the fact that you have a strogn ally.
It takes effort to do good works? I find that good works repay themselves again and again.
Resignation... yes putting all of your fear and worry on him. Realizing you control nothing. I think that is a releif.

[Lilyrayne]

Basic Catholic teaching has stayed the same for hunderes of years. What are you talking about specifically? The last big changes were at Vatican II over 30 years ago. Those main changes were vernacular languages (no more whole latin masses) for ordinary time masses (not in holiday seasons) and recognizing non Catholics being able to attain salvation.
Well there are several examples that I remember, but the only one I can think of off the top of my head is that for Catholics, eating meat on Fridays used to be a sin. Then the pope or someone went and changed the rules and decided that it WASN'T a sin. And this wasn't that long ago, either. This is also a perfect example of my comment about how in Catholicism, MAN determines how people who follow it live, not God himself.

Besides, it doesn't matter WHEN changes were made or what those changes were... the fact remains that there WERE changes, so you can't say that the principles or doctrines of the Catholic church is the only one that has remained unchanged or true to it's origins. I don't think you can say that about any denomination, really.

[Jozak]

It's foolsih to try to compare a Catholic mass to a Pentacostal service. You will get no where. Catholic masses happen to be very traditional and reserved. If you went back in time 500 years ago the basic mass would be the exact same as it is today, with some changes here and there.

Epiphany, Pentacostal services scare the hell out of me. I don't like them. It does not even feel like Church to me. You call it, "on fire for Christ" or whatever, but I don't like loud outbursts, shouting, in fact, I laughed much of the time. It was absurd to me, and I felt like a lot of it was bullshit, people putting it on for show. I respect Pentacostal services if they help people in their faith with Christ, such as yourself, but you have to understand and respect the fact that most Catholics do not want to worship that way. If it works for you epiphany, GREAT, more power to you, but don't knock a Cathoic's faith in Christ becasue it is different than yours, especially when our way was long before yours. Unfortunently, the Pentacostal church does not have the best reputation of being tolearnt of other people's faith, which is a big reason I don't like it. I LOVE catholic masses, I have been to almost every other denomination you can think of, and they just aren't for me. My mom was not Catholic when she married my father, and she fell in love with it and converted (my dad did not make her or even pressure her about it.) People have different tastes, that's all.

[TheHammerSpeaks]

"Fear that God is more powerful that you? Sounds like and ego trip. I would take comfort that in the fact that you have a strogn ally."

It's really the exact opposite of an ego trip. It's only natural to fear, respect, and be in awe of a being greater than yourself. An ally is an equal partner, and I am certainly not the equal of God.

"It takes effort to do good works? I find that good works repay themselves again and again."

Repay in what way? If you're talking about that 'warm fuzzy feeling inside' then sure, but practically, good people get short end of the stick.

"Resignation... yes putting all of your fear and worry on him. Realizing you control nothing. I think that is a releif."

Yes, it is a relief. Unfortunately, I don't think anyone can feel that way all the time.

P.S.

To Epiphany:

If you were raised Catholic and feel that glossalolia is so important, then why didn't you join the charismatic movement?

[POPthree13]

Allies do not have to be equal. But I think ALL of life is an extension of God. Not separate from it, part of it. Just my opinion. I feel like a skin cell on the big organism of God. Do my skin cells fear me because I am bigger, more powerful and in control? (I know that sound rediculous, but I hope you can see my point.)

I do good deeds unto others because it is the right thing to do, not for reward. However, I have never really wanted for anything and I can't explain why except that you are given back many times what you give. I beleive in this whole-heartedly and your bible tells you so, so disagree if you'd like.

Sure, no one can feel at peace all the time, but some of us are at peace a lot more than others.

[TheHammerSpeaks]

"Allies do not have to be equal."

I suppose you're right. But the fact still remains that if I anger God, He could destroy me or do far worse. He commanded that Moses and his people wander in the desert for forty days after Moses hit a rock with a stick. He kicked humanity out of paradise after Adam and Eve ate a fruit.

"But I think ALL of life is an extension of God. Not separate from it, part of it. Just my opinion."

I don't think that the relationship between God and His creation can be understood, so you may be right for all I know, or at least partially right.

"I feel like a skin cell on the big organism of God. Do my skin cells fear me because I am bigger, more powerful and in control? (I know that sound rediculous, but I hope you can see my point.)"

I think I do see your point, but I don't like the analogy. People, of course, are far more complex than skin cells. Skin cells don't have free will or even the illusion of it. They do as their DNA tells them. We do have a choice to obey God or not. And even if everything is predetermined, and this is Leibnitz's best of all possible worlds, and we are always doing God's Will whether we are aware of it or not, that fear that we may be displeasing Him is always present.

"I do good deeds unto others because it is the right thing to do, not for reward. However, I have never really wanted for anything and I can't explain why except that you are given back many times what you give. I beleive in this whole-heartedly and your bible tells you so, so disagree if you'd like."

I do agree. However, I have two questions: 1) Do you believe that good things happen to good people in this life? And 2) How can your (or anyone else's, for that matter) standard of good compare to that of a perfect being?

"Sure, no one can feel at peace all the time, but some of us are at peace a lot more than others."

That's true, and I do think that there are some people out there who are at peace because they have truly surrendered themselves to God. I hope to be one of those people, at least before I die. However, I think that many of those people who have found peace are really just ignorant. I don't know if it is right to sacrafice thought for peace, but I do know that since I've been thinking about these problems, I can't stop. And even if I could, I probably wouldn't.

[Epiphany]

In the past, The Catholic church holds the record for killing an estimated 68 million Christians. There are still some nations today where your life would be in danger if you were to oppose the teachings of the Catholic church. We know that in Revelation, this one world religion will persecute and kill those who are not in line with the plan. If they did then, continue to do so now, then who is to say that they aren't the ones who will do so in the future? There are too many similarities between the catholic church and the prophecies of Revelation. It's rather frightening.

[Jozak]

In the past, The Catholic church holds the record for killing an estimated 68 million Christians. There are still some nations today where your life would be in danger if you were to oppose the teachings of the Catholic church. We know that in Revelation, this one world religion will persecute and kill those who are not in line with the plan. If they did then, continue to do so now, then who is to say that they aren't the ones who will do so in the future? There are too many similarities between the catholic church and the prophecies of Revelation. It's rather frightening.
Prove it. And when I say prove it, I mean with a reliable source.

[Epiphany]

Between 5000 and 6000 Protestants were drowned by Spanish Catholic Troops
1572 In France about 20,000 Huguenots were killed on command of pope Pius V. Until 17th century 200,000 flee. [DO31]
17th century: Catholics slay Gaspard de Coligny, a Protestant leader. After murdering him
17th century: Catholics sack the city of Magdeburg/Germany: roughly 30,000 Protestants were slain
1391 Seville's Jews killed (Archbishop Martinez leading
In the years 1942-1943 also in Croatia existed numerous extermination camps, run by Catholic Ustasha under their dictator Ante Paveliç,
Fued in Ireland between Catholics and Protestants
The figure, "68 million", was given by Irvin Baxter in his "End Time Prophecy". If I had the book with me, I could you give more information.

I didn't say that the Catholic church WAS the one world religion of Revelation, however, many things prophecised bare a resemblance. I've gone over a few of them in other posts so I won't repeat myself. But look again at the Vatican pushing for interfaithism post.... I don't see any other dominate religion pushing for it. There is a percentage of all of the nations that have undergone Catholic conversion. Again, Irvin Baxter listed the percentage in his book.

Hmmm, I would like to go back to my old church that some family members of mine still attend, and point out specific things in the bible that are not taught there, as well as show the similarites between the, "black/dark", pope of Catholic prophecy, and the false prophet. It would be quite interesting to hear the priest's opinion.

I also read something interesting
Council of Trent (1545-15630 was a meeting called by Pope John Paul III to address the challenge of the Protestants. It created a very conservative response to the challenge and renewed a conservative Catholic doctrine.



It asserted:



· That the Eucharist was metaphorically and actually (really and physically) the body and blood of Christ.

· That the Saints and their relics existed (Where does God say the authority to declare someone a saint was given to the Vatican? much less, where in the bible are all of these relics? And this ever-growing list of saints mentioned? God gave us one book to follow. He didn't say, "the word of God, plus, these books over here. Peter refers to Christ's followers as saints)

· That celibate Priests were necessary to intercede between God and Man (Correction... If you can pray, you can intercede. All prayer effects Heaven. Not just those who are celibate. For example, my Pastor is married with three children. He has interceded on countless occasions)

· That the authority of the Church – not a minister or the people or the Bible– determined correct faith (The authority of the church determines the correct faith? LOL)

[Jozak]

Epiphany.....sweetheart I admire your time it took to copy and paste your "Stats" but you did not, again, provide a source. Where are the numbers coming from? I am not trying to be an ass, but do you understand how intellectually imperative this is? If you were in college posting this in a paper, you would have gotten a zero ;) Please link me your Council of Trent information as well. Thanks.

[Epiphany]

Epiphany.....sweetheart I admire your time it took to copy and paste your "Stats" but you did not, again, provide a source. Where are the numbers coming from? I am not trying to be an ass, but do you understand how intellectually imperative this is? If you were in college posting this in a paper, you would have gotten a zero ;) Please link me your Council of Trent information as well. Thanks.

Hun, I have written many cited papers in the past. I am aware of how to do so. Had this been a paper, I would have gone to painstaking lengths to note the title, author, page number, and paragraph. However, responding just last night, I didn't really have time to find as many avaliable resources. http://www.eschew.net/archives/000884.php is where those figures were found if you must know. The statements from the Council of Trent were found here http://orion.it.luc.edu/~lmilsk/101/counterreform.htm . But then again, history should provide information as well. What I find interesting is that the word Christian is often used when speaking of Catholics, which can be misleading at times, due to the fact that when describing a religion, merely saying Christian doesn't necessarily mention what religious faction was being spoken of. Being that I have heard my former Priests use the word, "Us Christians", in the past. Last, but certainly not least, you will note the word, "estimated", in front of the percentage. I never said that it was the exact number of deaths, but merely the theoried estimation of what researchers know from history. Yes, there have been religious wars in the past that have not involved the Catholic church, yet, that church is the topic of discussion at the moment. What I find condeming was the remark that persecution was still taking place to this day by the Catholic church. I mentioned the author and book in the previous post who made that statement. His end time bible prophecy is full of citations.

[HippieLngstckng]

I went to nine years of Roman Catholic schooling, just to realize later on that their rules don't always coincide with the bible. One receives forgiveness for their sins through Christ and Christ alone - not some priest - for Christ was our intercessor. We are to pray to G-d and G-d alone, not the saints - when we assume that G-d doesn't have time for us, so we should pray to a saint, we are denying the omnipotence and omnipresence of the L-rd. I'm not trying to be a bible beater or anything, Catholics are good people (my mother is a Catholic, as was I at one time) and they are the most devout of any denomination. But they are also very conservative. Remember, a lot of Catholics are involved in the fight against abortion and gay marriage. Just because we, as Christians, don't believe in these things doesn't mean that we impose our beliefs on another human being. G-d gave us free will, and the ability to exercise it, so should we give others the option to do the same.

Actions speak louder than words! Live by example!

Oh, by the way remember the Inquisition? Lots of folks died in that.
Here's a good source: http://es.rice.edu/ES/humsoc/Galileo/Things/inquisition.html

And remember, NO ONE EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION! (*GRIN*)

P.S. - BTW, many churches have sinned in the process of speading the Word, I love all you Catholics, so if ever anyone tries to put you down and hold the Inquisition over you, remind them about the protestants and the Salem Witch Trials. The loss of life was greater in the Inquisition, but the principle remains the same... Let those of you (and your churches) who have not sinned cast the first stone. Volunteers, anyone? Didn't think so...

P.P.S. - Holy Rollers are scary... My grandma is pentacostal.

[Epiphany]

P.P.S. - Holy Rollers are scary... My grandma is pentacostal.

*Walks up behind you and says, "BOO"*



*Jesus Freak and proud of it*

[LuciferSam]

Actually many of the staunchest atheists I've known came out of Catholic upbringings - my dad's one, he was brought up in a town that was so predominantly Catholic (at the time, it had the largest Catholic percentage of populace) that the Catholic high school was the main high school. From an atheist/agnostic standpoint (I'm an agnostic-humanist myself) I think that a Catholic upbringing can create some pretty interesting and smart individuals, as growing up in such a system that tends to shove dogma on people often gets one's mind to start questioning the norm. I'm not trying to put down Catholicism, but that's been my experience with Catholic people. I only know a few very hardcore Catholics (and damn, they really are hardcore).

[Jozak]

Hun, I have written many cited papers in the past. I am aware of how to do so. Had this been a paper, I would have gone to painstaking lengths to note the title, author, page number, and paragraph. However, responding just last night, I didn't really have time to find as many avaliable resources.
I was half joking, but anyway....

http://www.eschew.net/archives/000884.php is where those figures were found if you must know. The statements from the Council of Trent were found here http://orion.it.luc.edu/~lmilsk/101/counterreform.htm .
THESE ARE NOT RELIABLE WEBSITES!!!! Oh my god......you got PERSONAL WEBPAGES as information 1, from a teacher, and the other one is just some person who has a bird named pecker!!! (See the FAQ's "100 things you didnt know about me!"): That would not even cut it in a simple high school essay as a source. Try again Epiphany....you are the one making these claims, and you still have not substantially backed them up.

But then again, history should provide information as well. What I find interesting is that the word Christian is often used when speaking of Catholics, which can be misleading at times, due to the fact that when describing a religion, merely saying Christian doesn't necessarily mention what religious faction was being spoken of. Being that I have heard my former Priests use the word, "Us Christians", in the past.
How is it misleading? In history books, prior to the 1500's, when it says, "The Church" or "Christian", it is referring to the Roman Catholic Church or Orthodox Churches, because they were the only ones around. So no, if you know history, it's not misleading at all. I am still confused on what you are saying though, possibly that Catholicism is not a Christian religion? Jerry Falwell would be proud to say the least.

Last, but certainly not least, you will note the word, "estimated", in front of the percentage. I never said that it was the exact number of deaths, but merely the theoried estimation of what researchers know from history.
You obviously thought they were accurate enough to post them as facts, didn't you? More importantly, it's scary you use personal webpages to cite facts for a historical discussion. If I want a fact about Bill Clinton, would I go to Anne Coulter's website? No, of course not, unless she cited information from another place that was reliable, which by the way, niether of yours did that either.

Yes, there have been religious wars in the past that have not involved the Catholic church, yet, that church is the topic of discussion at the moment.
PLENTY of wars have involved other churches and religions.

Well, it was the topic of discussion but it's sort of dead at the moment, becasue you cannot provide a true source for your outlandish claims and data.


What I find condeming was the remark that persecution was still taking place to this day by the Catholic church. I mentioned the author and book in the previous post who made that statement. His end time bible prophecy is full of citations.
Yes, the Catholic Church, the big bully, is still persecuting people today. Get real. If his end prophecy citations are like the sites you posted above, then it just proves you can do anything in America, even be considered an "author." You could, actually, cite various things from the book, give us the source, and we could verify it, but I suppose that won't be happening? Look, it's ALOT of work to look up facts and research things, I know, trust me, but you cannot make claims and then when challenged, give sites you listed above as proof, it doesn't work in the real world.

[Jozak]

I went to nine years of Roman Catholic schooling, just to realize later on that their rules don't always coincide with the bible.
That is your opinion, I happen to think otherwise.


One receives forgiveness for their sins through Christ and Christ alone - not some priest - for Christ was our intercessor.
My my, we have forgotten basic Catholic teaching haven't we? I beleive Christ himself commissioned the apostoles to forgive people IN HIS NAME, not that actual humans were the ones absolving sins.

We are to pray to G-d and G-d alone, not the saints - when we assume that G-d doesn't have time for us, so we should pray to a saint, we are denying the omnipotence and omnipresence of the L-rd.
Why are leaving out all of the "O"s? At any rate, that is not why we pray to saints, becasue we feel god does not have time for us, where on earth did you get that idea? We pray to saints ASKING them to pray for us. If I can pray for you, then the Holy Mother or St. Augustine, who are alive in heaven, should be able to as well. It's not denying anything to the Lord, it is merely asking people to pray for us.

I'm not trying to be a bible beater or anything, Catholics are good people (my mother is a Catholic, as was I at one time) and they are the most devout of any denomination.
Well, you are being a bible beater. But unfortunently for you, there are instances in the bible that back both of those teachings up. The other story is where Peter asks the saints to pray for him while he has golden bowles or somthing (I forgot the story exactly, I'll look it up)

But they are also very conservative. Remember, a lot of Catholics are involved in the fight against abortion and gay marriage. Just because we, as Christians, don't believe in these things doesn't mean that we impose our beliefs on another human being. G-d gave us free will, and the ability to exercise it, so should we give others the option to do the same.
So? I'm against abortion, becasue I don't think anyone has a legal right to kill an innocent human life. I support Gay marrige too, but let's not turn this into an abortion thread, please for the love of god. :P


Actions speak louder than words! Live by example!
Exactly why I don't buy into Luther's Justification by Faith alone, you need to live your life as Christ would, "Good works" so to speak, although I think that term is misused by Protestants a lot of the time.

I won't even go into the Inquistion, me and Epiphany are battleing that out on another thread if anyone wants to read it.

P.P.S. - Holy Rollers are scary... My grandma is pentacostal.
I'm sorry to hear that....and I am not being sarcastic.

[Jozak]

Actually many of the staunchest atheists I've known came out of Catholic upbringings - my dad's one, he was brought up in a town that was so predominantly Catholic (at the time, it had the largest Catholic percentage of populace) that the Catholic high school was the main high school. From an atheist/agnostic standpoint (I'm an agnostic-humanist myself) I think that a Catholic upbringing can create some pretty interesting and smart individuals, as growing up in such a system that tends to shove dogma on people often gets one's mind to start questioning the norm. I'm not trying to put down Catholicism, but that's been my experience with Catholic people. I only know a few very hardcore Catholics (and damn, they really are hardcore).
I think that can happen in every religion, not just Catholicism. There are more Catholics on the planet than Protestants, so you hear about it more often.

Do you think I'm a hardcore Catholic? :sunglasse

[Epiphany]

My my, we have forgotten basic Catholic teaching haven't we? I beleive Christ himself commissioned the apostoles to forgive people IN HIS NAME, not that actual humans were the ones absolving sins.If you know that your suppose to do things in HIS name, why doesn't the church baptize in his name? Interestingly enough, All four gospel writers mention, "baptism in his name"... But I forget that the Catholic church clings to the one scripture that says in the name of the father, the son, and the holy ghost.... But, the thing is, He died for our sins. He is our salvation. Salvation comes through his name. Jesus told us to do everything through his name... hence, why every example in the bible of someone being baptized, was baptized in his name.




Exactly why I don't buy into Luther's Justification by Faith alone, you need to live your life as Christ would, "Good works" so to speak, although I think that term is misused by Protestants a lot of the time.Yes, but there is only one scriptural plan of salvation (John 3:5). Baptism in his name, and the infilling of the holy spirit. So, you can do as many good works as you want, but unless you follow the plan, then your not saved. Good works should come naturally if one is a believer, but Jesus clearly says that you cannot see the kingdom of Heaven unless you are saved, and I have stated his exact words on that many, many times. Read the parable of The Wedding Banquet in Matthew 22. When we are baptized in Jesus name, we are covered in his blood. The blood cleanses us. We are covered by grace. A white robe if you may. Notice in this parable that some of those who attend are asked where their clothing is. Baptism that is not in Jesus's name is not covered by his blood. The Catholic church baptizes in titles. A true church of Christ baptizes in the name of Christ because they know that he is our salvation.

As far as the sites I have cited, nothing else seems to have any percentages given on the figures of those who have been persecuted. Other sites talked about it, but none have given me any figures whatsoever. Sadly enough, I don't think I have read anything in history that has even begun to estimate the number of those who have died. Then again, I don't think that the writer from the site just pulled these numbers out of the air, so I suppose you could ask him where his citations are. However, I keep telling you that when Irvin Baxtor stated the number of 68 million, he said... ESTIMATED! He never said that was the exact number, so it doesn't really matter what sites I give you.


As far as the Catholic church persecuting others to this day.... I suppose neither of us will really know what goes on behind closed doors in other parts of this country. Irvin Baxtor was very good in his citations in his book. Sorry, I don't own it or else I would post every single citation he has given. I don't trust any rule that was made by a man claiming to be holy, but then added his own laws. Personally, I don't believe that anyone who is not filled with the holy ghost (and again we know by God's word the evidence of this is speaking in tongues) should be allowed to teach the word of God. The holy ghost is the counselor, teacher, guide. Someone who isn't filled really has no right to try to guide someone else in the word of the Lord. According the Jesus's plan of salvation, the pope isn't even saved. That's sad that someone who isn't on the right path can teach someone else.


I'm still interested in this power that you claim Mary posses. A close friend of my boyfriend happens to be a nun. Interestingly enough, she is filled with the holy ghost and speaks fluently in tongues. It may be a while before he has a chance to ask her, so I would like you to show me in the Bible where Mary's power is used. Not in cathecism, but in the Bible. Just to take another step further, I shall see if my grandmother can inquire about this in the Priest's exact words on Sunday.

"Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death"....

Yes... she is full of grace. God's grace is given to his believers, that doesn't make her powerful. Holy, yes, she is holy. Come to my church, I shall show you several other holy people. She was looked upon by God to bare Christ in the flesh. Elizabeth was looked upon by God to bare John the Baptist. Does Elizabeth have power? nope! So, blessed and holy.... Did she cast out demons in Jesus's name as his apostles did? nope. Did she perform any miracles as the apostles did in the name of Jesus? nope! Through the holy ghost, she bore Jesus Christ. She certainly didn't do that on her own. It's called a miracle. True believers have miracles happen in their lives. Heck, unbelievers have miracles happen in their lives as well. Do they have power? nope! So again, please, please give me a verse in the Bible that says that Mary had a power.

It's interesting that you are against abortion, but for gay marriage. Why do people who say they are religious pick and chose things out of the bible to follow? I myself am against abortion as well. I am also against gay marriages. I don't have a problem with someone being homosexual because I know that as a believer of Christ, I must love the sinner, but hate the sin. However, I don't really see how you can support something that God teaches against in his word, and claim to be a follower. If you don't believe in all of the teachings, what's the point in just believing in a few?



Wow, I thank God every day for bringing me to truth every day.

[HippieLngstckng]

*Walks up behind you and says, "BOO"*



*Jesus Freak and proud of it*
LOL! I was kind of joking, buuut...

I'm not knocking you, really. I love my grandma, and she is a wonderful lady.
Her church services freak me out... Pentacostal isn't for everyone, but interestingly I got saved in her Pentacostal church during the sermon.

[HippieLngstckng]

My my, we have forgotten basic Catholic teaching haven't we? I beleive Christ himself commissioned the apostoles to forgive people IN HIS NAME, not that actual humans were the ones absolving sins.


Why are leaving out all of the "O"s? At any rate, that is not why we pray to saints, becasue we feel god does not have time for us, where on earth did you get that idea? We pray to saints ASKING them to pray for us. If I can pray for you, then the Holy Mother or St. Augustine, who are alive in heaven, should be able to as well. It's not denying anything to the Lord, it is merely asking people to pray for us.


Well, you are being a bible beater. But unfortunently for you, there are instances in the bible that back both of those teachings up. The other story is where Peter asks the saints to pray for him while he has golden bowles or somthing (I forgot the story exactly, I'll look it up)


So? I'm against abortion, becasue I don't think anyone has a legal right to kill an innocent human life. I support Gay marrige too, but let's not turn this into an abortion thread, please for the love of god. :P


Exactly why I don't buy into Luther's Justification by Faith alone, you need to live your life as Christ would, "Good works" so to speak, although I think that term is misused by Protestants a lot of the time.

I won't even go into the Inquistion, me and Epiphany are battleing that out on another thread if anyone wants to read it.


I'm sorry to hear that....and I am not being sarcastic.My, my, youself, my friend... no I haven't forgotten basic Catholic teachings. I'm telling you that G-d is the only one who can forgive your sins, Christ is your intercessor, and no one gets to the Father, except through him. You don't NEED a priest to absolve your sins, just as you don't NEED a saint to pray for you, you need to pray to G-d and have a personal relationship with Christ... (I don't include vowels when writing the names of the L-rd because I am a Messanic Jew, and we believe that is close to idolatry to write the name of G-d in vain... Thanks for asking! :p )

Well, since the BIBLE is what our religions are based on, it only helps to know what it says. The Catholic church draws some of its canon laws off of things that aren't even bible based... And we are supposed to pray for others, of course. When did I ever say we shouldn't?

You have no right to impose your will on others, but that's just how I feel. You can't prevent people from doing the wrong thing, and you certainly shouldn't criminalize it. They'll know the truth eventually (most people who follow through with abortion end up regretting it, or having serious feelings of remorse). But that's my opinion, which is what I thought we were supposed to be sharing.

You can-NOT get into heaven by "good works" alone, which is what a lot of Catholics believe.... For G-d so loved the world, He gave His only begotten son, whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. This is John 3:16, and I may not be quoting it EXACTLY, but I think I am. But this is the gist of Christianity as a whole... We are saved by our faith.

And, why on Earth are you taking this as a personal attack? You could stand to be a little less sarcastic in your post, someone might think you were a creep or something... ;)

BTW, don't be sorry my grandmother is a Pentacostal, she has a heart of gold.

[Epiphany]

LOL! I was kind of joking, buuut...

I'm not knocking you, really. I love my grandma, and she is a wonderful lady.
Her church services freak me out... Pentacostal isn't for everyone, but interestingly I got saved in her Pentacostal church during the sermon.

I was joking as well. I know what you mean. I wasn't freaked out the first time I went just because it was exactly what I was looking for. I call it my hippie church. Drums, dancing, singing... It's great. My family refuses to go because it scares them as well. Not many churches teach about how they use to dance and sing in the old testament so people are frightened by the aspect of it. It's great to hear about your salvation there though :)

[HippieLngstckng]

I was joking as well. I know what you mean. I wasn't freaked out the first time I went just because it was exactly what I was looking for. I call it my hippie church. Drums, dancing, singing... It's great. My family refuses to go because it scares them as well. Not many churches teach about how they use to dance and sing in the old testament so people are frightened by the aspect of it. It's great to hear about your salvation there though :)
Thanks! I still go to that pentacostal church with my grandma, sometimes...
I *LOVE* everything about it (dancing, singing, drums!), except for the speaking in tongues, which I just find strange, and when the whole church has a "holy ghost" service, I can't lie, I usually leave. Maybe I just don't understand...;)

[Epiphany]

The only thing that bothers me about my church speaking in tongues is that I don't do it as often as I should. It's just hard for me to make that connection. Some people can go right into it, but I can't. I have to concentrate and I always seem to get distracted. At times I feel as if everyone else is holier than I am. I have to admit though, being filled with the holy ghost and speaking in tongues for the first time was the most amazing feeling ever next to being baptized. It's cool to hear that you love the Pentecostal church though! *hugs*

[Jozak]

My, my, youself, my friend... no I haven't forgotten basic Catholic teachings. I'm telling you that G-d is the only one who can forgive your sins, Christ is your intercessor, and no one gets to the Father, except through him. I don't think any Catholic will dispute that. Perhaps when we say Mary or the Saints as intercedeing for us, but that simply means praying for us on our behalf.


You don't NEED a priest to absolve your sins, just as you don't NEED a saint to pray for you, you need to pray to G-d and have a personal relationship with Christ...I disagree, well sort of. My parents brought me up to beleive you could go to God without going to a priest, however, I respect the Church's teaching about confession, and I think that is the right way to do it, when you can. It's hard to go to confession on a regular routine. Christ clearly commissioned the apostoles to forgive others in his name. Again, this is a scriptural interpretation we disagree on.

(I don't include vowels when writing the names of the L-rd because I am a Messanic Jew, and we believe that is close to idolatry to write the name of G-d in vain... Thanks for asking! http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif )Not trying to disrespect you at all, was just curious, on a lighter note,...this Baptist Girl i know capitalizes CHRIST in words like "CHRISTmas" and her name, "CHRISTina"

Well, since the BIBLE is what our religions are based on, it only helps to know what it says. The Catholic church draws some of its canon laws off of things that aren't even bible based... And we are supposed to pray for others, of course. When did I ever say we shouldn't? No, Catholic doctrine is based on the bible AND Tradition....from the early church fathers. Well, I figured since you were not Catholic, you did not think it was appropriate for us to ask the Virgin Mary and Saints to pray for us, most Protestants don't.

You have no right to impose your will on others, but that's just how I feel. You can't prevent people from doing the wrong thing, and you certainly shouldn't criminalize it. They'll know the truth eventually (most people who follow through with abortion end up regretting it, or having serious feelings of remorse). But that's my opinion, which is what I thought we were supposed to be sharing. Are we talking about abortion? I forgot...seriously......at any rate, I don't think you have the right to slaughter your unborn baby (except for the rare instances, rape, danger of mother etc)..it's still a human life from the moment of conception, medical fact.

You can-NOT get into heaven by "good works" alone, which is what a lot of Catholics believe.... For G-d so loved the world, He gave His only begotten son, whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. This is John 3:16, and I may not be quoting it EXACTLY, but I think I am. But this is the gist of Christianity as a whole... We are saved by our faith.And you cannot get into heaven by "FAITH" alone, that is bullshit. You cannot sit there on your butt and do nothing and say or beleive you have faith, and automatically go to heaven. No other Catholic, including myself, my family, friends, has EVER been taught by good works alone would get you into heaven. I think it is equally dangerous to just say the magic word, "FAITH", and know 100% sure you're going to heaven, that is quite arrogant, IMO. My dad explained it well, even to a lot of our Protestant family friends, Faith through Good works, and vice versa. You would probably see it as Good works through faith, which is essentially the same thing!

And, why on Earth are you taking this as a personal attack? You could stand to be a little less sarcastic in your post, someone might think you were a creep or something... http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif Sorry, I am a sarcastic person. I won't change for you.

BTW, don't be sorry my grandmother is a Pentacostal, she has a heart of gold.Oh I was half joking, I'm sure she does. I just think a lot of them are loonie, but I'd hate to hear what she thinks of Roman Catholicshttp://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[metro]

what would it be like? Hell. .....

[Epiphany]

And you cannot get into heaven by "FAITH" alone, that is bullshit. You cannot sit there on your butt and do nothing and say or beleive you have faith, and automatically go to heaven. No other Catholic, including myself, my family, friends, has EVER been taught by good works alone would get you into heaven. I think it is equally dangerous to just say the magic word, "FAITH", and know 100% sure you're going to heaven, that is quite arrogant, IMO. My dad explained it well, even to a lot of our Protestant family friends, Faith through Good works, and vice versa. You would probably see it as Good works through faith, which is essentially the same thing!

But in the same way you cannot say, "I have faith, and I give to the poor, I am going to Heaven." .... Heaven takes hard work. No, you do not get there simply by faith (the Bible says that), but you do not get there by simply doing good works either (the Bible says that also) "Many are chosen, but few will enter". Getting into Heaven requires discipline, structure, truth, and taking up your cross daily. Not just faith, nor good works, nor even a combination of both. God knows your heart and how honest and sincere you are in your love of Him. I can have faith, I can do good deeds, but what if I am bitter and angry all the time?

I just think a lot of them are loonie, but I'd hate to hear what she thinks of Roman Catholicshttp://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif
I am Pentecostal and I have felt this way about the Catholic church for years. As I recall, it was attending the Christian school/church that opened my eyes for the first time. The truth about baptism, the holy spirit, etc. It paved the way in learning that what the Catholic church had taught me was only half truth mixed in with man made rules. I would personally rather have the whole truth. As I have said, I was raised Catholic, my entire family is Catholic. I don't have a problem with them, but I have a problem with the fact that they believe they are going to make it to Heaven when they are not saved according to how the Bible tells us. I find that sad. That is all I have to say for now. I am still waiting for your response to my last post.

[Chodpa]

Many writers in this thread have gotten a bit off track. I am really curious if people, even those of different Christian cults, think that an all pervasive belief in Christ would make the world a better place, and if so, then why?

[peace_sells]

hey I've only got upto page 2 of reading this and now I'm bored but my gut feeling is breeding EVILLLLL... keep up the good work (y) make satan proud :) hey there's already been an evil pope by the way - have you guys not seen little nicky? when adrian turned into the pope? or was it cassius? i can't remember. That's such a great film.

oops sorry just remembered i dont think he was the pope, just a priest of some sort, My bad. Guess there's still one to come. :)

[West Point]

how can u say something like that? the catholic church is the only christian church that stands for shit the rest of them just detereorate as time goes on
Oh really? Ever heard of the mormon church? I can assure that they are growing much faster than the catholic church.

[HippieLngstckng]

Oh really? Ever heard of the mormon church? I can assure that they are growing much faster than the catholic church.Oh yeah, that guy who told everyone that he met "Christ" in America and wrote a whole other "bible" even though Revelations says he who adds or detracts from the One Holy Word shall be cursed?

The church that doesn't believe in drinking or smoking, but owns tobacco companies? The church that believed in polygamy up until several years back (oh, a change in church policy, by the way)? PUH-LEASE do not get me started on the mormons.

I don't think any Catholic will dispute that. Perhaps when we say Mary or the Saints as intercedeing for us, but that simply means praying for us on our behalf

No, Catholic doctrine is based on the bible AND Tradition....from the early church fathers. Well, I figured since you were not Catholic, you did not think it was appropriate for us to ask the Virgin Mary and Saints to pray for us, most Protestants don't.

And you cannot get into heaven by "FAITH" alone, that is bullshit. You cannot sit there on your butt and do nothing and say or beleive you have faith, and automatically go to heaven. No other Catholic, including myself, my family, friends, has EVER been taught by good works alone would get you into heaven. I think it is equally dangerous to just say the magic word, "FAITH", and know 100% sure you're going to heaven, that is quite arrogant, IMO. My dad explained it well, even to a lot of our Protestant family friends, Faith through Good works, and vice versa. You would probably see it as Good works through faith, which is essentially the same thing!

Sorry, I am a sarcastic person. I won't change for you.
Well, I'm not trying to be mean, but if you wish to waste your precious time praying to dead people who have no power to do anything for you when you could be communing with the Living G-d, that's up to you. But remember your relationship with our L-rd is what is important, not your relationship with Peter, Paul, and Mary (a little joke there, sorry :p )

I said earlier, I was raised in a Catholic household, and went to Catholic school ALL MY LIFE. But actually, the very earliest of church fathers in history were of JEWISH heritage. The very first church that functioned in secrecy were mostly converted Jews who spead the word, having to live in fear of being exposed, and still kept most of the doctrines of Judeic tradition (like the sacred Holidays, Sukkoth, Passover, etc.). Only when the Roman Emperor Constantine the Great got saved did Christianity become acceptable (it became the religion of the Roman Empire). Thus, the Church came under the control of the pagan Romans, and to broaden the appeal to pagan households, they adopted some of the pagan traditions. Therefore, Catholicism is NOT the oldest or truest form of Christianity, although it is the most resiliant. Before you ask me for a link on Constantine's life, I will beat you to the punch... :)

http://www.roman-emperors.org/conniei.htm

And, my friend, if you have faith in Him, if you love Christ, then you would choose to follow His commandments. Having faith is active, not passive. If you have faith, you will align your life with His and Live according to His will, to the best of your ability. I never said you didn't have to demonstrate your faith through your actions... Again, actions speak louder than words.

Who's asking you to change? I just wanted a little respect and not so much attitude. After all, this is a discussion, not an attack.

[SageDreamer]

The world would be a lot more like some parts of Europe and Latin America where there aren't many Protestants and Orthodox Christians. I don't think the whole world will ever be Catholic or any one church or religious belief.

[Jozak]

Oh really? Ever heard of the mormon church? I can assure that they are growing much faster than the catholic church.
The Mormon Church is the fastest growing church in the United States, I can assure you The Catholic Church and other Protestant denominations are growing a TON faster in Africa. Most Catholics on the planet now are IN Africa and South America.

[AT98BooBoo]

Look at the economic conditions of countries where the Catholic Church is(or was) dominant and look at countries where Protestantism is ( or was) dominant. Need I say more? BTW: The Catholic Church of Spain was one of Franco's biggest backers in the Spanish Civil War.


BTW: The Ethiopian Orthodox Church (aka Coptic Church) is the oldest denomination in the world. Christianity has been practiced in Africa since shortly after the time of Christ.

[Jozak]

Look at the economic conditions of countries where the Catholic Church is(or was) dominant and look at countries where Protestantism is ( or was) dominant. Need I say more?
Yes....France, Italy, Spain, Canada, The Netharlands, Luxeumburg, and Austria are so poor right? Germany is about a 50/50 split between Catholic and Protestant, so I am not sure what nations you are referring to about Protestant nations being so much richer than Catholic ones. South America is poor, but so are a lot of other places. Look at the United States, Appalachia is probably the poorest area in the country and those people are overwhelmingly Protestant. Just becasue someone is a religion


BTW: The Catholic Church of Spain was one of Franco's biggest backers in the Spanish Civil War.
Go back and read your history books. The Catholic Church supported him at first but then stopped backing him, and even critisized him and the regime in Spain.

BTW: The Ethiopian Orthodox Church (aka Coptic Church) is the oldest denomination in the world. Christianity has been practiced in Africa since shortly after the time of Christ.
No, that's not accurate. It was practiced in DOZENS of places, but for the first 250 years it was a martyr's church. When it become tolearted as a result of the edict of Milan, The Bishop of Rome and it's city were recognized as the central unifiying seat for the Church in the West, while Constantinople was recognized as the seat in the East. The first pope (If you beleive Peter WAS NOT the first one) was elected in the 3rd century, however, since I am Catholic, I beleive St. Peter was the first pope.

[HippieLngstckng]

BTW: The Ethiopian Orthodox Church (aka Coptic Church) is the oldest denomination in the world. Christianity has been practiced in Africa since shortly after the time of Christ.Actually, no, sweetie, the disciples had to bring the Good News to the Africans... You know, those Jewish guys who hung out with Christ? The Converts were not organized as they are now, they communicated mostly through letters (letters from Paul to the Corinthians, etc. etc.). Christianity has been practiced since the disciples went into hiding after the crucifixion, until Pentacost, when the Tongues of Fire decended upon their heads and they were instructed to spread the gospel. This happened a mere fifty days after the Crucifixion (and some argue the beginning of the actual church is when Peter was ordained to be Christ's "rock", one of the reasons I do appreciate the Catholic Church, b/c their first pope was a jew!). The church you speak of may be the oldest recorded ORGANIZED denomination, perhaps you have a link for me? But the Messanic Jewish beginnings and history are clearly recorded in the book itself. I do not need to provide a link, just open the book, it's right there, Acts of the Apostles and thereafter :)