Vatican convenes summit to fight the "threat" of alternative faiths! [Archive]

queenannie

06-18-2004, 07:52 PM

I do not have anything against anyone who feels loyal to the Church of Rome, or any other institution, for that matter. I, myself, am a "Buddhist Jesus Freak". The institution we call religion is another branch of politics, and the Vatican is the biggest political entity in the world. I have no doubt that the "Whore of Babylon" in revelations is none other than the Church of Rome, and the Pope is the major false prophet of the Piscean Age.

Jesus was an individualist, and that's the message he brought, in code, for those who truly seek the Way. He was an Essene, which would have been regarded as a "cult" today. The way of the Church of Rome is capitalism and control over the citizenry by way of religious oppression. Read about Constantine and the first Pope John, way back 300 years after the crucifixion. The bible was bastardized from the beginning, and filtered for what would be most helpful to the ruler of a vast and increasing Roman Empire. The roman empire didn't fall, it just moved to the Vatican and became world wide as the "Church".

Reincarnation is a fact, and was taken out of the bible. The bible is not a literal document. It has far less value taken piece by piece, analyzed, and "interpreted" for the common man. It is a divine teaching document, meant as a whole, for the earnest and open minded to use as a guide to this Age, in order to be a part of the next "Exodus". The underlying theme of the N.T. is brotherly love and unity, in Christ. Not conversion, not crusading, not capitalism, not "fear of God." Most don't even realize that there are 2 "Gods" in the bible. The god of the Jews, and of the common widely acknowledged churches of today, is no longer in office. His name is Jehovah Saboath, his name means war, and he was replaced by the next elect, Jesus Christ, whose father is the (supreme being) which is perfect, the Alpha and the Omega, and the source for all things that exist. Jehovah is the regent of the moon, he reflects light. The (supreme being) is light. Alchemy is the chemistry of the (supreme being), al- or el- meaning God. Quantum physics is today's "alchemy". Base metal into gold was a front to escape being labeled a heretic by the venerable and infallible Church, yet still so many died for being a true follower of Christ. Christian no longer means "christ like" in practice.

Religious tolerance (enlightenment) is a direct manifestation of light and love, and religion is at the opposite end of the spectrum, a manifestation of darkness and selfishness (egotism). So much bloodshed for religion, none for enlightenment.

So many people led astray, believing they are "saved."

Hope I didn't offend anyone. I hope if I did, it was enough to spur you to investigation on your own, so you can prove me "wrong", and find what's right for yourself.

Sebbi

06-18-2004, 09:51 PM

Whatever makes you happy.

There are many paths and they all have the same destination. Buddhism going by most Buddhists interpretation is "no more and no less than a search for liberation" (Robert Allen said) "If I meet someone on my path and one of us helps the other, we are both Buddhists, even if one of us happens to be wearing a yamulke or cross round his neck."

Blessings

Sebbi

SvgGrdnBeauty

06-19-2004, 02:54 AM

It's things like that article that make my want look at the leaders of my church and scream, "its all the same! Can't you see that!!" I chant "hare krishna" and then I thank the Lord for blessings and pray to Lord Jesus...does that make me a horrid Christian? I'm trying to get closer to the Lord, to find the inner light, but I'm still a Christian (even though all religions are essentially the same), does that make me wrong? Excuse me for loving God. Why does it matter if I walk in to my church sing my hymns, then return home and chant rounds on beads (I am going to get some...I always loose count)...the more I learn the more that I see we are essentially the same. Its feelings like those of our wonderful papal leader that turn me off of organized religion. Why can't the world except that we are all God's children. The thinking that is displayed in that article starts wars, has and will, why? Because we think that what our culture calls Him is better sounding than what yours does...and what if some don't believe in Him at all...it is true some don't...holding them down and telling them that your way is the right way is not going to change their beliefs...religion cannot be political...it must be something you feel. Seriously...this is the thing that annoys me about the world sometimes...so close-minded is a majority of the human race....guess what all? We are essentially all the same! No one's better than anyone else. Shocking thought, eh?

...ok...done venting....sorry there...

FreakyJoeMan

06-19-2004, 03:13 AM

In every institution's life, it's goal becomes not the original goal, but becomes the preservation, and continuation of that institution.

This is true for all institutions, buisnesses, schools, even religions. At a point in all these institutions, the goal stops being making products, teaching children, giving spiritual enlightenment, and becomes one of greasing the wheels, keeping the engine going, trying not to stagnate.

And this is the point in which an instituiton becomes corrupt. When a buisnesses' goal is not to make a good product, but to make more money, it becomes corrupted. When a school's goal is not to teach children, but to keep funds flowing in, it is corrupted. When a religion's goal is not to show the Way, but to get the highest demographic, it becomes corrupted.

The Catholic Church is corrupted. It is not concerned about the Way, it is concerned about the amount of Catholics per population. Think about it; non-involvement in the Holocause: fewer competitors. A total ban on birth control: more and more Catholics.

Just fucking greasing the wheels, keeping the cogs turning in a machine long overdue for the junkyard.

FreakyJoeMan

06-19-2004, 03:23 AM

Oooooo! My first rant in a while! How'd ya like it?

Epiphany

06-19-2004, 06:42 AM

Ah the Catholic church does not give up on it's quest to be a one world dominating religion

queenannie

06-19-2004, 11:38 AM

Excellent Rant, FreakyJoeMan!!

The big underlying message in this obvious threat which the Church of Rome seems to be losing sleep over, is that this "New Age" stuff is valid. They're proving its substance by voicing such concern, especially when you consider that they have a vast amount of occult and esoteric knowledge which they are well aware of being factual. They do not subscribe to that knowledge in any useful sense for their own souls or those of their misled parishoners, but they know it to be true. They know it is powerful, way more than they, and they know it is geniune, since they got it when it was fresh out of the oven, so to speak. And it scares the holy be-jesus out of them!! Other evidence to this fact are the inquisition, all of the crusades, just to name the bloodiest.

The difference between the orthodox brand of "Christianity" and the true type of spiritual advancement toward emulating Jesus Christ, is there are two different "Gods" being worshipped, one of lower rank, who thrives and relishes war, and one of supreme rank, who sent his son, and who thrives only on love and unity.

The warring one seems to be easier to work for, but it goes against my nature so I became an "eclectic", and I choose to love my planet-mates, even the pope (although I think he is headed for the heat and darkness)

geckopelli

06-19-2004, 03:18 PM

"The big underlying message in this obvious threat which the Church of Rome seems to be losing sleep over, is that this "New Age" stuff is valid"

A simpiler explanation is that since people are naive enough to buy thier BS, the church is well aware that they may listen to other BS, too.

sweatininthesouth

06-19-2004, 04:32 PM

Ellis, the article you posted stunned me.

I searched a little deeper and came up with more of the actual article, which shows how concerned the Vatican really is about Catholics/Christians who are becoming more and more disillusioned about their faith, thereby, turning to alternative religions for more answers to "the meaning of life" and how we are all connected.....questions I think we all have about our own existence.

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/story.jsp?story=531952

Sounds like a modern day "inquisition" I hope it never comes to this again. Maybe it won't in our lifetime, but it sounds almost like the Vatican is trying to lay the groundwork for something in the future. God help us all....

queenannie

06-19-2004, 04:50 PM

Wow, that article is damn near scary! What's worse, is they don't even see the obvious hypocrisy in their own words. Are they that arrogant? Do they think anyone is that stupid? Do they actually believe they are following Christ?!?!?! Just the presence of king capitalism in the vatican means they're serving another master.

The crazy part is, I keep wondering how they expect me to believe that the Pope still enunciates coherent sentences!?!?! I haven't seen him awake and alert for a couple of years now. I guess he only speaks when there are no cameras around!

queenannie

06-20-2004, 06:41 AM

These were pointed out to me as "proof" from the Church of Rome, that the Church of Rome is not the Whore of Babylon in Revelations. Still yet even scarier, the way this institution's thinking policy operates.

http://www.catholic.com/library/hunting_the_whore_of_babylon.asp
http://www.catholic.com/library/whore_of_babylon.asp

POPthree13

06-21-2004, 04:41 PM

You know I never read Hunt's book which drew parrallels between the Holy Roman Catholic Church and the whore of babylon. I just came to those conclusions on my own, which began after I read about being draped in Scarlet and Purple which are used throughout the religion. I'll have to look into the book!

queenannie

06-21-2004, 08:44 PM

I came to my conclusion in the same way. I have been cracking the code of revelations for years. Only lately have I been making headway (when I learned to read the bible un-literally).

I have been debating about the whore of babylon thing with a catholic on another forum. He keeps giving me links to his rebuttals, but they are all written by the Church, and none points to any scripture, and they go round and round. I almost laugh. How can I take a valid defense from the defendant themself, so obviously practiced in preventative damage control!

KingDavid

06-21-2004, 09:22 PM

What exactly does it mean to read the bible unliterally? There are things that are in the bible that are figurative (Jesus said I am the door, the vine ...) Ok so jesus is not exactly a big rectangular piece of wood that we open to get in or out of a place, and he is not a long piece of plant matter that likes to climb fences. Is this what you are talking about or are you speaking of something deeper. Sometimes I read the old testament and the prophets and Literaly I can hear them speaking of nations and peoples of the anchient time but it strikes me in a more personal way. The words speak directly to me about spiritual realities that exist now. The scripture speaks of things such as "Jacob my servant" and though I know he had a servant named Jacob I feel he is speaking of me. Yes sometimes the scriptures become very personal to me in a way that is hard to describe. All the things that are spoken of anchient people and times speak of me and these times. But they change One section of scripture will seem like bad news at one time and good news at another.

I wonder if you read the scriptures the same way? Do you ever feel like the bible was written to you spicifically?

Isa 54:1 Sing, O barren, thou [that] didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou [that] didst not travail with child: for more [are] the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.

Isa 54:2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;

Isa 54:3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.

Isa 54:4 Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.

Isa 54:5 For thy Maker [is] thine husband; the LORD of hosts [is] his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

Isa 54:6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.

Isa 54:7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.

Isa 54:8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.

Isa 54:9 For this [is as] the waters of Noah unto me: for [as] I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.

Isa 54:10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee.

Isa 54:11 O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, [and] not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires.

Isa 54:12 And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones.

Isa 54:13 And all thy children [shall be] taught of the LORD; and great [shall be] the peace of thy children.

Isa 54:14 In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.

Isa 54:15 Behold, they shall surely gather together, [but] not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake.

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

Isa 54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue [that] shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This [is] the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness [is] of me, saith the LORD.

POPthree13

06-21-2004, 09:55 PM

Unliterally = NOT literally. LOL

Much of the bible (including creation in genesis and revalation in my opinion) are just parables. Enbedded in them is information, but they are not meant to be taken literally. ie: A seven headed monster is not going to come and eat us up.

Jozak

06-22-2004, 03:09 AM

Epiphany

06-22-2004, 07:00 AM

Every time I read these anti Catholic threads I get two main feelings. My first one is of course, anger, anger about the ignorance and stupidity. But then it sort of turns into a comedic situation for me, when people start spouting off all of this misinformation about the Catholic Church. It's pathetic.
Then you don't see the resemblance betwee one world religion that will be imposed during the reign of the antichrist, and the pushing of interfaithism of the Catholic church?

Hmm, I don't see how I can be misinformed when I attended a Catholic church and it's school for years. I've read all of the stories about limbo, and hail marys and other things inbedded in the catholic religion that hardly pertain to the bible. For example, I am amused how the idea of limbo was actually taught to me in grade school when Emperor Constantine admitted that this spiritual waiting place between Heaven and Hell was created to get more money out of church members.

I am amused how God requires ten percent tithings and the Catholic church demands twenty percent from it's members. God's word commands the ten percent, and anything else given is to be of ones own personal offering. It's sad when the church has to pass around a collection plate twice.

I also find it amusing that the pope gets to pick and choose those for , "sainthood". Obviously, a "saint", is a human. God's first commandment says, "Thou shall have no other God's". Praying to saints is a waste of breath. You cannot come to God through ANY other way but through the name of of Jesus. Not saint David, or saint so and so. As I have said before, same with Mary. Does a saint have the power of forgiveness? Did Mary die on the cross. No, Jesus did, so when you pray, so why would you pray to anyone else?

As far as confession, Jesus did not say talk to an old guy in a robe about your sin. He said confess them to the father, that you may be forgiven. Forgiveness comes through prayer and sorrow, and determination not to continue the sin, not tossing out a few Hail Marys and Our Fathers. Has the catholic church not read the verse on vain repetition? Our Father is actually a guideline for prayer. Thanking God, praising him, blessing the food, asking for forgiveness for our sins against him and others, asking that his will be done in our lives, and asking for strength against temptation. He didn't say for us to repeat the same words over and over.

The Catholic church believes that Jesus is coming back. That is great, he is, but do they teach their members what to expect? What to look for? No... It wasn't until I began to attend a Christian school that I even knew what the mark of the beast was. Infact, the church didn't even recommend that we bring our Bibles, or read them during chatecism. That is interesting. We weren't going over verses and explaining their meaning, we were just going over these man made rules in the Catholic faith. A church of God should ALWAYS want you to bring your bible and read along.

Acts 2:38 says, "Repent and be baptized and you shall be filled with the holy spirit". hmmm, when I was an infant, what concept did I have of repentance? NONE! My parents can't repent for me, I am the only one who can repent. What examples do we have of babies repenting and being baptized in the Bible? There are none, because every single example of someone being baptized in the bible shows that they were submerged completely in water after repentance, in the name of Jesus. I mean sure, it's convenient to sprinkle a bit of water on a baby's head, but since when does convenience get you to the kingdom of Heaven?

Several verses cover the infilling of the holy spirit (spirit of God) and how it happens. God said that his people would speak with new tongues. The Catholic church claims that Peter is the rock, well, why is it that they have strayed so far from Peter's own writings on baptism and the holy spirit?

Knowing what I know now, I can see the holes that were taught to me in my youth at the Catholic church.

Jozak

06-22-2004, 08:22 AM

Then you don't see the resemblance betwee one world religion that will be imposed during the reign of the antichrist, and the pushing of interfaithism of the Catholic church?
No, that type of anti Catholic trash has been used since the Reformation.

Hmm, I don't see how I can be misinformed when I attended a Catholic church and it's school for years. I've read all of the stories about limbo, and hail marys and other things inbedded in the catholic religion that hardly pertain to the bible. For example, I am amused how the idea of limbo was actually taught to me in grade school when Emperor Constantine admitted that this spiritual waiting place between Heaven and Hell was created to get more money out of church members.
I think it's funny you don't even know what that waiting place is called: Purgatory? Yeah, it's in the bible, there are over a dozen passages that hint or imply a place such as it, it all comes down to interpretation. Purgatory is NOT a bad place, it's a soul-cleansing place. No one can die sinless, and it only makes sense that those sins need to be cleansed in order to enter heaven pure.

I am amused how God requires ten percent tithings and the Catholic church demands twenty percent from it's members. God's word commands the ten percent, and anything else given is to be of ones own personal offering. It's sad when the church has to pass around a collection plate twice.
That is bullshit, and I dare you to prove it. I was taught in Catholic school/CCD/Church that you give what you can and feel you can give, I have NEVER heard the Vatican proclaim 20%--but we shall see if you can back that up. Oh, and that collection bin going around a second time is mainly for charity work, but nice try.

I also find it amusing that the pope gets to pick and choose those for , "sainthood". Obviously, a "saint", is a human. God's first commandment says, "Thou shall have no other God's".
That makes no sense whatsoever. Do you even know what the standards are to become a saint?! The Pope does not just give out the title "Saint" to anyone, that is your first mistake. Secondly, we pray to saints and we ask them to pray for us. They are not gods, you are correct, but we have never claimed them to be at all. And if you have ever asked your mother or father to pray for you, or you have told someone you will pray for them, you are a hypocrite.

Praying to saints is a waste of breath. You cannot come to God through ANY other way but through the name of of Jesus. Not saint David, or saint so and so. As I have said before, same with Mary. Does a saint have the power of forgiveness? Did Mary die on the cross. No, Jesus did, so when you pray, so why would you pray to anyone else?
It is not a waste of breath at all. If I told you I would pray for you, would that be a waste of breath? Your thinking is so linear. We do not worship Mary or the saints. We ask them to pray for us--The Apostoles did, the Early Church fathers did as well, and I will take their word over yours ANY day.

As far as confession, Jesus did not say talk to an old guy in a robe about your sin. He said confess them to the father, that you may be forgiven. Forgiveness comes through prayer and sorrow, and determination not to continue the sin, not tossing out a few Hail Marys and Our Fathers.
I was expecting you to be bible literate, but apparently I was wrong. I believe Christ told the 12, "Forgive others in my name"? And aren't you the one that is supposed to take the bible, "Literally?"

Has the catholic church not read the verse on vain repetition? Our Father is actually a guideline for prayer. Thanking God, praising him, blessing the food, asking for forgiveness for our sins against him and others, asking that his will be done in our lives, and asking for strength against temptation. He didn't say for us to repeat the same words over and over.
You actually have the audacity to sit there and critisize our saying of the Lord's Prayer, or a Hail Mary? Do you have anything better to bitch about?

The Catholic church believes that Jesus is coming back. That is great, he is, but do they teach their members what to expect? What to look for? No...
Yes, I was. We read revelation along with the gospels numerous times in my Catholic School.

It wasn't until I began to attend a Christian school that I even knew what the mark of the beast was.
Well now that I know what I am dealing with (you beleiving Catholics are not Christians) I don't have to take your intellect or responses too seriously.

Infact, the church didn't even recommend that we bring our Bibles, or read them during chatecism. That is interesting. We weren't going over verses and explaining their meaning, we were just going over these man made rules in the Catholic faith. A church of God should ALWAYS want you to bring your bible and read along.
Please shut up. You are possibly the biggest bullshitter on here. OUR GRADES IN RELIGION CLASS WERE MARKED DOWN IF WE DID NOT BRING OUR BIBLES. LOL...oh my god, since you maybe attended a crappy Catholic school--heck, ALL OF THEM MUST BE THAT WAY RIGHT!?

Acts 2:38 says, "Repent and be baptized and you shall be filled with the holy spirit". hmmm, when I was an infant, what concept did I have of repentance? NONE! My parents can't repent for me, I am the only one who can repent. What examples do we have of babies repenting and being baptized in the Bible? There are none, because every single example of someone being baptized in the bible shows that they were submerged completely in water after repentance, in the name of Jesus. I mean sure, it's convenient to sprinkle a bit of water on a baby's head, but since when does convenience get you to the kingdom of Heaven?
Several verses cover the infilling of the holy spirit (spirit of God) and how it happens. God said that his people would speak with new tongues. The Catholic church claims that Peter is the rock, well, why is it that they have strayed so far from Peter's own writings on baptism and the holy spirit?

Knowing what I know now, I can see the holes that were taught to me in my youth at the Catholic church.

First let me ask you if you are going to gripe at the Lutheran, Anglican, and other Protestant sects that baptize their infants?

Secondly, again, your bible is different than mine. Mine reads:
"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38)." For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him" (2:39).

Epiphany

06-22-2004, 09:31 AM

No, that type of anti Catholic trash has been used since the Reformation.Funny, it's being taught right now

That is bullshit, and I dare you to prove it. I was taught in Catholic school/CCD/Church that you give what you can and feel you can give, I have NEVER heard the Vatican proclaim 20%--but we shall see if you can back that up. Oh, and that collection bin going around a second time is mainly for charity work, but nice try. I've known people who are sent little collection evelopes from their former church (which is amusing in itself that a church you don't even attend anymore would ask you for your money) for twenty percent of their income.

That makes no sense whatsoever. Do you even know what the standards are to become a saint?! The Pope does not just give out the title "Saint" to anyone, that is your first mistake. Secondly, we pray to saints and we ask them to pray for us. They are not gods, you are correct, but we have never claimed them to be at all. And if you have ever asked your mother or father to pray for you, or you have told someone you will pray for them, you are a hypocrite. Your asking people in Heaven who cannot hear you to pray for you when you can ask God himself? "And all of the saints, hear our prayers". "What the standards are to become a saint". Can you show me the rules and specific on "How to become a Saint", in the Bible. Because according to Jesus's teachings, I don't see these rules. I know that vatican has these rules because they are MAN made.

It is not a waste of breath at all. If I told you I would pray for you, would that be a waste of breath? Your thinking is so linear. We do not worship Mary or the saints. We ask them to pray for us--The Apostoles did, the Early Church fathers did as well, and I will take their word over yours ANY day. You hear physically, you can interceed for me. Do you honestly think that they can hear your prayers? I don't think I have read any passage that says that those who have passed can pass your message on to God, when you can have direct contact with himself yourself. Praying for someone is different, and there is such that as intercession, but someone who is alive is praying for you. Not to mention that fact that, you don't know who is going to Heaven and who is not. Man makes saints by HIS standards. God does not have a formula for a saint in his word.

Yes, and until the age of ten I had no clue what the mark of the beast was because it was never explained in my catholic school

You actually have the audacity to sit there and critisize our saying of the Lord's Prayer, or a Hail Mary? Do you have anything better to bitch about? Where is hail mary in the bible? I don't remember Jesus preaching this at all, do you? I don't know about you, but I follow the teachings that Jesus gave me in his word. I don't follow things that man makes up.

Yes, I was. We read revelation along with the gospels numerous times in my Catholic School.Maybe that is because according to another member on here, we are taught differently. My catholic school and church never went over revelation. All they say is, "We know Christ is coming back". There was no preparation. No warnings. Even after shortly attending the catholic church after grade school, having to learn about revelation from a Christian school, there was no talk of the end times. No mention of any of it. Never, at any Catholic church I have attended, was there ever a message on Revelation.

Please shut up. You are possibly the biggest bullshitter on here. OUR GRADES IN RELIGION CLASS WERE MARKED DOWN IF WE DID NOT BRING OUR BIBLES. LOL...oh my god, since you maybe attended a crappy Catholic school--heck, ALL OF THEM MUST BE THAT WAY RIGHT!?

I was never told to bring my bible to school. All we needed to bring was the catholic book of so called truth. The bible was never read out of, only their special little books. No I cannot speak for the churches in your country, but I have attended several catholic churches in the states in my lifetime that were all based on their own teachings and traditions.

First let me ask you if you are going to gripe at the Lutheran, Anglican, and other Protestant sects that baptize their infants?And again I will ask you to show me where there is any evidence of a child being baptized in the bible? Most places won't even baptize young children because they don't understand the concept of repenting for sin. Baptism is for the remission of sins. If children do not understand that the whole point of baptism is to be washed clean of sin, then there is no point in baptising them until they can comprehend that. Baptisim without forgiveness of sin, without YOU yourself, being sorry of your sin, and repenting it to Christ, is just getting wet. I've attended a Lutheran high school and I don't remember anything being mentioned on baptism of children there. But even so, both the Lutheran and the Christian religions pointed out things that the Catholic churches and schools I have attended, NEVER made mention of. I'm not sure how a church can claim to be a church of Christ, and not teach baptism based on John the Baptist.

Secondly, again, your bible is different than mine. Mine reads:
"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38)." For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him" (2:39).Yes, and look up and verse 4... "All of them were filled with the holy spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the spirit enabled them". When you have the holy ghost, you speak in tongues. Isaiah 28:11 "Very well, with foreign lips and strange tongues".... That is how you know you have the holy spirit. The catholic church seems to think that just by saying you believe in God, then you are filled with his spirit, which, by reading the verses above, we say that is not the case. I have never seen one single catholic church here make mention of tongues. My family, and other catholics I know, look at me strange when I mention this because they do not teach it here. Once again, I hear that it is different in other parts of the country, but I have yet to see a catholic church here that emphasizes Jesus's words in when he said in John 3:5, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom unless he is born of the water and the spirit". Yes, the promise is to everyone. It's God's will for people to repent, be baptized, and be filled with his spirit. If it wasn't, then it would not have been spoke of in his Word. But notice the, "and", conjoining the two. "Repent and be baptized AND you shall recieve the gift of the holy spirit. So, Jesus having said this,and gave it to us as a command in John, then why does the catholic church not teach this message. My grandmother was raised Catholic, been in the church seventy plus years. She didn't know what the infilling of the holy spirit was.

Jozak

06-23-2004, 04:47 AM

Funny, it's being taught right now
It's uneducated, false, and bigoted. I think the funny part is real people with actual brains buy into that nonsense.

I've known people who are sent little collection evelopes from their former church (which is amusing in itself that a church you don't even attend anymore would ask you for your money) for twenty percent of their income.
An individual church might ask for extra money/2nd collection for funding the church building, expanding it, building rec centers/schools, for mission work here or abroad, charity or somthing along those lines. The Vatican has NEVER instructed members to give 20% of their income, and you have yet to prove they do. You have also yet to name a specific church that instructs that, which shows how much you really are bullshitting the rest of us on here.

Your asking people in Heaven who cannot hear you to pray for you when you can ask God himself? "And all of the saints, hear our prayers".
How do you know they can't hear us? They are alive in heaven are they not?

"What the standards are to become a saint". Can you show me the rules and specific on "How to become a Saint", in the Bible. Because according to Jesus's teachings, I don't see these rules. I know that vatican has these rules because they are MAN made.
SO WHAT?! Just becasue it is not in the bible? Christ never said the bible was the ultimate authority, NEVER. Christianity and it's traditions exsisted long before the bible was officially cannonized at the Synod of Hippo in 393 AD. The bible doesn't tell you how to train a dog either Epiphany, are you not going to train your dog becasue it's not specifically in the bible? Once again, traditions have been passed down by not only the bible, but the early church fathers as well, and as I said before I will take the teachings of the early church fathers over your backward interpretation of the bible anyday.

You hear physically, you can interceed for me. Do you honestly think that they can hear your prayers?
I don't think I have read any passage that says that those who have passed can pass your message on to God, when you can have direct contact with himself yourself. Praying for someone is different, and there is such that as intercession, but someone who is alive is praying for you. Not to mention that fact that, you don't know who is going to Heaven and who is not. Man makes saints by HIS standards. God does not have a formula for a saint in his word.[/quote]
Revelation 5:8 clearly says they can. Perhaps you should go back and re-read your bible.

Yes, and until the age of ten I had no clue what the mark of the beast was because it was never explained in my catholic school
Uhhh....maybe becasue the Mark of the Beast is not quite apporpriate for a 10 year old? A 10 year old is a baby to me. I was not taught that until much later, I was in middle school actually.

Where is hail mary in the bible? I don't remember Jesus preaching this at all, do you? I don't know about you, but I follow the teachings that Jesus gave me in his word. I don't follow things that man makes up.
Again, so what? The early church fathers and the apostoles (who were the closest to Christ himself) clearly understood the grace the Virgin Mary possesses, and I can cite dozens of quotes to prove my points if you wish with all I have said.

Maybe that is because according to another member on here, we are taught differently. My catholic school and church never went over revelation. All they say is, "We know Christ is coming back". There was no preparation. No warnings. Even after shortly attending the catholic church after grade school, having to learn about revelation from a Christian school, there was no talk of the end times. No mention of any of it. Never, at any Catholic church I have attended, was there ever a message on Revelation.
More bullshit. I can think of several recent homolies/sermons our priests have said about revelation and how we should be prepared for Christ's coming: Live your life as a Christian daily, becasue we will never know the time or hour Christ is coming back for us. You brand your supposed "bad" teachings at your supposed, "Catholic Church" and the fact you actually beleive it is taught like that internationally, is very simple minded.

I was never told to bring my bible to school. All we needed to bring was the catholic book of so called truth. The bible was never read out of, only their special little books. No I cannot speak for the churches in your country, but I have attended several catholic churches in the states in my lifetime that were all based on their own teachings and traditions.
For one thing, I am an American citizen. I immigrated here with my family over 10 years ago. So yes, I went to Catholic school in the U.S., and have attended church almost my entire life here, so I don't buy your tall tales of the evil Catholic Churches in your state you have supposedly attended.

And again I will ask you to show me where there is any evidence of a child being baptized in the bible? Most places won't even baptize young children because they don't understand the concept of repenting for sin. Baptism is for the remission of sins. If children do not understand that the whole point of baptism is to be washed clean of sin, then there is no point in baptising them until they can comprehend that. Baptisim without forgiveness of sin, without YOU yourself, being sorry of your sin, and repenting it to Christ, is just getting wet. I've attended a Lutheran high school and I don't remember anything being mentioned on baptism of children there. But even so, both the Lutheran and the Christian religions pointed out things that the Catholic churches and schools I have attended, NEVER made mention of. I'm not sure how a church can claim to be a church of Christ, and not teach baptism based on John the Baptist.
DID YOU EVEN READ THE VERSE?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38)." For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him" (2:39).

NEWS FLASH EPIPHANY--Baptism is NOT limited to Adults 18+.

So let me get this straight, you were supposedly Catholic, attended Catholic school, then a Lutheran school? I am not buying any of what you are saying becasue NONE of it makes sense. You have yet to prove even one of your ridiculous assertions about the Catholic Church, with substantial proof, for one thing. Secondly, I am still waiting for you to show me which Catholic churches have asked their members for 20% of their incomes, and thirdly, while your at it, give me the names of the Catholic churches you attended, I swear I will call them up and ask if you EVER attended their schools or if students are told there not to bring their bibles. Go on, put your money where your mouth is, it's now time to test your little stories.

Yes, and look up and verse 4... "All of them were filled with the holy spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the spirit enabled them". When you have the holy ghost, you speak in tongues. Isaiah 28:11 "Very well, with foreign lips and strange tongues".... That is how you know you have the holy spirit. The catholic church seems to think that just by saying you believe in God, then you are filled with his spirit, which, by reading the verses above, we say that is not the case. I have never seen one single catholic church here make mention of tongues. My family, and other catholics I know, look at me strange when I mention this because they do not teach it here. Once again, I hear that it is different in other parts of the country, but I have yet to see a catholic church here that emphasizes Jesus's words in when he said in John 3:5, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom unless he is born of the water and the spirit". Yes, the promise is to everyone. It's God's will for people to repent, be baptized, and be filled with his spirit. If it wasn't, then it would not have been spoke of in his Word. But notice the, "and", conjoining the two. "Repent and be baptized AND you shall recieve the gift of the holy spirit. So, Jesus having said this,and gave it to us as a command in John, then why does the catholic church not teach this message. My grandmother was raised Catholic, been in the church seventy plus years. She didn't know what the infilling of the holy spirit was.
So basically if I don't speak in tounges, I do not possess the holy spirit? Bah. I think most of the time people either are full of themselves or, "get caught up in the moment". No, the Catholic Church does not teach just by SAYING you have faith in God means you have it, that's a Protestant idea, not a Catholic one.

Epiphany

06-23-2004, 07:16 AM

It's uneducated, false, and bigoted. I think the funny part is real people with actual brains buy into that nonsense.If you knew anything about Revelation, you know that the False Prophet will be a religious leader. I'm not really sure how people don't see that if the catholic church predicts a black/dark pope, you don't think that would relate to the false prophet. Hmmm false prophet, evil leader... I also find it amusing that in order to point things out to me, you have to resort to name calling and cut downs. That isn't very Godly-like, is it?

Just becasue it is not in the bible? Christ never said the bible was the ultimate authority, NEVER. Christianity and it's traditions exsisted long before the bible was officially cannonized at the Synod of Hippo in 393 AD. The bible doesn't tell you how to train a dog either Epiphany, are you not going to train your dog becasue it's not specifically in the bible? Once again, traditions have been passed down by not only the bible, but the early church fathers as well, and as I said before I will take the teachings of the early church fathers over your backward interpretation of the bible anyday.So, God gave us the Bible for fun then? And Jesus Christ himself said, when the church elders protested the way his disciples behaved, "You have let go of the commands of God and are holding onto the the traditions of men. You have a find way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions." (Mark 7:8) Exactly, traditions have been passed on by MEN. If a church leader's methods don't coincide with the bible, then there is not point in following them because they are merely TRADITIONS. And we are talking about God's instructions for our life, hence, why he gave us the Bible. Backwards interpretation? Seems clear as day to me. That's your perogative to take teachings of man, but I prefer to stick to Jesus's teachings and those he has placed as teachers who actually follow his word. Not those who make up traditions for their own benefit, or just, "something nice that we do".

I Revelation 5:8 clearly says they can. Perhaps you should go back and re-read your bible. Uh, then I take it that your not aware when Peter says, "Pray for me saints", in his letter to the Corinthians, he is speaking to the followers of Christ. Who are the followers of Christ? his believers! He isn't merely talking to these people that you see in pictures or hear catholic churches named after. God's people, the chosen ones, believers, saints, the elect, those are ALL God's followers. Not just those who did these good things and were named saints by a man in a robe.

Uhhh....maybe becasue the Mark of the Beast is not quite apporpriate for a 10 year old? A 10 year old is a baby to me. I was not taught that until much later, I was in middle school actually.So, if you have a child, and the antichrist was reigning today, how would you explain to your child why you and your family don't accept the mark of the beast, so, your child has no food, because those who don't accept the mark, will not be able to sell or purchase. Would you not explain this to your children? My family didn't even know all these teachings and they were all raised in the catholic church.

Again, so what? The early church fathers and the apostoles (who were the closest to Christ himself) clearly understood the grace the Virgin Mary possesses, and I can cite dozens of quotes to prove my points if you wish with all I have said. Yeah... She was blessed by God and bore the son. That doesn't make her equal with God, that makes her a woman who is blessed. I hate to tell you this, but, she has no power. She is merely a blessed woman. The apostles said hail mary when? The apostles were close to Mary because she was his mother. Anyone who is a follower of Christ is blessed. ould yWou like me to ask my church memeber to go run a message up to God for me? Should I pray, "holy so and so"? Peter was blessed by Jesus by being the rock he built his church on. Do we say, "holy peter, apostle of Jesus?" No, we don't. We know that he was a disciple, and that he was blessed, but he doesn't hold any special power.

More bullshit. I can think of several recent homolies/sermons our priests have said about revelation and how we should be prepared for Christ's coming: Live your life as a Christian daily, becasue we will never know the time or hour Christ is coming back for us. Actually believe? I think I have said it twice now that I was raised catholic. My entire family is catholic. Every catholic church I have ever attended has been the same way. The last time I heard anything said about Christ's coming back at the catholic church...."We believe that Christ is coming back to judge the living and the dead"... that was it. No sermon, no message, just a simple. "We believe". The main focus was always on their teachings.

DID YOU EVEN READ THE VERSE

NEWS FLASH EPIPHANY--Baptism is NOT limited to Adults 18+ Did I ever say that? No, I did NOT. I said that until one can COMPREHEND the idea of repentance, then baptizing them means nothing. How can you baptize someone who hasn't repented? What, are you now saying that parents are repenting for their children? Because I hate to tell you that the bible says that everyone must repent for themselves. I was baptized when I was baby. Do you think I was lying there in my little baptism dress thinking, "Oh God, I repent for my sin?" No, I wasn't, because I want a baby! I know of some seven year old children who are baptized and filled with the holy ghost. They understood the concept, if they didn't, God wouldn't have filled with them. You keep missing the point. Did you ask for forgiveness when you were baptized as an infant? No, you didn't. Yes, you can be baptized under the age of 18, no, baptism means nothing if you are not asking for forgiveness.

So let me get this straight, you were supposedly Catholic, attended Catholic school, then a Lutheran school? I am not buying any of what you are saying becasue NONE of it makes sense. LOL, yeah, I'm going to give a complete stranger online the names, adresses and phone numbers of all of the schools I attended? Are you nuts? I attended a catholic church from birth, until high school. I attended a catholic school from grade one through the first half of fith grade. I attended a christian school from the middle of fifth grade, through eighth grade. (Which was the first time that the message of forgiveness before baptism was ever preached) I attended a lutheran school junior and senior year. I will have my family give me the specifics of the sermons preached in church from now on, and you can tell me if you don't see anything wrong with them. I'm sorry, but why would I lie about schools I have attended?

basically if I don't speak in tounges, I do not possess the holy spirit? Bah. I think most of the time people either are full of themselves or, "get caught up in the moment". No, the Catholic Church does not teach just by SAYING you have faith in God means you have it, that's a Protestant idea, not a Catholic one.Well, if God says that he will give his believers his own spirit, and they will know with strange lips and foreign tongues, which the book of Acts clearly shows the infilling of the holy ghost BY speaking in tongues, then no, you are not filled with the holy ghost. I'm sorry, but Acts shows us that is how we know we have the holy ghost, by speaking in the language God gives us. If you don't believe that, and discredit the bookf of Acts, then how you do call yourself a follower? I was taught in my catholic school that all I had to do was believe in God, be a good girl, and obey the church, and that meant I was alright with God. Infact, never, in the five years I spent at the catholic school, was I ever taught the word, "saved". Just to follow the teachings that they provided in their own little books and that I would be okay. No, the bible shows that those who are filled with the holy spirit, speak with a new tongue. I'm not really sure who is teaching you that you have the holy spirit, when Acts shows you how you know that you posess it. Because anyone that is showing you something that goes against what the bible says, is false. I have never been to one single catholic church that said anything other than believing in God, obeying the commandments, and complying to all of these nifty man made sacraments, then you are going to Heaven. Most of the members of my church came from a catholic background.s as well. They had never heard of asking for forgiveness before being baptized, being filled with the holy ghost, or anything else that has been preached at the catholic churches they have attended and neither have I. They never knew that there was much more than a rosary, sprinkling of water, some bread and wine. I just talked to someone who was raised in the catholic church their entire life what baptism means in her faith. She said, "We do it so that if the baby dies, that they will go to Heaven". Well of course babies go to Heaven if they die. They don't have the option of deciding to follow Christ or not because their babies! that was that. There was NO message of repenting for sin, at all, just some way of preventing a baby from hell. So, I suppose your going to tell me that the sixty-seventy years she has spent in the catholic church is a lie? or did you expect me to give you her phone number so you could ask her this?

sassure

06-23-2004, 02:58 PM

The Catholic Church membership has taken a hit lately, and Vatican leaders are concerned. But they won't be able to stop the inevitable: world religions are going to have to become more pragmatic, more practical, more accessible. The Name-Of-The-Rose days are over; the emphasis now is on seeking and questioning, not inheriting and repeating.

Jozak

06-24-2004, 06:12 AM

Epiphany--I am going out of town for about 2 days, but I will get back to you with a reply, but it's 1:14 AM my time and I am very sleepy.

Sassure: Interesting point. I do agree that the Church has some challenges in front of it by keeping it's members, but statistics show there are over 1 Billion Catholics internationally, so I think they are doing some things right but need some drastic reforms. Point taken.

sassure

06-24-2004, 01:58 PM

Yes, the Catholic Church is still a powerful force, and there are a lot of believers and supporters. How the church handles the current crises will determine whether it shrinks or grows as the 21st century unfolds.

Born and raised Irish-Catholic, I know only too well the way an organized religion can dominate one's daily life, as it does even today in so many places such as Ireland, Mexico, Central America, and South America.

What's happening now may be just a bump in the road, or it may be the beginning of a profound change. Either way, the change will be gradual, and not quite as painful as some would imagine......

gnrm23

06-24-2004, 04:12 PM

i think that the roman catholic church should be more concerned about the number of men entering the priesthood... currently in the usa, something less than 600 per year entered seminary (compared to like almost 6000/year during the mid-1960s)...
allowing married clergy & the ordination of women within the roman catholic church could do much the relieve the drain of qualified applicants from the pool, eh?
~
& back in the 60s, the pope & the vatican II council seemed far more open to "other voices" than the current pontiff...
(although ecumenical dialogs are still continuing between the church of rome & other christian groups, such as lutherans & anglicans & eastern orthodox bodies...)
~
shalom

Alsharad

06-25-2004, 01:45 PM

On the intercession thing:

Revelation 5:8 - And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Okay. Saints have prayers. Okay. Is that an ordained "saint" or does it mean the saints as in "all the elect."? Even then, where do you draw the idea that these are intercessory prayers? The passage doesn't say one way or the other.

Also note Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 - For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

And Ecclesiastes 9:10 - Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

It is pretty indicative that the dead do not know what transpires here. The cannot hear us. Even if they could though, they would not be omniscient (so they wouldn't know what every person was praying) nor would they be omnipresent (so they couldn't hear every prayer). The only option would be for them to be in a special room or something or have some sort of mechanism in order for them to hear every prayer that was prayed to them in order for them to interceed. There is no scriptural basis for this IMHO, and postulating that one exists without having the scriptural support is really just making up things in order to support the presupposition that the saints can hear us. In a sense, it is simply begging the question.

So you are left with asking someone who might not hear you to pray for you (either because they cannot hear every prayer or because they cannot hear the living at all). Why not just pray to the one who intercedes for all of us (Jesus Christ). He IS omnicient and omnipresent and, as such, can hear every prayer. Why bother asking a saint for intercession when Christ is available? Also, if we, at the foot of the cross, are all ontologically equal and all loved equally by God, why would God hold the prayers of you and I in less regard than the prayers of Mary, Peter, John, etc.?

Epiphany

06-27-2004, 09:44 AM

I find it interesting that the Catholic church has revised their 400 year old written catechism to include Muslims in the plan of salvation. The thing about the Muslim faith is that they don't believe that Jesus Christ was the Messiah. The begining of salvation is belief in Jesus. Jesus said, ""If you don't believe I am he, ye shall die in your sins".

Jozak

06-28-2004, 05:41 PM

Jozak

06-28-2004, 06:25 PM

If you knew anything about Revelation, you know that the False Prophet will be a religious leader. I'm not really sure how people don't see that if the catholic church predicts a black/dark pope, you don't think that would relate to the false prophet. Hmmm false prophet, evil leader... I also find it amusing that in order to point things out to me, you have to resort to name calling and cut downs. That isn't very Godly-like, is it?
Are you racist?!!?!?! How would a black pope be indicative of the false prophet? Black people have a better chance of being the anti-christ, according to you? Besides that, it is commonly accepted by most that the anti-Christ will rise out of the middle east.

So, God gave us the Bible for fun then? And Jesus Christ himself said, when the church elders protested the way his disciples behaved, "You have let go of the commands of God and are holding onto the the traditions of men. You have a find way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions." (Mark 7:8) Exactly, traditions have been passed on by MEN. If a church leader's methods don't coincide with the bible, then there is not point in following them because they are merely TRADITIONS. And we are talking about God's instructions for our life, hence, why he gave us the Bible. Backwards interpretation? Seems clear as day to me. That's your perogative to take teachings of man, but I prefer to stick to Jesus's teachings and those he has placed as teachers who actually follow his word. Not those who make up traditions for their own benefit, or just, "something nice that we do".
The problem is the bible was not compiled unitl the 3rd century at the council of Hippo in 393 AD! So how were the early Christians saved if they did not possess the entire written "Word of God" to follow his teachings? Well, naturally, they were taught through "oral" teachings by the Church, not by writings. Traditions existed prior to that, they had to, otherwise the Church would have died out. Christ NEVER said the bible was the ultimate authority, and in fact, said the church was. The Bible Itself states that their are "oral" teachings and traditions that are to be carried on to the present-day (2 Thessalonians 2:15; 1 Corinthians 11:2; 2 Timothy 2:2; Romans 10:17; 1 Peter 1:24-25). These teachings are what the Catholic Church considers "Apostolic Tradition." This type of "tradition" never changes because it was passed down by the Apostles themselves. It is not the same as the man-made traditions condemned in Scripture. The man-made traditions condemned in Scripture you are talking about are those of the Jewish Pharisees. In fact, those who don't follow apostolic traditions are chided pretty harshly in 2 Thessalonians 3:6.

Uh, then I take it that your not aware when Peter says, "Pray for me saints", in his letter to the Corinthians, he is speaking to the followers of Christ. Who are the followers of Christ? his believers! He isn't merely talking to these people that you see in pictures or hear catholic churches named after. God's people, the chosen ones, believers, saints, the elect, those are ALL God's followers. Not just those who did these good things and were named saints by a man in a robe.
No, that is your interpretation of it, and I think it is wrong. This is a prayer to St. Joseph that dates back to 50 A.D. - long before the last Apostle had died and less than 20 years after the death of Christ. If the early Christians asked the "dead" foster father of Christ to intercede for them and it was "wrong," why is there no "documentation" from the Twelve Apostles "reprimanding" them for this? Surely, the Apostles would have corrected the early Church had It been in err?

"O St. Joseph whose protection is so great, so strong, so prompt before the Throne of God, I place in you all my interests and desires.O St. Joseph do assist me by your powerful intercession and obtain for me from your Divine Son all spiritual blessings through Jesus Christ, Our Lord; so that having engaged here below your Heavenly power I may offer my Thanksgiving and Homage to the most Loving of Fathers.O St. Joseph I never weary contemplating you and Jesus asleep in your arms. I dare not approach while He reposes near your heart. Press him in my name and kiss His fine Head for me, and ask Him to return the Kiss when I draw my dying breath.St. Joseph, Patron of departing souls, pray for us. Amen."

Yeah... She was blessed by God and bore the son. That doesn't make her equal with God, that makes her a woman who is blessed. I hate to tell you this, but, she has no power. She is merely a blessed woman. The apostles said hail mary when? The apostles were close to Mary because she was his mother. Anyone who is a follower of Christ is blessed. ould yWou like me to ask my church memeber to go run a message up to God for me? Should I pray, "holy so and so"? Peter was blessed by Jesus by being the rock he built his church on. Do we say, "holy peter, apostle of Jesus?" No, we don't. We know that he was a disciple, and that he was blessed, but he doesn't hold any special power.
Scripture states that angels are superior to men (Luke 20:36; Hebrews 2:7; 2 Peter 2:11) so why would a superior being (St. Gabriel) "hail" (salute, honor or praise) Mary (a "supposed" inferior being)? If this honor is given to Mary as Scripture states, then Mary must be greater than the angels. Are you seriously comparing your church member to the Mother of Christ? That is ridiculous. Mary does have powers, weather you choose to accept them or not. Why not ask the Virgin Mary or any other saint to "pray for you?" Just because they are no longer "of this world" does not mean they don't "talk" to God. The saints in heaven are not "separated" by death from the community of the Church (Romans 8:38-39) as we are ALL one Body in Christ (Romans 12:5; 1 Corinthians 12:12) and Christ "abolished death" (2 Timothy 1:10). Therefore, the saints in Heaven can pray for us just as anyone here on Earth can. In fact, better, as they are presently with God. The Virgin Mary asking God to help you should "carry more weight" so to speak than having your best friend on this earth praying for you. True or not? In fact, Christ's first public miracle was performed upon the "intercession" of His own mother (John 2:2-11).

Actually believe? I think I have said it twice now that I was raised catholic. My entire family is catholic. Every catholic church I have ever attended has been the same way. The last time I heard anything said about Christ's coming back at the catholic church...."We believe that Christ is coming back to judge the living and the dead"... that was it. No sermon, no message, just a simple. "We believe". The main focus was always on their teachings.
Again, my priests have talked about the anti-christ and such in their homolies. I cannot help that the churches you have attended didn't.

Did I ever say that? No, I did NOT. I said that until one can COMPREHEND the idea of repentance, then baptizing them means nothing. How can you baptize someone who hasn't repented? What, are you now saying that parents are repenting for their children? Because I hate to tell you that the bible says that everyone must repent for themselves. I was baptized when I was baby. Do you think I was lying there in my little baptism dress thinking, "Oh God, I repent for my sin?" No, I wasn't, because I want a baby! I know of some seven year old children who are baptized and filled with the holy ghost. They understood the concept, if they didn't, God wouldn't have filled with them. You keep missing the point. Did you ask for forgiveness when you were baptized as an infant? No, you didn't. Yes, you can be baptized under the age of 18, no, baptism means nothing if you are not asking for forgiveness.
Why would you change somthing that has been done since the early Christian times? None of the Fathers or councils of the Church was claiming that the practice was contrary to Scripture or tradition. They agreed that the practice of baptizing infants was the appropriate practice since the days of the early Church; the only uncertainty seemed to be when—exactly—an infant should be baptized. Further evidence that infant baptism was the accepted practice in the early Church is the fact that if infant baptism had been opposed to the religious practices of the first believers, why do we have no record of early Christian writers condemning it? Furthermore, the Bible never says, "Faith in Christ is necessary for salvation except for infants"; it simply says, "Faith in Christ is necessary for salvation." So by making an exception for infants, you are instantaneoulsy condeming all infants to hell.

"For if the one party concede to the other that remission of sins takes place in all infants which are baptized, whilst the other concedes to their opponents that infants (as infant nature itself in its silence loudly proclaims) have as yet contracted no sin in their own living, then both sides must agree in conceding to us, that nothing remains but original sin, which can be remitted in baptism to infants." - St. Augustine of Hippo ("On The Merits And Forgiveness Of Sins, And The Baptism Of Infants" 4th century A.D.)

Epiphany

06-29-2004, 08:34 AM

Are you racist?!!?!?!

No, I am certainly not racist! Black/dark as in ominous, not African American. *sigh*

The problem is the bible was not compiled unitl the 3rd century at the council of Hippo in 393 AD! So how were the early Christians saved if they did not possess the entire written "Word of God" to follow his teachings? Tradition." This type of "tradition" never changes because it was passed down by the Apostles themselves.

Peter, the Apostle, where are his tradition of tongues and baptism in the name of Jesus that the Catholic church does not follow? "As the church grew older, not only did false teachers rise up, but also many sincere individuals misunderstood the teachings of the Scripture. This setting produced many wrong ideas about baptism. When the coundil of Nicea met in 325 A.D., the Trinitarian formula for baptism was adopted. Since this time the trinity was embraced and the Trinitarian baptismal formula gained prominence. It was immediately after this council that the Catholic Church began to be influenced by Christian circles, and even the political word. The next 1200 year the Catholic church was without revival. Many of these groups still use Matthew 28:19, as a basis for baptism, however, this scripture instructs the baptism in the NAME (singular) of the Father (John 5:43 "I am come in my Father's name"), the Son (Matthew 1:21 "And thou shalt call his name Jesus") and the Holy Ghost (John 14:26 "The holy ghost, whom the father will send in My name"). In all of these titles, we find but one name, the name of Jesus! - written by Pastor M.I. Otano - The Christian Revival Center (my Pentecostal church)

In fact, those who don't follow apostolic traditions are chided pretty harshly in 2 Thessalonians 3:6.

I attend an Aposotlic church and I can tell you that my church's Apostolic teachings and the Apostolic teachings of the Catholic church do not match. I cannot speak for those before the time of Jesus, but the whole purpose of Jesus's birth and death was to SAVE God's people.

No, that is your interpretation of it, and I think it is wrong.

I would read the statement on prayers of the dead by Alsharad three posts ago. He has scriptural references to back up his words.

Mary does have powers, weather you choose to accept them or not.

I'm sorry, but there is no record of Mary having any powers in the Bible. She bore Jesus Christ through the holy spirit. (Matthew 1:20 - "What is concieved in her is from the Holy Spirit") She never performed miracles or anything else of the like. She was a woman whom God looked upon with favor because she was a true follower. When Jesus spoke of his apostles, he said that in his name, they would drive out demons, speak with new tongues (as promised by the admission of the holy ghost) and heal others. Did mary possess that ability? Nope, if she did, there would be record of it! Just as he did Moses and Abraham, and countless others in the Bible, sincere followers were blessed. Actually, angels marvel at the sight of mankind. They long to look upon things that we posess that they don't (1 Peter 1:12). It makes sense that an angel would be in awe of Mary, due to the fact that angels did not give birth to Jesus, but mankind did. God promised his spirit in the form of the holy ghost to men, not to angels.

Why would you change something that has been done since the early Christian times? None of the Fathers or councils of the Church was claiming that the practice was contrary to Scripture or tradition.

There are examples in the Bible of how we are to live. Are there not? Show me ONE single scripture on baptism that says someone not repenting was baptized. John the Baptist preached this, Jesus preached it, and Peter preached it. If they were spreading this gospel, what right did the church have to change THEIR teaching? How can I change something that Jesus himself instructed? Jesus condemed church leaders for favoring their traditions over the law of God. As I have said before, children who die who do not understand the concept of the bible, don't go to hell. If you had a very young child that died, of course they would be in Heaven. They would not be condemned for never getting a chance to hear the gospel of Christ! But to say that a child can be baptized as an infant, never asking forgiveness of their sin when they are older, never being re-baptized after doing this, and their parents petitioning Christ for their child's salvation is ludacris. No one can impose salvation on another. You cannot save your children. You can pray for them, you can intercede for them, but when your child is old enough to understand the teaching of Christ, they must ask for forgiveness and be saved themselves! You cannot do it for them. Yeah, I was baptized as a baby. Merely sprinkled with a little water and prayed over. But when I came of age to understand the bible, did some sprinkled water on my head as an infant secure my salvation? Nope! because it was not MY choice to dedicate my life to Christ. It was my parent's choice. Say I had died, knowing of Christ as a teenager, but never repented myself. God would judge me saying, " You knew of my word, why did you not repent?" He wouldn't say, "Very good, my child, your parents repented for your sins when you were a baby". Salvation doesn't work that way. Salvation is between you and Jesus. If my baby cousin was die, of course he would be in Heaven. He is a year old. He does not understand the word, "no", let alone the Bible. But, when he is old enough to understand this and make his own decisions, his Catholic parents having him baptized does NOT mean he is saved. Salvation will ONLY come through repenting of sins and being baptized through JESUS's name (Acts 4:12 "For there is NO other name under Heaven given to men by which we MUST be saved") and being filled with the holy ghost, as the SCRIPTURE says. Honestly, we could sit and argue this for days and days, but it just comes down to Jesus's teaching verses the teaching of man. I am a believer, I think that I will take Jesus's own words over a man. If the bible tells us to repent and be baptized over and over again, who is anyone to debate it?

queenannie

06-29-2004, 10:16 AM

Show me ONE single scripture on baptism that says someone not repenting was baptized.

Matthew 3:13-17
Mark 1:9-11
Luke 3:21-22
These apply only if you believe Jesus was without sin.

But of course, there is an exception to every rule, and this is the exception that determines the rule. I'm not trying to tear down your argument, because I like your arguments. I am one, too, who would rather follow the words of Jesus than the words of men. If I were going to follow man's words, I'd follow my own! I just had to point out that little hole so that you could be sure and cover it next time.

I'm cheering you on! :D

themnax

07-02-2004, 10:50 PM

there is little more pityable or pathetic then power
save emotional attatchment to its vested arbitrary assumptions

nor is catholicism or even the broader totality of christianity
or the even broader then that totality of organized belief as a whole
by any means unique in that reguard

of course not even all of organized beliefs
are neccessarily monotheistic, chauvansitic, nor inclined toward fanatacism

this is so truely pathetic in its absurdity that they would even do that

=^^=
.../\...

Jozak

07-06-2004, 06:32 AM

Max, could you put that in a more simplistic manor? :p

geckopelli

07-06-2004, 02:43 PM

He's saying that those institutions are subject to the inherent fault of all institutions; power corrupts, and mainting vested interest rules.

Jozak

07-11-2004, 06:27 PM

Ok, wasn't sure lol Thanks!

Christian

07-14-2004, 04:22 PM

Why fight buddism and not satanism?

EllisDTripp

07-14-2004, 04:54 PM

Why fight buddism and not satanism?

Maybe because Buddhism has a FEW more adherents than "Satanism"? :)

For the most part, "Satanism" is an invention of the media and the fundamentalist right-wing, used to describe a mishmash of occult practices and rituals, practiced mainly by disaffected teenagers looking for kicks or a "cool" way to rebel.

The actual "Church of Satan", founded by Anton LaVey is more of a celebration of hedonism (and media stunt) than a serious worship of the Christian "anti-deity" named "Satan".

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/religions/satanism/cos/

queenannie

07-14-2004, 07:10 PM

Why fight buddism and not satanism?Wouldn't that be like "biting the hand that feeds you"?

xdianax

07-29-2004, 04:52 AM

I am disappointed by this article. I cannot understand why the mindset of the church is to "attack"; as if other religions are the enemy.

I myself am far from an expert in Catholicism/Christianity, seeing as my only education has been from a few church masses as a young child and CCD. Anyway, my CCD teacher told us many times that when she was a child they were always taught that they were "soldiers of Christ", but now the church no longer says that because they have moved away from that military-type of mentality. This article seems to show otherwise.

:) Namaste,

Diana

Epiphany

07-29-2004, 07:06 AM

Anyway, my CCD teacher told us many times that when she was a child they were always taught that they were "soldiers of Christ", but now the church no longer says that because they have moved away from that military-type of mentality. This article seems to show otherwise
She was right about being soldiers of Christ... in a way....

"For tho we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal. (II Corinthians 10:3-6)
"Put on the whole armour of God that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil (Ephesians 6:11)
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. (Ephesians 6:12)
Christian warfare is spiritual, not physical

xdianax

07-29-2004, 07:16 AM

Christian warfare is spiritual, not physical

Does that mean you think that Christianity is still in this military mindset? And what do you all think about this mindset?

:) Namaste,

Diana

Epiphany

07-30-2004, 07:31 AM

In a sense... when it comes to satan and fighting off temptation, yes

xdianax

07-30-2004, 10:42 PM

Hmmm, well I don't have a problem with that, but I particularly don't like the military mindset when dealing with other religions. I remember once in CCD my teacher told us how in mass the Priest had mentioned Wicca. She told us he'd seen someone with a Wiccan ornament or bumpsticker or something on their c ar in the church parking lot, and used the mass to "pray" for that person and to hope that they would realize how "dangerous" Wicca was. So then my teacher went on the same type of rant, telling us that if we knew any kids who were getting involved with it, to intervene and stop them, because the religion deals with satanic things. I was shocked, and I really don't care for that kind of mentality; Religions shouldn't be competing.

Instead of thinking of things in terms of "Us (Christianity) vs. Them ("New Age" religions)" I think the Vatican should stop thinking of how to convert people/"fight" against other religions, but rather try learning from them. An attitude of tolerance and learning toward other religions would be beneficial. The idea is not meant to be a one way street, other religions should try to learn more about Christianity and other religions as well. I think religion is not really about what is "right" or the "true" religion, but what religion works best for you. I don't try to convert a Christian I meet, because I know that their religion works best for the type of person they are, just as Buddhism works best for me.

:) Namaste,

Diana

GanjaPrince

07-31-2004, 04:58 AM

oh let them dance that silly dance, i will dance mine and say, tsk tsk, your should talk about the unity of religions, yet they don't, the mind clouded by ignorance of the chirst heart buddha mind laughing at the cosmic joke in krishna's arm, praise allah! You see, we tried to name a reality that has no names... silly us.

It's all god's play, lila, a dance of energy and light all unified, mass is energy, seperate is the illussion created by the rational mind, go deeper into the subtle levels you can listen to with a still mind, quieter your mind and look between the words, find that flowing glowing endless stream of energy that shines over all of the universe, it's in you. Find it, stay with it, learn from it, sink deeper into it's glory, then you will be with those that have no name, we are buddhists, we are christians, we are hindus, we are yogis, we are babas, we are saints, we are gurus, we are devotees, we are lovers, we are singers, we laugh, we play, we smile with the wonder and awe of a little child, some of us have no religion, others are in to mysticism, we come from all paths, all walks of life, some have no need to say it, others speak it all day long, does it matter? It is the vibe, we know it when we are there, and we play the game most of us, others refuse to, does it matter? It's about that love. Listen to your inner heart, it will lead you!

Epiphany

07-31-2004, 06:58 AM

So then my teacher went on the same type of rant, telling us that if we knew any kids who were getting involved with it, to intervene and stop them, because the religion deals with satanic things. I was shocked, and I really don't care for that kind of mentality; Religions shouldn't be
competing.Well the Bible does say that either we're with God or against God. Wicca may seem peaceful and involving nature and that's fine. Except that God says we shall have no other Gods but him. The dangerous part is when worshipping other God's come into play. Nature is beautiful, but God created nature.

Instead of thinking of things in terms of "Us (Christianity) vs. Them ("New Age" religions)" I think the Vatican should stop thinking of how to convert people/"fight" against other religions, but rather try learning from them. An attitude of tolerance and learning toward other religions would be beneficial. The idea is not meant to be a one way street, other religions should try to learn more about Christianity and other religions as well. I think religion is not really about what is "right" or the "true" religion, but what religion works best for you. I don't try to convert a Christian I meet, because I know that their religion works best for the type of person they are, just as Buddhism works best for me.
Basically, God said to go out and spread the word to all nations. We as Christians want to see others saved. That is why we preach and witness. I will say that sometimes, others tend to possess more Christians qualities than some Christians themselves. That is what Christians can learn from other religions. But when it comes to Christianity, the Bible tells us that anything that is of the world and not of God, should be avoided. That is why we may seem so close minded.

sweatininthesouth

07-31-2004, 04:27 PM

It's all god's play, lila, a dance of energy and light all unified, mass is energy, seperate is the illussion created by the rational mind, go deeper into the subtle levels you can listen to with a still mind, quieter your mind and look between the words, find that flowing glowing endless stream of energy that shines over all of the universe, it's in you. Find it, stay with it, learn from it, sink deeper into it's glory, then you will be with those that have no name, we are buddhists, we are christians, we are hindus, we are yogis, we are babas, we are saints, we are gurus, we are devotees, we are lovers, we are singers, we laugh, we play, we smile with the wonder and awe of a little child, some of us have no religion, others are in to mysticism, we come from all paths, all walks of life, some have no need to say it, others speak it all day long, does it matter? It is the vibe, we know it when we are there, and we play the game most of us, others refuse to, does it matter? It's about that love. Listen to your inner heart, it will lead you!
Bravo gangaprince! You said it very well and I totally agree with your version of God and love, as I believe the same way. How refreshing to see a twenty-something young person who is following their inner heart, soul and mind, instead of following a book full of words, written by men. God is not an old man sitting in the clouds, dictating his words to people on earth so they can write them down in a big book -- oh ye of little faith, you have completely missed the concept of God......so sad.

I hope to see you around here more often, prince. It's always refreshing to read enlightening words from others instead of closed-minded, programmed drivel.

xdianax

07-31-2004, 08:17 PM

:D Once again, GanjaPrince's words were so inspiring. Thank you for that wonderful post.

Well the Bible does say that either we're with God or against God. Wicca may seem peaceful and involving nature and that's fine. Except that God says we shall have no other Gods but him. The dangerous part is when worshipping other God's come into play. Nature is beautiful, but God created nature.

Basically, God said to go out and spread the word to all nations. We as Christians want to see others saved. That is why we preach and witness. I will say that sometimes, others tend to possess more Christians qualities than some Christians themselves. That is what Christians can learn from other religions. But when it comes to Christianity, the Bible tells us that anything that is of the world and not of God, should be avoided. That is why we may seem so close minded.

When you say "God said" you mean in the Bible right? Haha, sorry, I am not very knowledgable about Christianity. What exactly would you define/what do you mean when you say "anything that is of the world and not of God"? Isn't God all around us? As I understand it, in Christianity since God made us and this world he is really all around us. His creation can be seen in everything. So if you come across a Buddhist who tells you of the wonderful compassion he has for all sentient beings, there is no reason not to listen to what he has to say. You both, no matter what, have something in common: you're both human beings and you are both a result of God's creation. Because of this, I see no reason why religions shouldn't learn from each other and educate each other about their teachings. There are many great things we can accomplish if we learn to put aside differences and find commonalities between us.

:) Namaste,

Diana

MattInVegas

08-14-2004, 06:38 PM

BlackHoodedCrow

08-14-2004, 06:47 PM

Since When are Druids "New Age"?????

DarkLunacy

08-15-2004, 04:59 PM

Its new age because its a new trend amongst people. Anything founded by younger people or revamped is instantly new and hip... I like how the church wants to stomp out the religions that predate them. Next its the Jews...

xdianax

08-15-2004, 06:53 PM

Ya, the label of "New Age" is kind of ironic, because many of the religions existed before Christianity or Jesus. Buddhism which is considered "new age" existed hundreds of years before Jesus was even born. It has been around longer, but I guess it's still considered "new age" because only recently has the west come to embrace it.

:) In Kindness,

Diana

BlackHoodedCrow

08-15-2004, 07:39 PM

The western world is not the be all and end all. Druidism and other ancient religions stayed strong yet mostly underground. Who cares what the US adopted as "new age"

December

Mui

08-15-2004, 09:46 PM

This just further proves that catholicism is evil, to me.

Jozak

08-16-2004, 04:36 PM

Epiphany

08-17-2004, 06:43 AM

Well, HELL YEAH they are! It threatens the power they've held for so long over most of the planet! I mean, WHY can't Priests get married????? Didn't GOD tell us to "Be Fruitfull, and Multiply"??? How did he want us to DO that, if we couldn't be married in his eyes? Adultry? I don't THINK so!

(I could blast THAT church all day! Not it's members, just the doctrine!)Your right.

Actually, here is what the Bible says about Priests and marriage. Leviticus 21:14-
"He must not marry a widow, a divorced woman, or a woman defiled by prostitution, but only a virgin from his own people."

Says that he can get married, doesn't it? Peter was the one who spoke extensively on why he felt people should not get married.

The Catholic church says that Peter is the rock that their church was built on. They don't even follow most of his teachings. Funny huh?

Jozak

08-17-2004, 08:47 PM

Your right.

Actually, here is what the Bible says about Priests and marriage. Leviticus 21:14-
"He must not marry a widow, a divorced woman, or a woman defiled by prostitution, but only a virgin from his own people."

Says that he can get married, doesn't it? Peter was the one who spoke extensively on why he felt people should not get married.

The Catholic church says that Peter is the rock that their church was built on. They don't even follow most of his teachings. Funny huh?

Your post makes no sense. If Peter explained why Priests and others should not get married, how are we not following his teachings, since priests cannot get married?

But, I think they should be allowed to get married.

Epiphany

08-18-2004, 11:16 AM

Peter didn't teach not to marry, it was merely his personal opinion. I find it amusing that the Catholic church clings to that rather than his important teachings.

gnrm23

08-18-2004, 02:11 PM

gosh, i thought that it was st paul (nee saul of tarsus) who railed against sins of the flesh, counseled against marriage (but, still - "better to marry than to burn"), seemed to wanna "keep women in their place", etc...
~
as to priests marrying, well - they used to be permitted marriage (&/or concubinage, etc...)
clergy from other denominations who are married & convert ot roman catholicism are premitted to remain married...
eastern orthodox married men are permitted to become priests (but not vice versa, i think)...
~
& female clergy - well some of the early christian communities (especially the gnostic christians) practiced strict equality of the sexes, including equal opportunity for filling clergy roles (sometimes filled by lot, with all members of a congregation eligible for roles of priest, deacon, bishop, etc)...

(several american lutheran groups (well, most of 'em --- now organized as ELCA) started ordaining women in the 1970s, & seem to have survived the transition )(well, not according to the missouri & wisconsin synods, hehheh...)

Jozak

08-19-2004, 08:08 AM

Peter didn't teach not to marry, it was merely his personal opinion. I find it amusing that the Catholic church clings to that rather than his important teachings.
I find it amusing how i historically prove you wrong on certain issues, but then the only thing left you have to bitch about the catholic church on is weather or not priests can marry. as i have said, i think they should be allowed, and probably will change with the next pope. any other complaints you would like to put forward on the table? Go on, i know you have a very limited understanding of the historical, biblical, and traditional teachings of the Roman Church, but what do you say we do it, just for spite? Granted, i am in college now so my posts are now going to be more sparatic, random, and shorter, but i will be here, you can bank on that. It's people like you epiphany that make me want to become an apologetic for my religion, and i must say it has forced me to research it extensively, and only further proves my beliefs in the Holy Roman Catholic Church, and Christ.:) I know you are a christain, and i do believe that you will go to heaven like any other one, i just wish you felt the same about your fellow catholic neighbors.

BTW I love Mary :p

Epiphany

08-19-2004, 09:51 AM

Believe or not, in the past, I use to be very defensive about the Catholic religion. When I tranferred from Catholic to Christian school, the people there were very unkind towards the differences between the two religions. After studying for awhile, I found things in the Bible that my old religion had never mentioned before. The switch from Christian grade school to a Lutheran high school was pretty neutral, but after I started attending a Pentecostal church last September, it blew things out of the water. For the first few months I though, "Wow, now none of the other religions have ever pointed all of these biblical truths out." I'm not saying that none of these religions have God,
but, being filled with the holy spirit, as it's a discerner, I can see that much of the mainstream faith doesn't involve complete truth. Granted, there are some historical teachings about the Catholic church that I do not know very well because I have not been in that church since I was a child. But, it greatly disturbes me when my Catholic family cannot tell me why their church doesn't stand firm in certain Biblical teachings. It's not Catholic people I have a problem with, it's just certain doctorine.

I hope things go well for you at college. I must admit, though it might seem odd, I will miss not seeing you around as much.

sweatininthesouth

08-20-2004, 02:53 AM

Peter was the one who spoke extensively on why he felt people should not get married.

Peter was gay. That's why he believed men should not get married.:)

Epiphany

08-22-2004, 11:43 PM

I just don't believe in the false doctorine that the Catholic church teaches. People say that this is what the first church leaders did, but if you look at the Bible, it really isn't. Where is the preaching, teaching, healing, worship, praise, and the signs and wonders whom Jesus said will follow his believers? I don't see this taking place in many churches around the world today. My church has these things but that it because they are true followers of Christ who only teach his message. Not tradition, but the actual words of Christ. Jesus said do not rely on tradition but on the commandments of God. Mass might be pretty, but beauty is vain. "And these signs shall follow".... I'm not seeing it around most parts.

Jozak

08-24-2004, 02:35 AM

I just don't believe in the false doctorine that the Catholic church teaches.
Ive proved on MULTIPLE pages that Catholic doctrine is not false! Weather you choose to accept it or not does not mean it is false. You want to know what is false? The doctrine of sola scriptura, THAT is false.

People say that this is what the first church leaders did, but if you look at the Bible, it really isn't.
Because the bible was not compiled until 393 AD!!! That is almost 400 YEARS AFTER CHRIST. What do you think Early Christians used/did? TRADITIONS!! It's not that hard of a concept.

Where is the preaching, teaching, healing, worship, praise, and the signs and wonders whom Jesus said will follow his believers? I don't see this taking place in many churches around the world today. My church has these things but that it because they are true followers of Christ who only teach his message. Not tradition, but the actual words of Christ.
Are you kidding me? You church is a pathetic comparison to the wonders, miracles, and appirations that are filled in the Catholic Church and it's 1500+ year exsistance. Whom or what is fighting Satan in every earthly conflict with evil, supernatural movie, or historical event? That's right, the Roman Catholic Church--you use the big dog to take care of evil.

Jesus said do not rely on tradition but on the commandments of God. Mass might be pretty, but beauty is vain. "And these signs shall follow".... I'm not seeing it around most parts.
Jesus said never not rely on CHRISTIAN tradition. (He would have been speaking about the Jewish pharassies if he said that.)

The Mass is the most beautifull, honorable, and oldest way of serving Christ, and your jealousy of it is beginning to show.

Epiphany

08-24-2004, 07:16 AM

Ive proved on MULTIPLE pages that Catholic doctrine is not false! Weather you choose to accept it or not does not mean it is false. You want to know what is false? The doctrine of sola scriptura, THAT is false. Actually, you really didn't. You just proved that the Catholic faith teaches more man-made doctorine. Christ tells us that his word is one of our weapons against satan. I am appalled to hear that Catholic church is teaching this message.

Because the bible was not compiled until 393 AD!!! That is almost 400 YEARS AFTER CHRIST. What do you think Early Christians used/did? TRADITIONS!! It's not that hard of a concept. When Christ came a new covenant was made. They did not continue with their traditions found in the old testament. When Peter went out to preach the gospel, he didn't use traditions, he used the word of Christ. Traditions were broken.

Are you kidding me? You church is a pathetic comparison to the wonders, miracles, and appirations that are filled in the Catholic Church and it's 1500+ year exsistance. Whom or what is fighting Satan in every earthly conflict with evil, supernatural movie, or historical event? That's right, the Roman Catholic Church--you use the big dog to take care of evil. My church is a pathetic comparison? Wow.... my church fights satan all the time because all followers of Christ fight satan. My church has the presence and power of God. Wonders and miracles never cease to take place at my church. Testimony, healing, break throughs, revivals. My church is constantly in the act of spreading the gospel. Evangelists, prophets, preachers, teachers, healing, miracles, evidence of the holy ghost... Not because of their own accord, but through Jesus Christ, they are given power in his name. I don't lift up my church just because it's the place I attend. I lift it up because it's a true church of Christ. You want to talk about movies with Catholics? LOL okay, we shall talk about movies. Exorcist was a movie with the Catholic church. In the end, the demon possessed the priest. Take any one of the Jesus's disciples filled his holy spirit. The bible tells us they drove out demons in his name. If the priest in the movie was filled with the holy ghost, that demon would have been gone in the name of Jesus Christ. He wasn't, was he? Nope, he jumped right into the priest. People born again by being baptized in Christ and being filled with he spirit of God wouldn't have been possessed because a true child of God makes satan nervous. The movie was a good account of the own sinful nature of the Catholic chruch. Why is it that the Catholic church is every where you good? Like I said before, it bares a striking resemblance to the one world religion that will dominate the world before Jesus Christ comes back. Sorry, but in the last few years, all I have seen coming from the Catholic church is corruption and deceit.

Jesus said never not rely on CHRISTIAN tradition. (He would have been speaking about the Jewish pharassies if he said that.) Again I say, the Catholic church doesn't even follow direct teachings from Jesus Christ. They cannot even convey his messages. Thet twist things around to make it fit into their traditions. Wolves in sheeps clothing.

The Mass is the most beautifull, honorable, and oldest way of serving Christ, and your jealousy of it is beginning to show.Mass is beautiful, but Jesus came to spread a raw message of salvation, not sugar-coated lies. I see people being restored, re-filled, renewed, replenished, and breaking free of their chains all the time where I am. In the Catholic church I see people sitting on a pew half asleep. So again I will ask you, jealous of what? Sorry but I have the holy ghost, I have been washed clean in the blood of Christ by baptism. I have God working in my life. But when I see false doctorine being spread, I personally get offended by it. It aggravates me to no end that the Catholic church has been filling my family with lies for years and has hardened their hearts to the true message of Christ. I'm sorry that the leaders of this religion have falsely convinced others that a little sprinkle, some bread and wine, a new name of a, "saint", and listening to parables being read is going to get them to Heaven, because no where does Christ say that is the way. Those things that the Catholic church teaches could not be farther from truth.

Jozak

08-25-2004, 09:54 PM

http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/mad.gif Actually, you really didn't. You just proved that the Catholic faith teaches more man-made doctorine. Christ tells us that his word is one of our weapons against satan. I am appalled to hear that Catholic church is teaching this message.
I am appaled at your lack of history and reading comprehension. I swear to god you are the most close minded person on this board, and it's sad. You call yourself a Christian filled with the holy spirit or some fundementalist mumbo jumbo, and bash the Catholic Church every post you make. The "man made doctrines" were used BEFORE THE BIBLE WAS COMPLETED, and taught by the APOSTOLES, SAINTS, MARTYRS, AND EARLY CHURCH FATHERS. HOW HARD IS IT FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND???? You didn't even know when the bible was made or what council it came from!!! GUESS WHAT EPIPHANY--MAN WROTE THE BIBLE, MAN COMPILED THE BIBLE, SO I GUESS YOU HAVE TO REJECT THAT TOO!!!! LOL!!!!!!! Oh brother.....some people.....this is why Christians get a bad wrap, people like you epiphany.

When Christ came a new covenant was made. They did not continue with their traditions found in the old testament. When Peter went out to preach the gospel, he didn't use traditions, he used the word of Christ. Traditions were broken. CAN YOU READ?? WE ARE TALKING ABOUT CHRISTIAN TRADITIONS, USED BEFORE THE BIBLE WAS COMPLETED in 393 Ad!!! You are so blind, you cant even read what i am posting and think about it. But shit, it does not make my any difference to you, I dont know why I am wasting my time trying to explain such a simple concept to a close minded person.

My church is a pathetic comparison? Wow.... my church fights satan all the time because all followers of Christ fight satan. My church has the presence and power of God. Wonders and miracles never cease to take place at my church. Testimony, healing, break throughs, revivals. My church is constantly in the act of spreading the gospel. Evangelists, prophets, preachers, teachers, healing, miracles, evidence of the holy ghost... Not because of their own accord, but through Jesus Christ, they are given power in his name. I don't lift up my church just because it's the place I attend. I lift it up because it's a true church of Christ. You want to talk about movies with Catholics? LOL okay, we shall talk about movies. Exorcist was a movie with the Catholic church. In the end, the demon possessed the priest. Take any one of the Jesus's disciples filled his holy spirit. The bible tells us they drove out demons in his name. If the priest in the movie was filled with the holy ghost, that demon would have been gone in the name of Jesus Christ. He wasn't, was he? Nope, he jumped right into the priest. People born again by being baptized in Christ and being filled with he spirit of God wouldn't have been possessed because a true child of God makes satan nervous. The movie was a good account of the own sinful nature of the Catholic chruch. Why is it that the Catholic church is every where you good? Like I said before, it bares a striking resemblance to the one world religion that will dominate the world before Jesus Christ comes back. Sorry, but in the last few years, all I have seen coming from the Catholic church is corruption and deceit. You cite one movie to refute my statement. Almost every movie where Good fights Satan, who is on the side of good? End of Days, Stigmata, the list goes on and on, and you know its true. They aren't going to get your pentecostal church to do the work, sorry, its just a fact.

Why is it you think the Catholic Church everywhere is bad? THE BIG BAD EVIL CATHOLIC CHURCH--yep, all those evil missionaries, nuns, and priests overseas spreading the gospels in Africa, healing Lepors in India, feeding kids in Latin America--yep, we are such an evil religion.

Again I say, the Catholic church doesn't even follow direct teachings from Jesus Christ. They cannot even convey his messages. Thet twist things around to make it fit into their traditions. Wolves in sheeps clothing.Screw you and your heretical, protestant, narrow minded garbage. Go slap someone on the forehead. I don't get pissed off often, but ill be damned if i sit here and actually listen to this crap.

Mass is beautiful, but Jesus came to spread a raw message of salvation, not sugar-coated lies. I see people being restored, re-filled, renewed, replenished, and breaking free of their chains all the time where I am. In the Catholic church I see people sitting on a pew half asleep. So again I will ask you, jealous of what? Sorry but I have the holy ghost, I have been washed clean in the blood of Christ by baptism. I have God working in my life. But when I see false doctorine being spread, I personally get offended by it. It aggravates me to no end that the Catholic church has been filling my family with lies for years and has hardened their hearts to the true message of Christ. I'm sorry that the leaders of this religion have falsely convinced others that a little sprinkle, some bread and wine, a new name of a, "saint", and listening to parables being read is going to get them to Heaven, because no where does Christ say that is the way. Those things that the Catholic church teaches could not be farther from truth.Its not lies. You want to know what is a lie? YOUR DOCTRINE OF SOLA SCRIPTURA, THAT IS A LIE. DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT THAT IS EPIPHANY? You and your heretical, narrow minded way of thinking is the problem, not your family. Not every Catholic church is boaring, i love going to church. Just becasue we arent rowdy, slapping people in the forehead, and shouting AMEN in the middle of sermon does not make us any less Christians than you, get off your high horse. Meanwhile, I pray your family stays in the Catholic Church if that is what they want, becasue they dont need some wolf like you, who knows NOTHING about Early Church history, Catholic doctrines, or someone who does not even know where her own religion came from, and array of many other things, polluting their minds with false branches of Christianity.

And you know what, I cursed and was not a polite person in this post as I usually am and should have done, I know Christ is not happy with me, but I do not have any Tolerance for intolerant, bigoted, and uneducated people such as yourself.

P.S. I LOVE MARY:$