Facts About Jews for Jesus (my comments in purple)

[vinceneilsgirl]

Jews for Jesus

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Jews for Jesus is an Evangelical organization founded in 1973 by Martin Rosen, also known as Moishe Rosen an ordained Baptist minister, with a goal of converting Jews to Christianity.

Their official mission statement is "to make the messiahship of Jesus an unavoidable issue to our Jewish people worldwide", and the organization claims to be "one of the most extensive evangelistic outreaches to Jewish people in the world today". They have also sent their members as far as Ukraine and Russia.

According to its Executive Director, Jews for Jesus has many non-Jews in administrative and staff positions but deploys "only front-line missionaries who are Jewish or married to Jews". <http://www.jfjonline.org/about/corevalues/core4.htm> However, some of the missionaries identify themselves as Jewish when in fact only their spouse, father, or grandfather is Jewish, and these missionaries would not be considered Jews in most of the communities they evangelize.

Jews for Jesus is rejected as "un-Jewish" by Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist Judaism and by other messianic Jewish groups and by many Christians. Its critics charge that Jews for Jesus is Jewish in name only, due to the organization's lack of Torah observance and a statement of faith indistinguishable from those of other Evangelical para-church groups.

The Interfaith Conference of Metropolitan Washington, an umbrella organization that includes Roman Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran and Presbyterian church groups, has condemned Jews for Jesus as promoting activities "harmful to the spirit of interreligious respect and tolerance". The conference also denounces the group's "deceptive proselytizing efforts", stating that when practiced on "vulnerable populations" such as the young or the elderly, these efforts are "tantamount to coerced conversions". <http://www.adl.org/special_reports/jews4jesus/christian_responses.asp> The Rev. Clark Lobenstine, a Presbyterian minister and executive director of the Conference, has stated that his group condemns Jews for Jesus and other messianic Jewish groups by name because they "go beyond the bounds of appropriate and ethically based religious outreach". <http://www.rickross.com/reference/jews_for_jesus/jews_for_jesus30.html>

The Board of Governors of The Long Island Council of Churches voiced similar sentiments in a statement that "noted with alarm" the "subterfuge and dishonesty" inherent in the "mixing [of] religious symbols in ways which distort their essential meaning", and named Jews for Jesus as one of the three groups about whom such behavior was alleged. <http://www.adl.org/special_reports/jews4jesus/christian_responses.asp>

The Christian Scholars Group on Christian-Jewish Relations, consisting of 22 Christian scholars, theologians, historians and clergy from six Christian Protestant denominations and the Roman Catholic Church, issued a statement in September 2002, "A Sacred Obligation: Rethinking Christian Faith in Relation to Judaism and the Jewish People", offering ten positions "for the consideration of our fellow Christians". Among them the following are listed: "Christians should not target Jews for conversion. Christian worship that teaches contempt for Judaism dishonors God."

The Boca Raton News newspaper wrote in November 2003 article County Jewish organizations protest evangelical attempt <http://www.bocaratonnews.com/index.php?src=news&category=LOCAL%20NEWS&prid=6689>:

"The JCRC (Jewish Community Relations Council) is deeply disturbed and distressed, however, with the practices of these so-called ‘Hebrew Christians’ that demean Judaism by suggesting it is not as valid a faith as that of the proselytizer. These groups have undertaken an aggressive and deceptive campaign of proselytizing to the Jewish community, targeting our most vulnerable members, including the frail elderly and college students, with the intent to convert them to Christianity."

Jews for Jesus defends its actions against these charges, stating:

"If a person believes the Bible and believes that Jesus is the only way of salvation (John 14:6, Acts 4:12, Romans 10:9,10) and then that person declines to tell a Jewish friend about Christ, it indicates one of two things. Either that person has decided that the Jews are not worthy of the gospel, in which case he would be a racist, an anti-Semite and a hater of people instead of the lover of people that God wants him to be. Or perhaps he has judged the gospel as being unworthy of the Jews in which case he has trivialized the passion of Calvary and the awesome significance of Christ's resurrection." [5] http://www.jfjonline.org/about/targeting.htm

Is "Jews for Jesus" a cult?

Most Hebrew/Christian groups, like Jews for Jesus, do not fit the specific definitions of cults. However, many of them use cult-like tactics in their recruitment.

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq_cmi04.html

What characteristics define a cult?

Cults, or more specifically, destructive cults, are characterized by the following differences from mainstream groups:

1. In religious cults the leader is the central focus of belief. In mainstream religions, G-d is the central focus.

2. Cult recruitment includes deception and concealment of identity and requirements of affiliation. Mainstream groups use no deception and new members are fully aware of the teachings and expectations before they make a commitment.

3. Cults use mind-control techniques and forms of hypnosis to indoctrinate followers. Emotional needs are exploited and people are held psychological hostages through peer pressure, guilt, and fear. Mainstream groups do not resort to unethical means to persuade members.

4. Leaders of cults make their own rules and laws which are often contrary to the rules and laws of society. They often reframe criminal acts (cheating, lying, stealing, even murder) as the will of G-d. Mainstream groups uphold and value the laws of society.

5. Cults separate and alienate people from family, friends, and society. Mainstream groups value healthy involvement with family, friends and society. 6. Cults are self-serving, often amassing financial fortunes for the leaders at the expense of the followers. In mainstream groups, leaders serve the people and contribute to the welfare of society in general.

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq_cmi01.html

How do Christians feel about "Jews for Jesus" groups?

A number of sensitive Christians have condemned the deceptions of groups like "Jews for Jesus." Other Christian individuals and groups have been less sensitive to Jewish community concerns, and Christian churches continue to spend over $250 million annually in the United States alone to convert Jews to Christianity. Most of the missionary and conversionary groups are affiliated with Protestant denominations

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq_cmi11.html

Missionary Tactics

A GUIDE TO MISSIONARY TACTICS

This guide is intended to teach you about the tactics used by missionary groups and cults.

The tactics of missionaries and missionary groups may vary, but there are some basic guidelines to keep in mind that will be helpful in dealing with them.

CAMOUFLAGE

Some missionaries attempt to develop a rapport with their subject without divulging their own religious affiliation. If you are not sure about the religious identity of the stranger who begins talking to you about religion, ask him directly if he is a believer in Jesus. Be suspicious of an indirect answer.

Don't be deceived by any outer signs of Jewishness, such as a "Chai" necklace or a Star of David. They are worn to make Jews feel more comfortable by making the speaker seem less "Christian". For the same reason, missionaries are coached by their superiors to avoid using words such as "Christ" or "saved" or "baptize" when speaking to Jews, in order not to arouse suspicion.

ASSUMING SUPERIORITY

When talking to a Jewish person about religion, a missionary may attempt to elicit as many "I don't know" responses as possible, in order to establish his superiority in matters of religion. Don't allow yourself to be intimidated!

Remember, the missionary has studied Jewish beliefs for the sole purpose of leading Jews to Christianity. Keep in mind that he is not speaking to you in order to exchange ideas, but rather to lead you away from your religion. If you want to learn more about the Jewish Bible, do so from someone who doesn't have hidden motives. Therefore, feel free to simply end the conversation and walk away.

However, some of you may want to listen to their arguments and then learn the Jewish response, in order to be better prepared for future encounters. The following pointers should give you a basic idea of what to look for.

DECEPTION

The missionary may tell you that he (or a Christian friend or acquaintance) was once an Orthodox Jew, or that he had a solid Jewish education, a traditional Jewish family life, etc. This is almost always a lie, so don't let him fool you. The hidden message that he is attempting to convey is that he came to believe in Jesus after knowing and overcoming all of the Jewish objections, and therefore, why should you bother to check it out?

He may drop certain Yiddish phrases or talk about the details of his "traditional" Jewish upbringing, in order to lend more credence to his story. In fact, his "memory" is often the result of careful coaching.

Usually, all that is necessary to expose this type of hoax is to ask him about various small details of Jewish life that any observant Jewish child would know, and see how he responds. In almost all cases, he will begin to hedge about the extent of his "background" and "Jewish knowledge". Unfortunately, most Jews are themselves not knowledgeable enough to be able to expose this type of deception.

In the same vein, the missionary might tell you that he knows the Jewish objections to his arguments, and will then proceed to show how such objectives are ill-founded. Don't expect to hear the real Jewish response from such a source.

LOVING US TO DEATH

Don't be taken in by the "good cop - bad cop" routine. This routine involves a "bad cop" who threatens the subject, and a "good cop" who protects him from the "bad cop". The subject is so grateful to the "good cop", and so worried about losing the good-will of his protector, that he invariably shows his appreciation by telling the "good cop" what he wants to hear. In similar fashion, the "good" Christian talks about how much he loves Jews, Israel, bagels and lox, etc., while denouncing the "bad" Christians who hate and persecute Jews. A Jew with any knowledge of Christian anti-Semitism will feel grateful to the "good cop", and may automatically judge him to be a friend and reliable ally. Watch out for hidden motives behind such "friendship".

COVER-UP

At the outset, the missionary will talk about his belief that Jesus is the messiah. Many Jews don't find out until later, often after they have joined a Hebrew-Christian group, that their fundamental belief is that Jesus is G-D. Any talk about "the messiah" or "son of G-D" is merely a cover for that belief, basic to both fundamentalist Christianity and Hebrew-Christians. However, since such a concept is repugnant to most Jews, this most basic belief of Christianity is glossed over as much as possible when missionaries talk to Jews.

THE NUMBERS RACKET

Don't be impressed by the claim that Christians have 50, or 100, or 300 "proofs from the Jewish Bible" that they are correct in their claims about Jesus. As proof after proof is shown to be meaningless, the missionary will hide behind his numbers, as if to say: "Well, we have so many more proofs, what's the difference if you can disprove some of them". He will attempt to "split the difference" with you: "Well, even if half our proofs prove nothing, we still have another 25 or 50, or 150". Remember, all of their proofs can be shown to be untenable. Keep in mind that a faulty point is not worth 50% of a good point, or 25%, or 10%. It is worthless. The simple mathematics are: 50 x 0 = 0, 100 x 0 = 0, 300 x 0 = 0.

CIRCULAR REASONING

Very often, the reasoning used by Christian missionaries is circular. That is, the "proof" only points to Jesus if you believe in him in the first place, and therefore is no proof at all.

Let us take as an example the words of Isaiah 11:2; "And the spirit of the L-rd will rest upon him (the messiah), the spirit of wisdom and understanding...". This verse refers to the messiah, but it does not identify him. The followers of Jesus chose to attribute this verse to him, and it subsequently became one of the "proof-texts" to support the claims of Christianity.

One way to test such verses is as follows: Pick a figure that neither you nor the missionary believes to be the messiah. (It can be George Washington, Reverend Moon, or your great- grandfather.) Then see if the "messianic prophecy" would point to the figure in the eyes of anyone who believed him to be the messiah. If it can be used that way, the verse obviously proves nothing.

MISTRANSLATION

Be aware of the problem of mistranslation. A person who is not familiar with Hebrew (or with the Hebrew text of the Bible) can be lead to accept a mistranslation of the Bible which puts a Christian "twist" on a verse that never had such a meaning in the original. If you can't check it out yourself, talk to a reliable person who can. Remember, it is no coincidence that the Jews of past generations, who were much better versed in the original Hebrew Bible, never had any serious problems refuting Christian missionary arguments.

QUOTING OUT OF CONTEXT

Often a verse will be quoted to you that has been taken entirely out of context. When the entire chapter that contains that verse is read, it becomes clear that: 1) that the verse is not a messianic prophecy, and/or 2) the prophecy could not possibly refer to Jesus.

USE THE PROPER RESOURCES!

Most rabbis spend their time studying the positive aspects of Judaism to teach to their congregants, and therefore may not be familiar with the "curve-ball" approach of missionaries. If you need advice concerning a problem of this sort, get in touch with people who are familiar with the tactics being used and who know how to deal with them.

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/general-tactics.html

So lets see, a group that uses deceit to gather followers. Sounds pretty hateful to me.

[NoahideHiker]

“So lets see, a group that uses deceit to gather followers. Sounds pretty hateful to me.”

Some missionaries have absolutely no shame and will go to any lengths to try and get Jewish souls. There are missionaries in Israel posing as protesters for Gush Katif so they can mix in with the Jewish protesters and then missionize to them. At a time when Israel is divided and on the edge of disaster and these people only care about getting Jewish trophies. Jews for Jesus stand for the total destruction of Judaism.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=86611

[feministhippy]

A Jew for Jesus is a Christian...

It's okay to be a Christian. It's a perfectly good way to live your life.

But if you're a Christian, call you're self a Christian, not a Jew.

[ryupower]

A Jew for Jesus is a Christian...

It's okay to be a Christian. It's a perfectly good way to live your life.

But if you're a Christian, call you're self a Christian, not a Jew.

No, they're Christian Jews. A mix of both. They're just Jews that believe in Y'shua. -It's not a change, but a fulfillment of their belief. Christians don't follow the extra stuff in the old testament, Messianic Jews do.

Y'shua was a Jew. His apostles were all Jews, who were finally there to witness the fulfillment of their scriptures. Or did they, just because they saw him ascend, become Christian?

If a Christian sees a fulfillment of his scriptures, would he automaticly be something else?

A good example of one of those Jews would be Peter:

Acts 10:9-16

The next day, as they went on their journey and drew near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour. 10 Then he became very hungry and wanted to eat; but while they made ready, he fell into a trance 11 and saw heaven opened and an object like a great sheet bound at the four corners, descending to him and let down to the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. 13 And a voice came to him, "Rise, Peter; kill and eat."

14 But Peter said, "Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean."

15 And a voice spoke to him again the second time, "What God has cleansed you must not call common." 16 This was done three times. And the object was taken up into heaven again.


A Christian Omnivore would have said: " Yes, LORD!!! I'll take that food! Yum!! Thank you so much LORD!"

:D

[ryupower]

Jews for Jesus stand for the total destruction of Judaism.


How about a fulfillment of Judaism?

[NoahideHiker]

How about a fulfillment of Judaism?
Judaism is complete and eternal all on it's own. It needs no other religion. Devarim 13 warns us to not follow that which was not taught by the fathers and grandfathers. Christianity (yes Messianics too) follow things outside the bounds of Torah and it's laws. Therefore it will be seperated forever.

And if Messyantics aren't christians how come over 80% of you are Goy christians?

[ryupower]

And if Messyantics aren't christians how come over 80% of you are Goy christians? Huh?

And what do you mean with Judaism not needing another religion? Messianics are Jews who believe that Y'shua's their Messiah prophecied in scripture.

Fulfillment, not change.

[NoahideHiker]

Huh?



And what do you mean with Judaism not needing another religion? Messianics are Jews who believe that Y'shua's their Messiah prophecied in scripture.

Fulfillment, not change.


Jews for Jesus was started by the southern baptists. The baptists! Probably the most anti-Jewish denomination out there. There are nearly a dozen denominations that have messianic churches across America. all under the guise of Jewish shules. The whole messianic church wasn't even started until the 60s and 70s.

Nearly 80% of the messianic movement are not even Jewish. They are GENTILES. If the messianic movement was simply a movement of Judaism that thinks Jesus is the messiah then they wouldn't still think him divine, or as g-d. They would also have at least some under standing of what the Jewish Moshiach would do and be when he comes. Nearly all of which Jesus was not.

When you learn Judaism from Jewish frum Jews things become much clearer than when learned from the baptists. Go to jewfaq.org and start your education about Jews FROM Jews.

[feministhippy]

I find it interesting that the only person who's arguing in favor of them is a Christian. Not an insult, just an observation.

[seamonster66]

A christian who believes everything in the bible literally happened, and that the Earth is 9,000 years old.

[NoahideHiker]

I apologize if i came off a bit harsh. Think of it this way, when a Mormon comes knocking on your door and tells you that there is more to your new testament and the Book of Mormon is the final way and answer. Well that's what Jews and Noahides feel like when christians come along and try to explain how Judaism, after thousands of years is suddenly all wrong.

[drumminmama]

whoo...this is a hot button for me...
the messianic movement is an outgrowth of the Great Awakening (mid 1800s...can't pull the exact years 1820?- 1875, I think) Originally a "Hebrew Christians" concept, it was about pulling the good from Jewish thought into Xtian practice.
Such movements had an upsurge in the Jesus People years of 1966-1976.
Jews for Jesus is strongly funded by the Southern Baptist Convention, although this fluxes, and messianic groups come in many denominations.
Make NO mistake, They Are Xtians, through and through, using evangelical tactics and language.
they use assumed superiority, hidden, or camoflauged claims, deception about who they are and what they believe including lying about an Orthodox past!
they misuse holy texts and use quotes out of context.
Few admit they are Xtian, but instead say believer. (great, I believe in Darwin, Ha Shem and hula hooping. Go away)
They want Right of Return FOR GENTILES, goyschie gentiles.
I'm sorry, but if I were to convert to Islam, I would have NO leg to stand on to be kept in the Jewish fold.
I would be apostate and would have CHOSEN to change my belief system.
IF YOU PROFESS A BELIEF IN JESUS AS A SON OF G-D OR MESSIAH, NO MATTER WHAT INACCURATE NAME YOU USE, YOU ARE XTIAN, NOT A JEW.
In fact, coming in here and using" Yeshua" is insulting. Please refrain from it.

As for my personal opinion, this is what I said after being duped into a messianic "seder" given by a group that was 70 percent gentile:
What Hitler did not do they will finish. They will destroy Judaism by fouling the Torah, destroying the culture by copotation and dilution. This is no more Jewish than Hare Krsna is Xtian.

Hiker, you'd better explain Noahide for the group, too. I have a sketchy definition, but I only heard the term a few years ago.

[ryupower]

[QUOTE=NoahideHiker]Jews for Jesus was started by the southern baptists. The baptists! Probably the most anti-Jewish denomination out there. There are nearly a dozen denominations that have messianic churches across America. all under the guise of Jewish shules. The whole messianic church wasn't even started until the 60s and 70s.
Baptists ain't anti-Jewish, atleast not all of them, in fact, most of them actually love Jews. Like me, and most Christians...
You're G-d's people...
Without you Christianity wouldn't even exist!
You may confuse it with the Catholics, who were kinda anti-jewish in the past (many are still now).

If the messianic movement was simply a movement of Judaism that thinks Jesus is the messiah then they wouldn't still think him divine, or as g-d. They would also have at least some under standing of what the Jewish Moshiach would do and be when he comes. Nearly all of which Jesus was not.
WHAT are you talking about?!
Jesus fulfilled 300 prophecies of the OT! :eek:

[ryupower]

I find it interesting that the only person who's arguing in favor of them is a Christian. Not an insult, just an observation.
Because I know of some. ;)

But by many Orthodox Jews, I'd doubt many here would be in favor here, since that'd be supporting the NT...

Not meant harshly, I don't support the 'Last testament' either! ^^;

[ryupower]

I apologize if i came off a bit harsh. Think of it this way, when a Mormon comes knocking on your door and tells you that there is more to your new testament and the Book of Mormon is the final way and answer. Well that's what Jews and Noahides feel like when christians come along and try to explain how Judaism, after thousands of years is suddenly all wrong.
Judaism ain't wrong.

[ryupower]

whoo...this is a hot button for me...
the messianic movement is an outgrowth of the Great Awakening (mid 1800s...can't pull the exact years 1820?- 1875, I think) Originally a "Hebrew Christians" concept, it was about pulling the good from Jewish thought into Xtian practice.
Such movements had an upsurge in the Jesus People years of 1966-1976.
Jews for Jesus is strongly funded by the Southern Baptist Convention, although this fluxes, and messianic groups come in many denominations.
Make NO mistake, They Are Xtians, through and through, using evangelical tactics and language.
they use assumed superiority, hidden, or camoflauged claims, deception about who they are and what they believe including lying about an Orthodox past!
they misuse holy texts and use quotes out of context.
Few admit they are Xtian, but instead say believer. (great, I believe in Darwin, Ha Shem and hula hooping. Go away)
They want Right of Return FOR GENTILES, goyschie gentiles.
I'm sorry, but if I were to convert to Islam, I would have NO leg to stand on to be kept in the Jewish fold.
I would be apostate and would have CHOSEN to change my belief system.
IF YOU PROFESS A BELIEF IN JESUS AS A SON OF G-D OR MESSIAH, NO MATTER WHAT INACCURATE NAME YOU USE, YOU ARE XTIAN, NOT A JEW.
In fact, coming in here and using" Yeshua" is insulting. Please refrain from it.

As for my personal opinion, this is what I said after being duped into a messianic "seder" given by a group that was 70 percent gentile:
What Hitler did not do they will finish. They will destroy Judaism by fouling the Torah, destroying the culture by copotation and dilution. This is no more Jewish than Hare Krsna is Xtian.

Hiker, you'd better explain Noahide for the group, too. I have a sketchy definition, but I only heard the term a few years ago.

Wow, you really love us Christians, eh? ;)

[drumminmama]

I am saying that messianics are Xtian. If only they were so proud of that fact as you are and admitted it.
Shalom

[ryupower]

I am saying that messianics are Xtian. If only they were so proud of that fact as you are and admitted it.
Shalom
I, personally, think they're more like a cross between both.
I can't really put them in either catagory, to be honest. :eek:

Well, I'm not gonna go nit-picking about if they're Jews or Christians ( or just plainly Christian Jews ).

But one could just concider it a Jewish 'cult', no? :p

JW's are for us Christian cults (since they seem more new-age to us)

[drumminmama]

So, you don't want them, either???? I thought y'all were about converting the world. (or is that the JWs?...I should be nice-- I know a couple cool JWs and cool LDSers)

[JesusDiedForU]

A christian who believes everything in the bible literally happened, and that the Earth is 9,000 years old.
If you were a Christian that did not believe everything in the Bible literally then what kind of Christian would you be?

[cerridwen]

I think we've found a way to over analyze yet another thing....

[Cerberus]

If you were a Christian that did not believe everything in the Bible literally then what kind of Christian would you be?

One who isn't blind?

[JesusDiedForU]

One who isn't blind?
Nope just one of many in the world who deny the Bible and Yeshua. It's a narrow path but it is the right one

[ryupower]

So, you don't want them, either???? I thought y'all were about converting the world. (or is that the JWs?...I should be nice-- I know a couple cool JWs and cool LDSers)
JW is not Christianity. But they claim they are, eventhough they're really worshipping the Devil.

[drumminmama]

wow, you have so many "who isn't Xtian" lines in the sand, but you disagree with ME defending MY faith?
What if i was to say there is no devil? Could your mind wrap around that?

[JesusDiedForU]

wow, you have so many "who isn't Xtian" lines in the sand, but you disagree with ME defending MY faith?
What if i was to say there is no devil? Could your mind wrap around that?
There is no devil? ... yup thats a debate that has never been brought up.......

[ryupower]

wow, you have so many "who isn't Xtian" lines in the sand, but you disagree with ME defending MY faith?
What if i was to say there is no devil? Could your mind wrap around that?
...you're a jew. And you don't believe in the devil?
Then what about Sheol, do you believe in Sheol?

If you look at the dogma of the JW's it contradicts the Bible.

And I suggested that you could call Messianic Jews a cult to, for exactly that reason: We call JWs a cult. Did you skip over that? :p
Eventhough Messianic Jews don't contradict the Tanakh....

[Sephardic-male]

A Summary of Why Jews Should not be Christians
By Keith Kothe

Jesus said the most important commandment is "Hear O'Israel, The L-rd is G-d, The L-rd is One. Christianity says G-d is three.

The Torah says the messiah will gather the dispersed of Israel, Jesus failed to cause the dispersed to be regathered, in fact shortly later Israel was destroyed.

Torah says the messiah will Rebuild the Temple, Jesus proving that he was not the messiah said the Temple would be ground to dust saying not one stone would be left upon another, it was destroyed, however Jesus also failed as a prophet, the western wall still stands to this day. [G. Haas note: not only is the western wall still standing, so are many other sections of the wall around the Temple Mount, so are the steps leading up to the main entrance, so are many other structures such as arches that once supported walkways]

Torah says the messiah will bring Peace to all mankind. Jesus said that I come to bring a sword, each man shall hate his mother and father. Jesus statements are contrary to Torah and Judaism.

Jesus said the "Pharisees and the scribes, (persons who interpret and teach the Oral Torah) sit in the seat of Moses, follow them and do all they say." Paul says forget that, forget circumcision, forget kosher, forget everything that Jesus did and said to do, now the law is done away with.

The Sabbath is the seventh day of the week, Christians say it is the First day of the week, following the pagan customs of the Romans.

Torah says do not follow strange gods that your fathers did not know. The new testament says that Jesus is a god.

Torah says you shall have no other gods beside me. The NT says that Jesus (a god) sits at the right hand of the father. Then there is this holy ghost thing that is also a god.

Human sacrifice is totally against Torah. Further G-d said I am tired of the blood of bulls and goats, I want the sacrifice of the fruit of your lips.

The representation of eating blood and flesh of a human as in the communion act is the very essence of a pagan ritual. Totally repulsive to Torah.

According to Torah the blood sacrifice for sin can only be a goat or a FEMALE lamb. That sacrifice can only pay for unintentional sin, committed by accident. The only means of forgiveness for all other sin if for the person who committed the sin to do Teshuva, to repent and do what is right.

G-d said I make an eternal covenant with Israel, the NT says that covenant is past we now have a new covenant.

Christianity departed from all of G-ds festivals, the ones that even Jesus kept, and instead incorporated a host of pagan festivals with pagan rituals such as A supernatural Elf that brings gifts, Yule logs, Christmas trees, Bunny Rabbits, and Eggs etc.

I could go on, but you get the general Idea. As Rabbi Tovia Singer said, Every thing good in the NT is from the Torah, Every thing new in the NT is not from Torah.

G-d is not a Man, else he would lie. Neither is G-d a Son of Man, else he would change his mind - Numbers 23:19

http://members.aol.com/just1crzyju/jewnotxtian.htm (http://members.aol.com/just1crzyju/jewnotxtian.htm)

[ryupower]

Sorry Saphardic, but I've got my oppinions too:

A Summary of Why Jews Should not be Christians
By Keith Kothe
[QUOTE]
Jesus said the most important commandment is "Hear O'Israel, The L-rd is G-d, The L-rd is One. Christianity says G-d is three. In the Tankh the word 'elohim' was used in the creation story...why us?

The Torah says the messiah will gather the dispersed of Israel, Jesus failed to cause the dispersed to be regathered, in fact shortly later Israel was destroyed. Read Revelation. ;)

Torah says the messiah will Rebuild the Temple, Jesus proving that he was not the messiah said the Temple would be ground to dust saying not one stone would be left upon another, it was destroyed, however Jesus also failed as a prophet, the western wall still stands to this day. [G. Haas note: not only is the western wall still standing, so are many other sections of the wall around the Temple Mount, so are the steps leading up to the main entrance, so are many other structures such as arches that once supported walkways] He did rebuild the temple, do you know where it is?


Torah says the messiah will bring Peace to all mankind. Jesus said that I come to bring a sword, each man shall hate his mother and father. Jesus statements are contrary to Torah and Judaism. Once again,
Revelation.

Jesus said the "Pharisees and the scribes, (persons who interpret and teach the Oral Torah) sit in the seat of Moses, follow them and do all they say." Paul says forget that, forget circumcision, forget kosher, forget everything that Jesus did and said to do, now the law is done away with.
He didn't say forget Jesus. But Paul was referring to the Gentiles, he didn't say this to the Jews..

The Sabbath is the seventh day of the week, Christians say it is the First day of the week, following the pagan customs of the Romans.
hmmm...a week set-up in Germany:

Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thurseday,Friday, Saturday, Sunday.

And in America:

Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday,Thursday, Friday, Satuday
So which one's right?

Torah says do not follow strange gods that your fathers did not know. The new testament says that Jesus is a god. Jesus IS God. Not 'a' God.


Torah says you shall have no other gods beside me. The NT says that Jesus (a god) sits at the right hand of the father. Then there is this holy ghost thing that is also a god. They're one god. And there's ONLY ONE god. And That's G-d of the Tanakh.So you say an egg isn't an egg?

Human sacrifice is totally against Torah. Further G-d said I am tired of the blood of bulls and goats, I want the sacrifice of the fruit of your lips. So...what about Yeshaiya's prophecy concerning this? Was it all wrong? Was Yeshaiya a false prophet? :eek:

The representation of eating blood and flesh of a human as in the communion act is the very essence of a pagan ritual. Totally repulsive to Torah. That wasn't to be taken literal...

According to Torah the blood sacrifice for sin can only be a goat or a FEMALE lamb. That sacrifice can only pay for unintentional sin, committed by accident. The only means of forgiveness for all other sin if for the person who committed the sin to do Teshuva, to repent and do what is right. Leviticus 6:24-7:1

Also the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 25 "Speak to Aaron and to his sons, saying, 'This is the law of the sin offering: In the place where the burnt offering is killed, the sin offering shall be killed before the LORD. It is most holy. 26 The priest who offers it for sin shall eat it. In a holy place it shall be eaten, in the court of the tabernacle of meeting. 27 Everyone who touches its flesh must be holy. And when its blood is sprinkled on any garment, you shall wash that on which it was sprinkled, in a holy place. 28 But the earthen vessel in which it is boiled shall be broken. And if it is boiled in a bronze pot, it shall be both scoured and rinsed in water. 29 All the males among the priests may eat it. It is most holy. 30 But no sin offering from which any of the blood is brought into the tabernacle of meeting, to make atonement in the holy place, shall be eaten. It shall be burned in the fire.

I guess there IS such a thing as a sin offering...


G-d said I make an eternal covenant with Israel, the NT says that covenant is past we now have a new covenant .
Guess Yirmeyah was a false prophet too...

Christianity departed from all of G-ds festivals, the ones that even Jesus kept, and instead incorporated a host of pagan festivals with pagan rituals such as A supernatural Elf that brings gifts, Yule logs, Christmas trees, Bunny Rabbits, and Eggs etc. There are more denominations of Christianity than Catholiscism.
Which is half-pagan, because Constantine wanted to get Pagans in.

G-d is not a Man, else he would lie. Neither is G-d a Son of Man, else he would change his mind - Numbers 23:19
G-d in the Flesh was man. But G-d himself is not man. Y'shua was 100% not man, and 100% man.

[Epiphany]

I am not quite sure how using Yeshua is offensive, considering that it is Jesus's name.

No, I am not a, "christian", by the definition of the man-made institution of religion.

[ryupower]

I am not quite sure how using Yeshua is offensive, considering that it is Jesus's name.

No, I am not a, "christian", by the definition of the man-made institution of religion.
Your just a follower of Christ ! ;)

[drumminmama]

Yeshua is used STRICTLY by Xtains attempting to convert Jews.
And yes HE WAS A FALSE PROPHET. Now PLEASE go back to the Xtain forum. We JEWS do not want you posting conversion attempts and Xtian theological arguments here.

[Epiphany]

First and foremost, my post did not reflect, "conversion", in any way, shape or form. Secondly, I have a right to ask a question on a free speech forum, where I have not broken any of Skip's rules in doing so.

[drumminmama]

Thentry some manners. This forum is not the correct place for debates about Jesus.
anymore than books is the place to discuss sweing patchwork or guitar progressions?
Get it?

[Wetbikerider]

Too bad Hitler did not put all christians,jews,muslims in the same oven.

[Epiphany]

I find it highly disrespectful to receive such hatred when my post did not elude to a pre-conceived notion. The question I asked was on topic and had no traces of a debate or conversion to a,"religion" (Christianity) that I do not even subscribe to. These forums are meant for both questions and discussions. It is quite sad when one cannot question another on their faith without criticism and cynical mind frames. That is the exact reason why stereotyping exists in this world.

Furthermore, I have every right to speak Hebrew if I so choose to, regardless of the fact that I am not of Jewish heritage. It is my God-given right as a human being to speak the language of my preference. I will no longer waste my time on such animosity, judgement, and apparent racism in this branch of the forums... good day.

[drumminmama]

what wearies me is the fact that you claim NOT to be Xtian, but your posts, your signature line and your general logic pattern all point to it. At one point you linked to a church, I believe.
Are you ashamed of what you are?
I'm not asking that you not speak Hebrew. I'm asking that you refrain from a loaded (and incorrect) term while discussing here.
Would the Xtians take it well if I refered to "the dead guy on the stick?"
Prolly not. It would be disrespectful.
Please, you are not Jewish.You could perhaps empathize with how we see the term, but you could never understand it. Use the accepted term when debating here, PLEASE.
Jews for Jesus are seen as a conversion group that specifically feeds on our Torah-loving people who are not well grounded in tradition or identity.
Really, they are the lions attacking the weak in the herd.
Also, the fact that they consider children on Gentile mothers to be Jewish is disturbing. By rabinnic law, they are not. Some synagogues accept them in Judaism, yes, but Orthodoxy does not.

Really read VNG's post. this is our belief, just as the beliefs of Xtains are in trinity, communion, and salvation through a mortal.
If that is what you believe, OK. But don't try to sell it here.
People interested in Xtainity will find the Xtian forum, or one of the zillions on the Web.
THIS is a Judaism discussion area.
Have questions on a haftorah? and aliya? conversion TO Judaism? How to Kosher? redeeming your son from the koen? then you found your place.
Want to discuss Jesus? this isn't it. the repeated Xtian presence is perceived as argumentative.
We do not see, through our centuries of study, that anyone has fulfulled the prophecies of the mosaich.
You, because you want to believe, turn the scriptures in ways NONE of the great scholars did. That is for you to answer to G-d.
Please continue you gymnastics in the Xtain forum.
I will move all future Jesus threads to it.

[ryupower]

Thentry some manners. This forum is not the correct place for debates about Jesus.
anymore than books is the place to discuss sweing patchwork or guitar progressions?
Get it? If it isn't, a bunch of threads here, which were started by Jews, like " Why Jews don't believe in Jesus" should be locked, for debating or even mentioning that name. :rolleyes:

Who does your Tanakh say is the one and only son of G-d?

Not to make you angry or nothin', just askin'. :)

And Yeshua was his original Hebrew name BTW. Not something Christians made up.
The Greeks only changed it to "Jesus". But nontheless, His original name was Y'shua, as recorded in the Hebrew scriptures. ;)

And where did the " And yes, Jesus was a false prophet" thing come from?? we never mentioned Jesus being a prophet. ^_^;

[Wetbikerider]

jews are full of shit so are christians and muslims they all belong to the same klan.

[Libertine]

Fulfillment, not change.

Gotcha! ;)

Remember our discussion a few months back when you kept saying Jesus "changed" the law? And I said, "No, your N.T. Bible said he "fulfilled" it...." and you kept arguing the lost point...

Yeah.... shoe's on the other foot, now. Huh?

And I would think Jews know more about their religion than YOU would.

[ryupower]

Gotcha! ;)

Remember our discussion a few months back when you kept saying Jesus "changed" the law? And I said, "No, your N.T. Bible said he "fulfilled" it...." and you kept arguing the lost point...

Yeah.... shoe's on the other foot, now. Huh?

And I would think Jews know more about their religion than YOU would.
This is not about Judaism or Christianity, but a cross between both.

Yes, shoe's on the other foot.

[Sephardic-male]

Sorry Saphardic, but I've got my oppinions too:

A Summary of Why Jews Should not be Christians
By Keith Kothe
Quote:
Jesus said the most important commandment is "Hear O'Israel, The L-rd is G-d, The L-rd is One. Christianity says G-d is three.
In the Tankh the word 'elohim' was used in the creation story...why us?

Elohim means ruler or judge and can also refer to human rulers and human judges and the us in Genesis is G-d talking with his angels

Quote:
The Torah says the messiah will gather the dispersed of Israel, Jesus failed to cause the dispersed to be regathered, in fact shortly later Israel was destroyed.
Read Revelation. ;)


Jews don't care what the christian greek bible says

Quote:
Torah says the messiah will Rebuild the Temple, Jesus proving that he was not the messiah said the Temple would be ground to dust saying not one stone would be left upon another, it was destroyed, however Jesus also failed as a prophet, the western wall still stands to this day. [G. Haas note: not only is the western wall still standing, so are many other sections of the wall around the Temple Mount, so are the steps leading up to the main entrance, so are many other structures such as arches that once supported walkways]
He did rebuild the temple, do you know where it is?

This is about a PHYSICAL TEMPLE not spiritual crap that christians talked about the temple is still in ruins

Quote:
Torah says the messiah will bring Peace to all mankind. Jesus said that I come to bring a sword, each man shall hate his mother and father. Jesus statements are contrary to Torah and Judaism.
Once again,
Revelation.

I DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT THE CHRISTIAN ANTI-JEWISH BIBLE

Quote:
Jesus said the "Pharisees and the scribes, (persons who interpret and teach the Oral Torah) sit in the seat of Moses, follow them and do all they say." Paul says forget that, forget circumcision, forget kosher, forget everything that Jesus did and said to do, now the law is done away with.

He didn't say forget Jesus. But Paul was referring to the Gentiles, he didn't say this to the Jews..

Paul is a lying SOB /color]
Paul, in his zealot exaltation, admits and justifies, on Jesuitical principles, the preaching of falsehood, and feels really aggrieved that honest men should take exceptions to such mendacious propaganda:

"For if the truth of God hath more abounded [color=red]through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?" (Rom. 3.7)

In a spirit of good-humored naiveté he winks at the flock of Corinthians whom he has hooked into the fold, and admits that he had tricked them:

"Though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved. But be it so: ... nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile." (2 Cor. 12.15-16)

As a "man that striveth for the mastery" (1 Cor. 9.25), Paul expounds to the church leaders the modus operandi of the successful propagandist:

"I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, that I might gain them that are without law. ... I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. And this I do for the gospel's sake" (1 Cor. 9.19-23).

And he admits to the church of Corinth: "I robbed other churches ... to do you service" (2 Cor. 11.8).



Quote:
The Sabbath is the seventh day of the week, Christians say it is the First day of the week, following the pagan customs of the Romans.

hmmm...a week set-up in Germany:

Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thurseday,Friday, Saturday, Sunday.

And in America:

Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday,Thursday, Friday, Satuday
So which one's right?

Sundays is used to be a day which sun gods are worshipped by pre-christian pagans

Quote:
Torah says do not follow strange gods that your fathers did not know. The new testament says that Jesus is a god.
Jesus IS God. Not 'a' God.

then how did he die on a cross if he is G-d?

"For I lift up my hand to heaven and say, as I live forever!" Deuteronomy 32:40. "Have you not known? Have you not heard that the EVERLASTING GOD YHVH, the Creator of the ends of the earth, faints not nor is He weary!?" Isaiah 40:25.

Quote:
Torah says you shall have no other gods beside me. The NT says that Jesus (a god) sits at the right hand of the father. Then there is this holy ghost thing that is also a god.
They're one god. And there's ONLY ONE god. And That's G-d of the Tanakh.So you say an egg isn't an egg?

one does not equal to three

Quote:
Human sacrifice is totally against Torah. Further G-d said I am tired of the blood of bulls and goats, I want the sacrifice of the fruit of your lips.
So...what about Yeshaiya's prophecy concerning this? Was it all wrong? Was Yeshaiya a false prophet? :eek:


yes he is a false prophet

Quote:
The representation of eating blood and flesh of a human as in the communion act is the very essence of a pagan ritual. Totally repulsive to Torah.
That wasn't to be taken literal...

blood drinking in worship literal or otherwise comes from ancient pagan religions http://www.jdstone.org/cr/pages/s_mytho.html

Quote:
According to Torah the blood sacrifice for sin can only be a goat or a FEMALE lamb. That sacrifice can only pay for unintentional sin, committed by accident. The only means of forgiveness for all other sin if for the person who committed the sin to do Teshuva, to repent and do what is right.
Leviticus 6:24-7:1

Also the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 25 "Speak to Aaron and to his sons, saying, 'This is the law of the sin offering: In the place where the burnt offering is killed, the sin offering shall be killed before the LORD. It is most holy. 26 The priest who offers it for sin shall eat it. In a holy place it shall be eaten, in the court of the tabernacle of meeting. 27 Everyone who touches its flesh must be holy. And when its blood is sprinkled on any garment, you shall wash that on which it was sprinkled, in a holy place. 28 But the earthen vessel in which it is boiled shall be broken. And if it is boiled in a bronze pot, it shall be both scoured and rinsed in water. 29 All the males among the priests may eat it. It is most holy. 30 But no sin offering from which any of the blood is brought into the tabernacle of meeting, to make atonement in the holy place, shall be eaten. It shall be burned in the fire.

I guess there IS such a thing as a sin offering...


Jewish means of Atonement

Old Testament means of Atonement for sins

1. Incense

"And Moses said unto Aaron, 'Take a censer, and put fire therein from off the altar,
and put on incense, and go quickly unto the congregation, and make an atonement for them:
for there is wrath gone out from [YHWH]; the plague is begun.' And Aaron took
as Moses commanded, and ran into the midst of the congregation; and, behold, the plague
was begun among the people: and he put on incense, and made an atonement for the people." (Numbers 16:46-47)

2. Money

"The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less than half a shekel, when
they give an offering unto [YHWH], to make an atonement for your souls. And thou shalt
take the atonement money of the children of Israel, and shalt appoint it for the service of the tabernacle of the congregation; that it may be a memorial unto the children of Israel before [YHWH], to make an atonement for your souls." (Exodus 30:15-16)

3. Property/Goods

"We have therefore brought an oblationfor [YHWH], what every man hath gotten, of
jewels of gold, chains, and bracelets, rings, earrings, and tablets, to make an atonement
for our souls before [YHWH]." Numbers 31:50)

4. Blood for [color=#ff0000]unintentional sins

"And [YHWH] spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a
soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of [YHWH] concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them: If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he
hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto [YHWH] for a sin offering.
5. Blood-if bullock or lamb not affordable (unintentional sins)

"And if he be not able to bring a lamb, then he shall bring for his trespass, which he hath committed, two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, unto [YHWH]; one for a sin offering,
and the other for a burnt offering." (Leviticus 5:7)

6. Flour-if turtledoves or pigeons not affordable (unintentional sins)

"But if his means are insufficient for two turtledoves or two young pigeons, then for his offering for that which he has sinned, he shall bring the tenth of an ephahof fine flour for
a sin offering; he shall not put oil on it or place incense on it, for it is a sin offering." (Leviticus 5:11)

What if there was no Temple or Priesthood

7. Prayer
Solomon addresses the subject of the Israelite people being denied access to the temple
in his dedication speech.
"If they return to You with all their heart and with all their soul in the land of their enemies who have taken them captive, and pray to You toward their land which You have given to their fathers, the city which You have chosen, and the house which I have built for Your
name; then hear their prayer and their supplication in heaven Your dwelling place, and maintain their cause, and forgive Your people who have sinned against You and all their transgressions which they have transgressed against You..." (I Kings 8:46-50)

More Prayer

"And if My people who are called by My name humble themselves and pray, and seek
My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, will forgive their
sin, and will heal their land." (II Chronicles 7:14).

"And listen to the supplications of Your servant and of Your people Israel, when they
pray toward this place; hear from heaven Your dwelling place, hear and forgive." (II Chronicles 6:21)

8. Nothing-Just because God is merciful (my favourite)

"You have not brought Me sheep of your burnt offerings...or the fat of your sacrifices,
but you have burdened Me with your sins...Nevertheless, I will wipe out your
transgressions for My name sake, and I will not remember your sins." (Isaiah 43:23-25)

9. Turning from evil ways

"That every man will turn from his evil way, then I will forgive their iniquity and their
sin." (Jeremiah 36:3)

"Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts, and let him return to [YHWH], and He will have compassion on him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon." (Isaiah 55:7)

Remember the story of Jonah? He was sent to the evil city of Nineveh to warn them of
their impending destruction. Jonah does not come into the city and tell the people that
unless they begin offering sacrifices they are doomed. No! He warns them to repent.
Their response to his warnings is: they fast, pray, and turn from their evil. What is our CREATOR's response to their repentance?

"When God saw their deeds that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them, and He did
not do it." (Jonah 3:10).

How did Daniel advise king Nebuchadnezzar to atone for his sins?
"Therefore, O king, may my advice be pleasing to you: Redeem your sins by doing righteousness, and your iniquities by showing mercy to the poor." (Daniel 4:27).

Neither Ninevah or Nebuchadnezzar were part of Israel, Ninevah was the capital of
Assyria and Nebuchadnezzar was the King of Babylon.

After the ten northern tribes split away from Judah, a civil war prevented most of Israel
from Temple worship. The prophet Hosea addressed this situation and instructed the people accordingly:
"Return, O Israel, to [YHWH] your God, For you have stumbled because of your iniquity. Take words with you and return to [YHWH]. Say to Him, 'Take away all iniquity, and
receive us graciously, for we will render as bullocks the offerings of our lips'." (Hosea 14:1-2)

Incense, Flour, Prayer, Repentance, Money, Goods & Gods Mercy have nothing to do with blood yet were all acceptable to God to atone for sins.




Quote:
G-d said I make an eternal covenant with Israel, the NT says that covenant is past we now have a new covenant
.
Guess Yirmeyah was a false prophet too...


He is a false prophet none of his prophecies came true

Quote:
Christianity departed from all of G-ds festivals, the ones that even Jesus kept, and instead incorporated a host of pagan festivals with pagan rituals such as A supernatural Elf that brings gifts, Yule logs, Christmas trees, Bunny Rabbits, and Eggs etc.
There are more denominations of Christianity than Catholiscism.
Which is half-pagan, because Constantine wanted to get Pagans in.

[color=blue] the belief that a man born of a virgin and have a god as a father who died for your sins is pagan. Christianity is pagan

Quote:
G-d is not a Man, else he would lie. Neither is G-d a Son of Man, else he would change his mind - Numbers 23:19

G-d in the Flesh was man. But G-d himself is not man. Y'shua was 100% not man, and 100% man.


you cannot be both G-d and Man that is impossible ancient kings call themselves gods Jesus was not no different and take your crap to the Christianity forum

[ryupower]

Elohim means ruler or judge and can also refer to human rulers and human judges and the us in Genesis is G-d talking with his angels So we're made in the image of angels.

Quote:
The Torah says the messiah will gather the dispersed of Israel, Jesus failed to cause the dispersed to be regathered, in fact shortly later Israel was destroyed.
Read Revelation.


Jews don't care what the christian greek bible says Well, you're quoting everything else.

Quote:
Torah says the messiah will Rebuild the Temple, Jesus proving that he was not the messiah said the Temple would be ground to dust saying not one stone would be left upon another, it was destroyed, however Jesus also failed as a prophet, the western wall still stands to this day. [G. Haas note: not only is the western wall still standing, so are many other sections of the wall around the Temple Mount, so are the steps leading up to the main entrance, so are many other structures such as arches that once supported walkways]
He did rebuild the temple, do you know where it is?

This is about a PHYSICAL TEMPLE not spiritual crap that christians talked about the temple is still in ruins
Here's a thing you may need to know of: There will be a rebuilt of the temple (where a mosque is on now), in the really close future, probably within the next 7 years, and the guy will try to unite the World. He will be a powerful ruler and have Israel sign a peace treaty. He'll claim to be your Messiah, but he's a false Messiah. Just so you know. He'll be the antichrist. So if you see these signs remember that he's not Messiah.

Quote:
Torah says the messiah will bring Peace to all mankind. Jesus said that I come to bring a sword, each man shall hate his mother and father. Jesus statements are contrary to Torah and Judaism.
Once again,
Revelation.

I DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT THE CHRISTIAN ANTI-JEWISH BIBLE


Mashal 4:24
24 Put away from you a deceitful mouth ,
And put perverse lips far from you.

^ ever read that verse?

Quote:
Jesus said the "Pharisees and the scribes, (persons who interpret and teach the Oral Torah) sit in the seat of Moses, follow them and do all they say." Paul says forget that, forget circumcision, forget kosher, forget everything that Jesus did and said to do, now the law is done away with.

He didn't say forget Jesus. But Paul was referring to the Gentiles, he didn't say this to the Jews..

Paul is a lying SOB /color]
Paul, in his zealot exaltation, admits and justifies, on Jesuitical principles, the preaching of falsehood, and feels really aggrieved that honest men should take exceptions to such mendacious propaganda:

"For if the truth of God hath more abounded [color=red]through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?" (Rom. 3.7)

In a spirit of good-humored naiveté he winks at the flock of Corinthians whom he has hooked into the fold, and admits that he had tricked them:

"Though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved. But be it so: ... nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile." (2 Cor. 12.15-16)

As a "man that striveth for the mastery" (1 Cor. 9.25), Paul expounds to the church leaders the modus operandi of the successful propagandist:

"I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, that I might gain them that are without law. ... I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. And this I do for the gospel's sake" (1 Cor. 9.19-23).

And he admits to the church of Corinth: "I robbed other churches ... to do you service" (2 Cor. 11.8).
Wow, good quotes.


Sundays is used to be a day which sun gods are worshipped by pre-christian pagans

I think this refers more to the seven days thing. ^^;

Quote:
Torah says do not follow strange gods that your fathers did not know. The new testament says that Jesus is a god.
Jesus IS God. Not 'a' God.

then how did he die on a cross if he is G-d?

"For I lift up my hand to heaven and say, as I live forever!" Deuteronomy 32:40. "Have you not known? Have you not heard that the EVERLASTING GOD YHVH, the Creator of the ends of the earth, faints not nor is He weary!?" Isaiah 40:25.
Oh, Jesus is very alive. He died...and rose again! ^^
Quote:
Torah says you shall have no other gods beside me. The NT says that Jesus (a god) sits at the right hand of the father. Then there is this holy ghost thing that is also a god.
They're one god. And there's ONLY ONE god. And That's G-d of the Tanakh.So you say an egg isn't an egg?

one does not equal to three. So yes, you are saying an egg isn't an egg....
And we're not humans either, right? I mean...we've got a flesh, a soul, and
a spirit... so how can we still be one creature?

Quote:
Human sacrifice is totally against Torah. Further G-d said I am tired of the blood of bulls and goats, I want the sacrifice of the fruit of your lips.
So...what about Yeshaiya's prophecy concerning this? Was it all wrong? Was Yeshaiya a false prophet?

yes he is a false prophet

If he was a false prophet, why do you quote him? I said Yeshaiya, not Yeshua. Yeshaiya: Isaiah.

So you're saying Isaiah's a false prophet?


blood drinking in worship literal or otherwise comes from ancient pagan religions http://www.jdstone.org/cr/pages/s_mytho.html
Jesus was a Jew.



I guess there IS such a thing as a sin offering...


Jewish means of Atonement

Old Testament means of Atonement for sins

1. Incense

"And Moses said unto Aaron, 'Take a censer, and put fire therein from off the altar,
and put on incense, and go quickly unto the congregation, and make an atonement for them:
for there is wrath gone out from [YHWH]; the plague is begun.' And Aaron took
as Moses commanded, and ran into the midst of the congregation; and, behold, the plague
was begun among the people: and he put on incense, and made an atonement for the people." (Numbers 16:46-47)

2. Money

"The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less than half a shekel, when
they give an offering unto [YHWH], to make an atonement for your souls. And thou shalt
take the atonement money of the children of Israel, and shalt appoint it for the service of the tabernacle of the congregation; that it may be a memorial unto the children of Israel before [YHWH], to make an atonement for your souls." (Exodus 30:15-16)

3. Property/Goods

"We have therefore brought an oblationfor [YHWH], what every man hath gotten, of
jewels of gold, chains, and bracelets, rings, earrings, and tablets, to make an atonement
for our souls before [YHWH]." Numbers 31:50)

4. Blood for [color=#ff0000]unintentional sins

"And [YHWH] spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a
soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of [YHWH] concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them: If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he
hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto [YHWH] for a sin offering.
5. Blood-if bullock or lamb not affordable (unintentional sins)

"And if he be not able to bring a lamb, then he shall bring for his trespass, which he hath committed, two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, unto [YHWH]; one for a sin offering,
and the other for a burnt offering." (Leviticus 5:7)

6. Flour-if turtledoves or pigeons not affordable (unintentional sins)

"But if his means are insufficient for two turtledoves or two young pigeons, then for his offering for that which he has sinned, he shall bring the tenth of an ephahof fine flour for
a sin offering; he shall not put oil on it or place incense on it, for it is a sin offering." (Leviticus 5:11)

What if there was no Temple or Priesthood

7. Prayer
Solomon addresses the subject of the Israelite people being denied access to the temple
in his dedication speech.
"If they return to You with all their heart and with all their soul in the land of their enemies who have taken them captive, and pray to You toward their land which You have given to their fathers, the city which You have chosen, and the house which I have built for Your
name; then hear their prayer and their supplication in heaven Your dwelling place, and maintain their cause, and forgive Your people who have sinned against You and all their transgressions which they have transgressed against You..." (I Kings 8:46-50)

More Prayer

"And if My people who are called by My name humble themselves and pray, and seek
My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, will forgive their
sin, and will heal their land." (II Chronicles 7:14).

"And listen to the supplications of Your servant and of Your people Israel, when they
pray toward this place; hear from heaven Your dwelling place, hear and forgive." (II Chronicles 6:21)

8. Nothing-Just because God is merciful (my favourite)

"You have not brought Me sheep of your burnt offerings...or the fat of your sacrifices,
but you have burdened Me with your sins...Nevertheless, I will wipe out your
transgressions for My name sake, and I will not remember your sins." (Isaiah 43:23-25)

9. Turning from evil ways

"That every man will turn from his evil way, then I will forgive their iniquity and their
sin." (Jeremiah 36:3)

"Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts, and let him return to [YHWH], and He will have compassion on him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon." (Isaiah 55:7)

Remember the story of Jonah? He was sent to the evil city of Nineveh to warn them of
their impending destruction. Jonah does not come into the city and tell the people that
unless they begin offering sacrifices they are doomed. No! He warns them to repent.
Their response to his warnings is: they fast, pray, and turn from their evil. What is our CREATOR's response to their repentance?

"When God saw their deeds that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them, and He did
not do it." (Jonah 3:10).

How did Daniel advise king Nebuchadnezzar to atone for his sins?
"Therefore, O king, may my advice be pleasing to you: Redeem your sins by doing righteousness, and your iniquities by showing mercy to the poor." (Daniel 4:27).

Neither Ninevah or Nebuchadnezzar were part of Israel, Ninevah was the capital of
Assyria and Nebuchadnezzar was the King of Babylon.

After the ten northern tribes split away from Judah, a civil war prevented most of Israel
from Temple worship. The prophet Hosea addressed this situation and instructed the people accordingly:
"Return, O Israel, to [YHWH] your God, For you have stumbled because of your iniquity. Take words with you and return to [YHWH]. Say to Him, 'Take away all iniquity, and
receive us graciously, for we will render as bullocks the offerings of our lips'." (Hosea 14:1-2)

Incense, Flour, Prayer, Repentance, Money, Goods & Gods Mercy have nothing to do with blood yet were all acceptable to God to atone for sins. Good post.

Quote:
G-d said I make an eternal covenant with Israel, the NT says that covenant is past we now have a new covenant
.
Guess Yirmeyah was a false prophet too...
He is a false prophet none of his prophecies came true Then why do you quote him as well? :eek::
You put:
"That every man will turn from his evil way, then I will forgive their iniquity and their
sin." (Jeremiah 36:3)

So that cannot be concidered valid.



Quote:
Christianity departed from all of G-ds festivals, the ones that even Jesus kept, and instead incorporated a host of pagan festivals with pagan rituals such as A supernatural Elf that brings gifts, Yule logs, Christmas trees, Bunny Rabbits, and Eggs etc.
There are more denominations of Christianity than Catholiscism.
Which is half-pagan, because Constantine wanted to get Pagans in.

[color=blue] the belief that a man born of a virgin and have a god as a father who died for your sins is pagan. Christianity is pagan No BC religion I know of teaches that.


Quote:
G-d is not a Man, else he would lie. Neither is G-d a Son of Man, else he would change his mind - Numbers 23:19

G-d in the Flesh was man. But G-d himself is not man. Y'shua was 100% not man, and 100% man.


you cannot be both G-d and Man that is impossible ancient kings call themselves gods Jesus was not no different and take your crap to the Christianity forum[/QUOTE]
I'm just answering the Thread! I see you're very nice! :p

It's a tough cocept, but one needs to understand the whole thing first. Before making such claims. :)

[vinceneilsgirl]

Jews for Jesus was started by the southern baptists. The baptists! Probably the most anti-Jewish denomination out there. There are nearly a dozen denominations that have messianic churches across America. all under the guise of Jewish shules. The whole messianic church wasn't even started until the 60s and 70s.

Nearly 80% of the messianic movement are not even Jewish. They are GENTILES. If the messianic movement was simply a movement of Judaism that thinks Jesus is the messiah then they wouldn't still think him divine, or as g-d. They would also have at least some under standing of what the Jewish Moshiach would do and be when he comes. Nearly all of which Jesus was not.

When you learn Judaism from Jewish frum Jews things become much clearer than when learned from the baptists. Go to jewfaq.org and start your education about Jews FROM Jews.
Exactly!

[vinceneilsgirl]

Wow, you really love us Christians, eh? ;)
Ummm...how is pointing out the facts about Judaism being hateful toward Xtians?

[feministhippy]

Can you just lock this thread? Since no one will just accept that we're different religions and different religions have different rules and additudes, there's no way this will be settled civilly.

[ryupower]

Ummm...how is pointing out the facts about Judaism being hateful toward Xtians? I was specifically talking to my fellow veggie DrumminMama (sp? sorry *is stupid*). :)

[comeonnow1]

If you go to Moishe Rosen's official site, you'll see that he's a disgusting, fat pig who sits in a wheel chair though he's 11 years younger than my father. His group sucked my friend in who now has no contact with his family or friends. He works 14 hours a day for JFJ so this pig can sit around in a wheelchair with glutton-induced diabetes. If praying to Jesus can help anyone, surely it'd help this loser. Surely jesus could help him stop eating like a hog and walk again! Check out his site. When I think of my friend working 14 hours a day for this pig, i could scream. I only hope he escapes from their grip someday.