Satya Sai Baba

[nephthys]

I would be interested to know what people here think of this amusing and strange figure.

[Bhaskar]

Having seen baba and witnessed the greatness of his powers I can honestly say I think him to be a great realised master, a wonderful teacher and God incarnate.

My own experience with baba is strange, for he had no physical proximity when the miracle I witnessed took place. My mothers aunt, a sanyasin herself, Swamini Nishtananda, had undergone surgery in her hand, but it didnt heal properly, forming some kind of kila (if thats the right term, Im not sure) it was a blue green growth near the place where the incision was made. It was so painful she couldnt use her hand at all. Sitting in Sidhabari,the Tapovan ashram, in the heart of the sandeepany himalayas, she applied some of Sai Baba's healing vibhuti, which her friend had given her. Overnight the growth just fell off and she was completely cured.

Baba is a wonderful person (though he is far more than just a mere person) and he has a very very strong aura, a great wealth of love and spiritual energy to give.

I am actually headed to puttaparthi in july, so Ill have more of a direct experience with bhagawan and I will com back tell you about it!

hari om!

thy own self,

Bhaskar

[BlackBillBlake]

I have heard that he stands accused of sexually abusing children. Perhaps it's true.

[Bhaskar]

Actually thats just some bullshit rumour. Im not one to be taken in by fakers. Ive actualyl caught out a couple in my time. There are fools to say anything. See and judge for yourself. Dont spread such rumours without any proof.

Baba is accepted by scholars all over India. His miracles are extraordinary, thy often occur inhis absence, from across the country and on many occasions across the world. Some things are beyond trickery.

[Jedi]

Actually thats just some bullshit rumour. Im not one to be taken in by fakers. Ive actualyl caught out a couple in my time. There are fools to say anything. See and judge for yourself. Dont spread such rumours without any proof.

Baba is accepted by scholars all over India. His miracles are extraordinary, thy often occur inhis absence, from across the country and on many occasions across the world. Some things are beyond trickery.Yes, he is a great person- greater than any of us thats for sure, but not greater than God. Calling oneself greater than God or calling oneself "God" is not only false, but also an offense to himself and to others. I am sure he is not capable of offending any of us though, however calling oneself God is wrong. God is God, and you are you, you cannot be God, except for God.

[Cryptoman]

Just my two cents, but aren't we all just an extension of God. To assume that we are not implies a separateness. Saying that one is greater than God may be inaccurate (because a part can not be more than the whole) and egocentric, but did he ever say that he was "greater than God" I hadn't heard that. Anyway...can a part be equal to the whole? I believe so...If the separation from the god source that binds virtually everyone to this physical 3-d world of separation does not exist for him then he would realize his vastness and of course be equal to that of the whole (God).

Peace and Love

[ChiefCowpie]

we are all God

[Bhaskar]

Yes, he is a great person- greater than any of us thats for sure, but not greater than God. Calling oneself greater than God or calling oneself "God" is not only false, but also an offense to himself and to others. I am sure he is not capable of offending any of us though, however calling oneself God is wrong.
My beloved Jedi,

Hari Om!

First of all, Sai Baba never ever said I am greater than God. In fact a reporter once asked him if he is god. The answer - You are also God. The difference is, I have understood it, you havent.

God is God, and you are you, you cannot be God, except for God
What have you studied in Hinduism! What do the vedas ad the bhagawad geeta and every single holy text teach!!!

tat twam eva twam eva tat! - Your that, that is you!

aham bramhasmi - I am Bramhan

The entire essence of Hinduism, the teachigns of Sankara, of Shiva, of Krishna, Vasishta, Rama, every great guru in history is that you are divine, that is your true nature1 You are God, one without the other, infinite, complete, pure, you are bramhan, you are that, tat twam asi.

I am sorry to say that if you say you cannot be god, then you have understood absolutely nothing of the Hindu philosophy.

[BlackBillBlake]

Actually thats just some bullshit rumour. Im not one to be taken in by fakers. Ive actualyl caught out a couple in my time. There are fools to say anything. See and judge for yourself. Dont spread such rumours without any proof.

Baba is accepted by scholars all over India. His miracles are extraordinary, thy often occur inhis absence, from across the country and on many occasions across the world. Some things are beyond trickery.
Perhaps you are right, but do you have any proof he wasn't a child abuser?

[Chodpa]

I know one of his abused. He is the worst sort of cultish figure, and not to be trusted.

[Bhaskar]

Blackbill, if you walk through life assuming that all those you meet are child abusers unless there is otherwise evidence, then Im afraid that is your trouble.

And chodpa, youre entitled to your views, but I am afraid I dont believe you or your friend. You only have to listen to his words and observe the things he does. They talk for themselves. He is not a cultish figure at all. He does the miracles because he is leading his followers on the bhakti marga, were unwavering faith in the guru and ishta is absolutely essential, in order to inspire this faith baba makes miracles. You only have ot read his books and his teachings and you will find that his words are sheer advaita vedanta. Baba has cured many whom I know, family, friends and relatives.

To those who dispute the legitimacy of his miracles, do tell, how would picture of baba, taken and developed by a devotee who has never even met him, never even touched or handled by him, suddenly starts giving forth streams of vibhuti with healing qualities.... How does he multily food...how did he bring the 2 men who were certified dead to life... in the case of Krishnamurthy, he was dead for a week, the body started to decay and stink and then baba went into the room and man came out walking, alive and well. These are not the works of a mere mortal. Baba is a realised soul, a great yugaurusha, a mahatma. He is god. And he knows it.

[BlackBillBlake]

Blackbill, if you walk through life assuming that all those you meet are child abusers unless there is otherwise evidence, then Im afraid that is your trouble.

And chodpa, youre entitled to your views, but I am afraid I dont believe you or your friend. You only have to listen to his words and observe the things he does. They talk for themselves. He is not a cultish figure at all. He does the miracles because he is leading his followers on the bhakti marga, were unwavering faith in the guru and ishta is absolutely essential, in order to inspire this faith baba makes miracles. You only have ot read his books and his teachings and you will find that his words are sheer advaita vedanta. Baba has cured many whom I know, family, friends and relatives.

To those who dispute the legitimacy of his miracles, do tell, how would picture of baba, taken and developed by a devotee who has never even met him, never even touched or handled by him, suddenly starts giving forth streams of vibhuti with healing qualities.... How does he multily food...how did he bring the 2 men who were certified dead to life... in the case of Krishnamurthy, he was dead for a week, the body started to decay and stink and then baba went into the room and man came out walking, alive and well. These are not the works of a mere mortal. Baba is a realised soul, a great yugaurusha, a mahatma. He is god. And he knows it.
Tonight in the UK bbc are screening a documentary about Sai Baba's alleged misdeeds. So perhaps there may be more info on this at BBc.co.uk.

I am not assuming he is a child abuser on no evidence, there are in fact a number of people who claim they were abused. And the 'miracles' have all the hallmarks of cheap conjouring tricks. Nor am I ignorant of SB's work, I'm just not very impressed.

[Jedi]

My beloved Jedi,

Hari Om!

First of all, Sai Baba never ever said I am greater than God. In fact a reporter once asked him if he is god. The answer - You are also God. The difference is, I have understood it, you havent.


What have you studied in Hinduism! What do the vedas ad the bhagawad geeta and every single holy text teach!!!

tat twam eva twam eva tat! - Your that, that is you!

aham bramhasmi - I am Bramhan

The entire essence of Hinduism, the teachigns of Sankara, of Shiva, of Krishna, Vasishta, Rama, every great guru in history is that you are divine, that is your true nature1 You are God, one without the other, infinite, complete, pure, you are bramhan, you are that, tat twam asi.

I am sorry to say that if you say you cannot be god, then you have understood absolutely nothing of the Hindu philosophy.I know alot about hinduism and it is very good in teaching us the truth. It teaches us that if the supreme is the ocean, we are nothing but a drop and also warns us that if we should not mistaken ourselves into giving ourselves away to maya whether that is considering yourself the ocean or considering that the ocean does not exist in the first place. Brahman is you, Bhagavan is more than Brahman.

[Bhaskar]

I know alot about hinduism and it is very good in teaching us the truth. It teaches us that if the supreme is the ocean, we are nothing but a drop and also warns us that if we should not mistaken ourselves into giving ourselves away to maya whether that is considering yourself the ocean or considering that the ocean does not exist in the first place. Brahman is you, Bhagavan is more than Brahman.I am sorry, you have misunderstood. Bramhan is you, bramhan is bhagawan. Of course I do see that there are several schools of vedanta, some say that you are a drop in the ocean, others say you are the ocean itself. But the end point of it is, there is only one. That is what advaita means. non duality. Which means that there are no divisions. There is but one, no separation as bhagawan and bramhan and jeeva. these are just words, the distinction caused by maya. This is the school of thought of Adi Shankaracharya.

[Bhaskar]

Tonight in the UK bbc are screening a documentary about Sai Baba's alleged misdeeds. So perhaps there may be more info on this at BBc.co.uk.

I am not assuming he is a child abuser on no evidence, there are in fact a number of people who claim they were abused. And the 'miracles' have all the hallmarks of cheap conjouring tricks. Nor am I ignorant of SB's work, I'm just not very impressed.
Ok, I wont be drawn into argument here, it is pointless. I started as a cynic myself, but my experiences with baba are sufficient to convince me of his greatness and legitimacy.

Also kindly note, none of the great realised masters of our time, none of the great gurus and spiritual leaders ever disputed his greatness. It is only those of us who have a narrower vision who make such statements.

And tell me, which magician in the world can make a lamp light up in a strangers house, in front of a picture which was not there, from the other end of the country...

This is the experience of a close friend. She knew nothing much of baba. One day she had just finished her evening pooja, waved out the lamp and had turned to leave the room when the lamp lt up again. She turned and found the lamp burning in front of a picture of baba, a picture that had never been there before. Baba stays only in puttaparthi or whitefield, both in the south of india. This happened in Delhi.

[BlackBillBlake]

Not only is Baba accused by many ex-devotees of sexual abuse, but it seems his 'miracles' can be easily replicated by any competent stage magician.


As for me being a skeptic, just let me assure you that I do believe in a spiritual power, even that certain teachers may well be worth paying attention to - I just don't think SB is one of them. Other gurus have fallen from their positions - it seems that in the case of SB his position ensures that the Indian authorities will not do any proper investigation into the alleged abuses.

Having now sat through an hour long tv documentary on all this, and seen and heard one of Baba's victims tell his story, I am more convinced than ever that he is a phoney - ie he is not an avatar, not a divine being, but a charlatan.

Unless of course you are happy with a god who has a big appetite for sex with underage boys.

[Jedi]

Just my two cents, but aren't we all just an extension of God. To assume that we are not implies a separateness. Saying that one is greater than God may be inaccurate (because a part can not be more than the whole) and egocentric, but did he ever say that he was "greater than God" I hadn't heard that. Anyway...can a part be equal to the whole? I believe so...If the separation from the god source that binds virtually everyone to this physical 3-d world of separation does not exist for him then he would realize his vastness and of course be equal to that of the whole (God).

Peace and Love
In my thinking, if you say you are God, then you are so egocentric, that you can make yourself superior to God in your thinking somewhere "deep down there" in your thinking, and I can't accept that.

The essence of advaita, dvaita and vishista-advaita is to be with God, whether it is letting He alone exist , with making yourself not "exist" or whether it is trying to reach Him as well as keeping yourself in existence in a type of eternal Bhagavan-bhakth relationship with Him . In either case, it is to be with God.

When some one is God realized and if you call that person "God", it is not only inaccurate but also very offensive both to the person and to God.

[Bhaskar]

Im sorry jedi, but you have not understood advaita one bit. When one is god realised, it means he has realsied his true identity, as being one with god, there is no disnction for him. He sees himself everywhere and in everything. The very fact that you think such mahatmas can ever be offended, or that God can be offended, or insulted, shows you havent grasped the philosophy at all. All insult, all offence, is only at the level of intellect, the ego level, rooted in the notion that I am this body and I am this mind. A god realised soul has risen above these delusions, therefore he knows no insults.

Of course this is not a license for us to go about calling them names, for our purposes we must respect and worship such mahatmas. Referring to them as god, not wrong.

matru devo bhava
pitru devo bhava
acharya devo bhava
atithi devo bhava

these are lines form the taittriya upanishad. loosely translated, it means be one to whom the mother, father, guru and guests are seen as god.

We are all avatars. Tat twam asi.

[Jedi]

Im sorry jedi, but you have not understood advaita one bit. When one is god realised, it means he has realsied his true identity, as being one with god, there is no disnction for him. He sees himself everywhere and in everything. The very fact that you think such mahatmas can ever be offended, or that God can be offended, or insulted, shows you havent grasped the philosophy at all. All insult, all offence, is only at the level of intellect, the ego level, rooted in the notion that I am this body and I am this mind. A god realised soul has risen above these delusions, therefore he knows no insults.

Of course this is not a license for us to go about calling them names, for our purposes we must respect and worship such mahatmas. Referring to them as god, not wrong.

matru devo bhava
pitru devo bhava
acharya devo bhava
atithi devo bhava

these are lines form the taittriya upanishad. loosely translated, it means be one to whom the mother, father, guru and guests are seen as god.

We are all avatars. Tat twam asi.May be I am wrong, or may be its just another perspective of the same reality :) , anyway I am not 'enlightened' enough to say one thing is wrong and one is not, however, I know this for sure: No matter on what path we are, through our self effort, we can achieve that which is the supreme and reach the same conclusion of our path at some point. :)

[Bhaskar]

May be I am wrong, or may be its just another perspective of the same reality :) , anyway I am not 'enlightened' enough to say one thing is wrong and one is not, however, I know this for sure: No matter on what path we are, through our self effort, we can achieve that which is the supreme and reach the same conclusion of our path at some point. :)
Very true, haha! I have nothing against a different ideology, but do understand that what the vedas teach is not what you are saying.

[Alano]

Since someone wants to know, I post important information - a warning!
The BBC film 'Secret Swami', shown to an audience of millions in Britain on June 17th, will eventually be seen on BBC World in over 225 million homes in over 200 countries. It is a gripping documentary masterpiece, rated pick of the week by all UK national newspapers. Read the UK Press reviews below summary:
The film reveals the experiences of a former long-term devotee family whose lives were ruined for many years by Sai Baba's most despicable and threatening paedophile sexual abuse of their son. One must see this to understand the authenticity of the accounts of this family and another ex-devotee who was pressured into oral sex in 1976 by this pervert God.

Sathya Sai Baba is a visibly a broken man who collapsed after the trial of his transparent faking under the cameras. Even so, the BBC could only show a tiny fraction of the film footage with Sai-abused young men etc. they took. After this film not a shadow of doubt that Sai Baba faked the "miracle" of the lingodbhava (very clear footage shows this) and collapsed helplessly after the event anyhow. This is the clear message left in the minds of sensible viewers who have not been indoctrinated with the insupportable avatar claims. (Why could the avatar not influence the outcome? Because he could not).

The top leader of the world-wide Sai Organisation, 'Dr.' Michael Goldstein (filmed with hidden camera!!)came across very definitively as about the biggest ego and most distasteful ranting person - the sort of doctor that could have come direct from hell. He is doubtless wide open for losing his medical licence to practice after this otherwise comical performance of blinded and hypocritical faith!

The Indian ex-Minister of Human Resources, Murali Manohar Joshi (who even funded astrology with Government funds... the human resource that superstitious India least needs) behaves a a most pompous an angry shouting bigshot with evil looking face as he defended Sai Baba.

Issac Tigrett, who funded the hospital in Puttaparthi, is a loud fanatic, laughing in a near-manical way quite out of place and admitting firmly that he believes the sex allegations are true and it makes no difference whatever to his faith!! Nor would even murder by Sai Baba make any difference to him. Are these "human values"? Tigrett comes over as mentally and spiritually fairly deranged. Everyone who see this (except conscienceless cowards - persons of weak character and pitiful self-deceivers) are recoiling in revulsion at this.

[BlackBillBlake]

Very true, haha! I have nothing against a different ideology, but do understand that what the vedas teach is not what you are saying.
So just for the record, what do the Vedas teach? By the Vedas, I mean the Vedas, not the Upanishads,Puranas, or other Indian texts.

[Bhaskar]

So just for the record, what do the Vedas teach? By the Vedas, I mean the Vedas, not the Upanishads,Puranas, or other Indian texts.
First of all, the upanishads are a part of the vedas. All vedas. puranas and itihasas point to the same truth.

That si that bramhan alone exists, whatever names we chose for it. Call it Rama, Krishna, bhagawan, alla, our father in heaven, god, whatever. That alone is. Infinite indivisible and eternal. And that infinite eternal self, is you, your true nature. You are not the body, nor the mind, nor even the intellect, these are but masks that hide your divinity, you are pure conciousness, untainted and infinite. That is what the vedas teach.

I refuse to enter the baba debate. I am quite satisfied of his genuinenity. That is enough for me. No amount of threatening private messages from alamo are going to bother me.

Also note that the guy alamo created a new id just to make that post. What do you fear! If you speak the truth, do so boldly, fear nothing! The truth will always protect you! Only liars and back stabbers have to hide behind guilty pseudonyms.

[BlackBillBlake]

I'm sorry, but this is a somewhat simplistic idea of the complexities of the Veda.



As for Alamo's post, he's seen the same tv documentary as myself, and millions of other British viewers - he is not lying, but accurately summarizes the content of the programme. There are allegations against Sai Baba - it's no use his followers thinking they will go away, or that one can simply hide one's head in the sand, or go into denial -

How much of what devotees attribute to Baba is just a projection of something within themselves?

How much is just a wish-fulfilment thing...and to what extent will people turn a blind eye to what is going on because they are afraid of disruption to their nice, comfortable 'spiritual' lives?

If he's innocent, then why does he not encourage a full investigation, and prove that the claims of abuse etc, are false?

[Bhaskar]

Claims of sexual abuse are far too easy to make and nearly impossible to refute. Videos can be faked quite easily, Ive done it myself for a school project. Its no big deal at all.

As for that being a very simple summary of the teachigns of the vedas, yes it is, vedanta in essence is simple, there is but oe truth, repeated over and over, in various ways, so that all our possible doubts may be erased. But the truth is one.

And I belive in baba, not because of the miracles, which are uite secondary, but because of his teachings, which are beautiful and simple and contain the essence of vedantic wisdom in them.

Finally, why would my following baba or not excite you all so much...if you dont blieve in him, thats fine, it affects neither baba, nor me, nor the hundreds of thousands of devotees world wide.

[Bhaskar]

Oh and not a single great realised master of our age has ever said a word against baba. All vedic scholars accept his veracity.

[BlackBillBlake]

Oh and not a single great realised master of our age has ever said a word against baba. All vedic scholars accept his veracity.
This is simply untrue. Srila Prabhupada, founder of the Krishna Copnsciousness society was a vedic scholar, recognized by the world as such, certainly didn't accept SB. And the same may be true for others.

As for the BBC 'Secret Swami' documentary, I would reserve judgement until you have seen it. Unless of course your belief in SB would prevent you from watching it -

Also, this thread does ask for opinions about SB-NOT only praise etc. from devotees. Many believe Baba to be a phoney, and devotees should be aware of this before entering into public debate.

[Alano]

Bhaskar demonstrates how little he knows of the four Vedas. He is too uninformed to know that there is not one single teaching anywhere in the whole of Sai Baba's output (which I know very well) which is original. It contains numerous direct plagiarisms (including 'My Life is My message, from Gandhi). The 'teaching' is actually full of vague, imprecise ideas and many penny proverbs and slogans, often in English given him by N. Kasturi (formerly a Ramakrishna follower). It is a hodge-podge amalgam of different and conflicting philosophies, a catch-all mass full of superstitious stories from the Puranas etc. presented as literal fact. The recorded teachings of Vivekananda, Shivananda, Aurobindo, Nisargadatta, Ramana Maharshi and scores more have a depth, clarity and accuracy nowhere evident in Sai Baba's teaching and without vague their sweeping generalisations, contradictions and masses of incorrect historical and religious statements (esp. about Christianity).
Many of Sai Baba's 'howlers', false claims, self-contradictions and absurdities are easy to discover on the internet- try the website of Brian Steel for a start. Worst of all, Sai Baba does not follow his own teachings whenever it does not suit him! That is the ultimate test of a false guru.
Bhaskar evidently lives in such a general state of youthful ignorance that he thinks the BBC and other European national broadcasters actually fake films to deceive the public. He is going to Puttaparthi where he will be induced by all those exaggerating, fanciful devotees who are trying to be 'mindless' into a subtle programme of further self-brainwashing!

[Bhaskar]

Having lived in an ashram for large periods of my life and been in the influence of great mahatmas like swami chinmayananda, swami dayananda, swami chidananda and swami tejomayananda all through my life, I have had ample opportunity for scriptural study. I know a lot of the vedas, upanishads and puranas., definitely enough to understand the teachings therein far better than you have.

I am not a follower of baba, he is nt my guru. I do recognise him as a mahatma and believe he is great. I dont understand why that bothers alano so much that he has to create a separate id on this site, merely in order to `warn` me. Baba teaches the path of bhakti yoga. I have read enough of the books released by him and his devotees to knwo that his teachings are very much consistent with vedanta, even though he himself has never had any scriptural study.

As for originality, no guru since Bhagawan Veda Vyasa has had any original teachings, they only present the same vedantic truths as set down thousands of years ago. The presentation may differ according to the needs of the devotees. Babas devotees are often unlearned, of the less privileged classes, so often their intellectual capabilities arent very well developed. Therefore the teachings must be simple, which they are. Love all, do your duty, pray, have faith. This is what baba teaches. The internet is not a credible source of quotations. I have heard baba speak on several occasions, in recordings, on television and even in person. These I trust. I trust the books that his true devotees write. Above all I trust my heart.

I thank you all for being so concerned with my well being as to send me anonymous emails warning me of imminent death, disaster and madness if I go to puttaparthi. It is nice to know that there are so many who care so much for me. However, it is my life and my choice. I have posted my last in this thread.

God bless you, one and all!

Hari Om!

[BlackBillBlake]

[QUOTE=Bhaskar]

As for originality, no guru since Bhagawan Veda Vyasa has had any original teachings, they only present the same vedantic truths as set down thousands of years ago. The presentation may differ according to the needs of the devotees. Babas devotees are often unlearned, of the less privileged classes, so often their intellectual capabilities arent very well developed. Therefore the teachings must be simple, which they are.

Clearly you have not looked into the works of Sri Aurobindo - he does present something new. As for teachings presented for the masses, lacking intellectual capacity, these 'teachings' may be wholly unsuitable for those with a more developed intellect. One can hardly expect everyone to be governed by the lowest common denominator.

[RainbowLovinHippy]

Since someone wants to know, I post important information - a warning!
The BBC film 'Secret Swami', shown to an audience of millions in Britain on June 17th, will eventually be seen on BBC World in over 225 million homes in over 200 countries. It is a gripping documentary masterpiece, rated pick of the week by all UK national newspapers. Read the UK Press reviews below summary:
The film reveals the experiences of a former long-term devotee family whose lives were ruined for many years by Sai Baba's most despicable and threatening paedophile sexual abuse of their son. One must see this to understand the authenticity of the accounts of this family and another ex-devotee who was pressured into oral sex in 1976 by this pervert God.

Sathya Sai Baba is a visibly a broken man who collapsed after the trial of his transparent faking under the cameras. Even so, the BBC could only show a tiny fraction of the film footage with Sai-abused young men etc. they took. After this film not a shadow of doubt that Sai Baba faked the "miracle" of the lingodbhava (very clear footage shows this) and collapsed helplessly after the event anyhow. This is the clear message left in the minds of sensible viewers who have not been indoctrinated with the insupportable avatar claims. (Why could the avatar not influence the outcome? Because he could not).

The top leader of the world-wide Sai Organisation, 'Dr.' Michael Goldstein (filmed with hidden camera!!)came across very definitively as about the biggest ego and most distasteful ranting person - the sort of doctor that could have come direct from hell. He is doubtless wide open for losing his medical licence to practice after this otherwise comical performance of blinded and hypocritical faith!

The Indian ex-Minister of Human Resources, Murali Manohar Joshi (who even funded astrology with Government funds... the human resource that superstitious India least needs) behaves a a most pompous an angry shouting bigshot with evil looking face as he defended Sai Baba.

Issac Tigrett, who funded the hospital in Puttaparthi, is a loud fanatic, laughing in a near-manical way quite out of place and admitting firmly that he believes the sex allegations are true and it makes no difference whatever to his faith!! Nor would even murder by Sai Baba make any difference to him. Are these "human values"? Tigrett comes over as mentally and spiritually fairly deranged. Everyone who see this (except conscienceless cowards - persons of weak character and pitiful self-deceivers) are recoiling in revulsion at this.

I watched this programme and was shocked by it as i'd heard of the Sai Baba some years before. I found the people reporting crimes of abuse, seemed to be honest. Im not one to judge as i will never truly know whether or not Sia Baba did the disgusting crimes he's been accused of. But, if true.....he needs to be stopped right away!

[Bhaskar]

Clearly you have not looked into the works of Sri Aurobindo - he does present something new. As for teachings presented for the masses, lacking intellectual capacity, these 'teachings' may be wholly unsuitable for those with a more developed intellect. One can hardly expect everyone to be governed by the lowest common denominator.

Yes, I have never read anything by Sri Aurobindo, however, I will lay down an open challenge. Show me what he has said, I will bring you quotes from the upanishads, vedas, puranas or shankarabhashyas that will reflect the exact same thing.

And I never said that Babas the right guru for everyone. His teachings dont suit me, although I can recognise the same truth in them. He isnt my guru. That doesnt make him less of a mahatma.

[BlackBillBlake]

Yes, I have never read anything by Sri Aurobindo, however, I will lay down an open challenge. Show me what he has said, I will bring you quotes from the upanishads, vedas, puranas or shankarabhashyas that will reflect the exact same thing.

And I never said that Babas the right guru for everyone. His teachings dont suit me, although I can recognise the same truth in them. He isnt my guru. That doesnt make him less of a mahatma.
I have no intention of trying to summarize the teachings of anyone. If you are interested, check it out for yourself.

If you believe in SB, thats your affair. I think there are real concerns over his authenticity, and his actions.

[DualVision]

Having lived in an ashram for large periods of my life and been in the influence of great mahatmas like swami chinmayananda, swami dayananda, swami chidananda and swami tejomayananda all through my life, I have had ample opportunity for scriptural study. I know a lot of the vedas, upanishads and puranas., definitely enough to understand the teachings therein far better than you have. I guess you have not yet mastered the art of mastering your ego, isn't it? ;) Shame really, since a big part of Sai Baba's teachings are about killing the ego.

By the way, thanks for telling us all of your "spiritual" affiliations. From following your posts throughout this thread I can see that you believe in a pseudo-intellectual philisophy called "Advaita" that is really the cause of the spiritual death of real Sanathana-dharma. Obviously I am intrigued to see you demonstrate your knowledge of the Shastras in support of this deviant philosophy, but let's leave that for now since the real topic of this thread is a homosexual paedophile and murderer called Sai Baba.

I am not a follower of baba, he is nt my guru. Oh really? You could have fooled me! How come you're defending him so strongly then? You must admit that it must look very strange to see strong defences from a person who claims not to be a follower of SB?

I do recognise him as a mahatma and believe he is great. That's your problem and your opinion. There is a growing number of people who are able to see beyond the fake miracles and pomposity, and are actually able to acknowledge the humiliation and betrayal they feel when having the courage and strength to admit that they have followed a charlatan as "God Incarnate" for so many years.

Baba teaches the path of bhakti yoga. Really? Then why has he written so much about jnana in Jnana Vahini?

Sorry, please demonstrate that SB teaches bhakti-yoga. There ar eplenty of us who have been his followers for many years and cannot corroborate the truth of your confident assertion.
Why? Why perhaps because, Sai Baba teaches a hodge-podge of different things that all sounds very sweet like sugar, gift-wraps it with "smart" sayings and presents it as a "philosophy."

What is even more hilarious is the number of people who actually fall for that rubbish. :D

I have read enough of the books released by him and his devotees to knwo that his teachings are very much consistent with vedanta, even though he himself has never had any scriptural study. You are right that he has never had any scriptural study. Moreover, he never even had a complete high-school education. He left home to become a big guru at the age of 14, remember?

Besides that, on what grounds do you claim that his teachings are "consistent with vedanta"? Do you happen to know Vedanta? If so, please demonstrate to me exactly how SB's teachings are consistent with Vedanta.

Those of us who actually know something of Vedanta can easily show how SB is a guy who doesn't even have a clue of simple common-sense, what to speak of high Vedanta! Please, his 'Sutra Vani' is totally incomprehensible. Do you actually think that he or any of his followers would be able to stand their ground in a real philosophical/Vedantic debate? I think not.

As for originality, no guru since Bhagawan Veda Vyasa has had any original teachings, they only present the same vedantic truths as set down thousands of years ago. Well, this is your mistake. I thought you said above that you had "ample opportunity for scriptural study" and that you "know a lot of the vedas, upanishads and puranas".

If what you say is true, then how did you just make the mistake of suggesting that Vedavyasa presented some original teachings? Surely you know that Vedavyasa simply compiled the shastras in written form and didn't actually present any of his own?

Oh yes, and before you talk about "presenting the same Vedantic truths", please demonstrate what exactly you mean when you mention Vedanta.

The presentation may differ according to the needs of the devotees. Babas devotees are often unlearned, of the less privileged classes, so often their intellectual capabilities arent very well developed. Therefore the teachings must be simple, which they are. Love all, do your duty, pray, have faith. This is what baba teaches. You're damn right that SB's devotees have underdeveloped intellectual capacities. That's probably why they fell for his cheap garbage in the first place.

The internet is not a credible source of quotations. I have heard baba speak on several occasions, in recordings, on television and even in person. These I trust. Sorry. It is a fact that whatever SB speaks in public is not accurately recorded in book form, and I have been a personal witness to this since I have sat at discourses that do not "officially" exist. Short of acquiring video and tape recordings of discourses, there is no way of actually knowing what he has said and didn't say. So all of the discourses that are contained in "Sathya Sai Speaks" and "Summer Showers" series, you trust these?

I have pity.

I trust the books that his true devotees write.
I feel more pity.

[DualVision]

Claims of sexual abuse are far too easy to make and nearly impossible to refute. Would you be saying that if Sai Baba had abused you? You might like to try showing some sensitivity, you know.

Videos can be faked quite easily, Ive done it myself for a school project. Its no big deal at all. Okay, so I guess the BBC are a bunch of cheating liars then, since they have footage of SB not vomiting a lingam earlier this year!

And I belive in baba, not because of the miracles, which are uite secondary, but because of his teachings, which are beautiful and simple and contain the essence of vedantic wisdom in them. You still have to demonstrate how exactly SB's teachings are "vedantic." So I would suggest you do that before paying further lip service to concepts that you still have to demonstrate a knowledge about.

Finally, why would my following baba or not excite you all so much...if you dont blieve in him, thats fine, it affects neither baba, nor me, nor the hundreds of thousands of devotees world wide. Sorry, Sai Baba IS affected by bad press. Remember how he screamed at the top of his voice at Christmas 2000, in reaction to the expose of him published in India Today magazine?

The British Press have run articles and TV reviews of the BBC documentary which have invited several angry responses by excitable devotees. Most of it has been utterly hilarious to read. So you cannot just sit there and say that "none of this affects you", because it does.

I assume that his devotees are paying good attention to him when he exhorts his disciples not to react to good or bad situations but to remain calm. Such a shame they disobey him, isn't it?

First of all, the upanishads are a part of the vedas. All vedas. puranas and itihasas point to the same truth.
Which is?

That si that bramhan alone exists, whatever names we chose for it. Really? Please show me where exactly this is stated in the shastras. And do not disappoint me by referring to 'ekam sat vipra bahudha vadanti', because that does not mean what you think it means.

I refuse to enter the baba debate.
Then, pray tell, what the heck are you doing here?

[philuk]

delete post

[DualVision]

It has been over two days and no reply from Bhaskar.

This just goes to show that when you bluff, and someone calls your bluff, you will completely fail in your arguments.

[Alano]

It is a shame to see such untutored people as Bhaskar - living in a largely mythological world-view -swallowing the bait set out by the Sai people. Once hooked, they are soon landed and their minds gradually expire and they become part of a movement so big that the secret core is completely impenetrable to the huge majority. Attracted by a catch-all teaching of 'love' and service, they clap and enthuse from the periphery of the crowd, little knowing what is really going on, but accepting all the mind-binds and restraints on free speech and inquiry that mark every member of this sect... once just a sect, now closing ranks tighter and tighter against the outside world as a cult with much to hide, enforcing obedience on its members not to ask questions or look at the evidence. Evidently, Bhaskar was already a lost soul when he began to post here. I point this out for the record.

[philuk]

I have spoken to Bhaskar many times Alano and I don't find your statements true.

He is connected to another guru nothing to do with Sai Baba. I very much doubt Bhaskar will leave his guru.

From my talks with Bhaskar he meets many spiritual saints, and isn't a spokesperson for Sai Baba. He has never mentioned him to me before.

Lets not use this forum to judge others, be it Bhaskar or Sai Baba, that job is God's not ours.

Only God, Sai Baba and the people accusing him know the truth. Anything else is just opinion.

[BlackBillBlake]

Lets not use this forum to judge others, be it Bhaskar or Sai Baba, that job is God's not ours.
.But Sai Baba is supposed to be God! So he and his adherents would have us believe --so we either judge for ourselves whether this is true (with whatever powers of discrimination are there) or accept uncritically what is probably untrue.
If Baba has broken the law with regard to sexual misconduct, he should face human justice just like everyone else. I doubt you would want to leave it to God to deal with the 'ordinary' offender, so why should Baba be a special case?

As for using the forum to attempt to assasinate the charachter of other forum users, I agree that this is foolish and achieves little, other than to show the ego of the person doing the posting for what it is.

[philuk]

If Sai Baba is guility BlackBillBlake, then let karma run it's course. I just don't think it help's anyone's spiritual path arguing over something none of us has many facts about. TV programmes have been known to be wrong is all I am saying, not that Sai Baba is innocent. Some people seem to be posting like the tv programmme on BBC 2 is a court of law, which it is not. Innocent until proven gulity the UK justice system works by. Let's all hold that frame of mind until something more concrete comes along.

[DualVision]

If Sai Baba is guility BlackBillBlake, then let karma run it's course.
I am not BBB, and for that I apologise, but can I express my incredulity at your above statement? You mean to say that if Sai Baba is guilty then we should let karma run its course, even if that means allowing Sai Baba to rape and perform anal and oral sex on MORE innocent young boys?

Seriously, is this what you are suggesting? What else could you possibly mean by suggesting that karma should take its course?

Did you think that perhaps it is the karma of those who are exposing his dastardly activities to expose him? How about that?

I just don't think it help's anyone's spiritual path arguing over something none of us has many facts about.
Perhaps you might like to get in touch with those who do have plenty of facts. Would you like to visit Exbaba (http://www.exbaba.com), for instance?

TV programmes have been known to be wrong is all I am saying, not that Sai Baba is innocent. Some people seem to be posting like the tv programmme on BBC 2 is a court of law, which it is not.
It is an indisputable fact that TV programmes can be wrong and it is certainly not a court of law. However, please do bear in mind that the BBC spent several months investigating all these allegations. Contrary to what appears in the final edit, I can tell you that they have over 80+ hours of footage and damning interviews with a large cross-section of devotees and former devotees alike. I happen to know this for a fact.
Please remember that the BBC simply filmed these interviewees, did a little of their own research and presented their conclusions. They certainly did not present a large hoo-ha sort of documentary.

In any case, you might like to know that two of Sai Baba's biggest devotees - Michael Goldstein, a medical practitioner, and Isaac Tigrett, the ex-hippy co-founder of the Hard Rock Café who donated millions to Sai Baba to build a super-hospital - were exposed as fools.

Why? Why well, Goldstein has laid himself open to losing his medical licence because he wildly alleged that he was able to tell who is a sex abuse victim on sight, a statement that he has no right or qualification to make. He was also exposed on hidden camera stating quite clearly that a legalistic investigation into the allegations is not necessary simply because he believes it is "not appropriate", despite stating that he himself does not believe that the allegations are true.
In stark contrast, Isaac Tigrett does believe that the allegations are true! Imagine that! He has no qualms about worshipping Sai Baba as God on earth even though God may be a homosexual paedophile who is implicated in murder and financial scandals! Pretty cool, eh?

Innocent until proven gulity the UK justice system works by. Let's all hold that frame of mind until something more concrete comes along.
How more concrete do you want to get, dude?

Let's just imagine a hypothetical situation, no offence: What if you were sexually abused just now? How on earth are you going to "prove" that you were sexually abused? All you can really do is go to the police, file a report, employ a lawyer and get the molestor to caught, and maybe get a conviction if you are lucky.

This is just hypothetical of course. But really, what are you waiting for that is "concrete"? He was exposed in the BBC Documentary as having FAKED the Sivaratri lingam "miracle" since nothing came out from his mouth except for regurgitated water and perhaps a little vomit. Bear in mind that this event was being broadcast live all over India too, by Indian TV.
Even the ex-Home Minister of Andhra Pradesh, Velayudhan Nair, frankly states that the events of 6th June 1993 was "cold-blooded murder". The police reports were "riddled with inconsistencies and lies", he states? And he is so sure of himself that he plans to re-open the case.

Please, without jumping to Sai Baba's defence with appeals of "please hold on until we get something concrete", why not just accept the available evidence and admit that Sai Baba is SUSPECT, to say the least?

[philuk]

What I mean by karma is that if Sai Baba is guility he will be punished for his crimes in this life or another. I am in no way condoning his behavior in any shape or form. If he is gulity, then it is a horrific crime.

I only saw the last second half of the programme and before that had never heard of Sai Baba. I just am not comfortable saying someone is 100% guility from watching that tv programme. It didn't show any conclusive proof such as evidence of his crime. Just people accusing him.

I have no idea whether Sai Baba is guility of not. That programme would lead me to the conclusion he maybe. But it is only created from an accusation standpoint.

I dont think anyone can say 100% he is guility or innocent. Only God, Sai Baba and the accusers know that.

I agree that the person who said he didn't care even if Sai Baba did the crime is a disgusting thing to say. And person who got hidden camera filmed was a horrible swearing individual. If these people are part of Sai Baba's company it is a bad indication.

I definitely agree there needs to be a proper investigation and there is definietly evidence to support this investigation. Thats why I said lets not say he is guilty or innocent until something like a lawful investigation finds either.

Remember the journalist at bbc who made up all that info about the iraq war and bbc had to apologize to the UK government. The bbc do make mistakes.

[Alano]

Philuk is an interesting case. He says he knew nothing about Sai Baba before he saw the last part of the 'Secret Swami' documentary, but he is willing to air views on the subject. Why should anyone take any notice whatever. He defends Bhaskar, who has demonstrated that he is a consummate dupe... one must not point out things like that, according to Philuk. But people who want to be in the kitchen and tell others what to believe and do must learn to stand the heat... or get out, as Bhaskar has done. The boon of free speech has some drawbacks, that we have to put up with totally uninformed and opinionated persons sounding off about things that they should not meddle in.

[philuk]

totally uninformed and opinionated persons sounding off about things that they should not meddle in.Are you referring to yourself Alano. Please inform me of your vast personal experience of both Sai Baba and his accusers. Have you been a disciple of Sai Baba ? , are you a friend or family of his accusers ?

If not then your opinion is no more informed than mine.

Bare in mind I am totally neutral on this topic and haven't expressed an opinion to favour either side.

I only express an opinion when I have direct experience of which I speak. I was only requesting that others posting in this thread do otherwise.

Your definition of free speech Alano would be slander in some courts of law.

The programme on BBC2 was purely from the prosecution standpoint, there was noone delivering a well formed defense. Only with these two standpoints expressed could any 'informed opinion' be formed. Even then many innocent people have been sent to jail and many guility people escaped prison.

I leave this thread at this point. I am neutral on this topic and support neither camp.

[DualVision]

The programme on BBC2 was purely from the prosecution standpoint, there was noone delivering a well formed defense.
I suppose that is true in a sense. Here is what Dr. Michael Goldstein, the World Chairman of Sathya Sai Organisation had to say about "defending" Sai Baba:

10.50.33
Tanya Datta
You sound to me that you’re completely unafraid of these
allegations because you don’t believe them for one
second…

10.50.38
Dr Michael Goldstein
That’s right. That is right.

10.50.40
Tanya Datta
Then why don’t you allow some transparency into the
investigation of them.

10.50.43
Dr Michael Goldstein
Transparency in what sense?

10.50.45
Tanya Datta
Why don’t you have thorough investigations, instead of
just asking one question to one person…

10.50.49
Dr Michael Goldstein
What do you mean by thorough investigation?

10.50.51
Interviewer
Objective investigators, not someone asking the
perpetrator whether he, he carried out the act. But
someone, you know, a proper legal process or a legalistic
process should I say.

10.51.04
Tanya Datta
Yes.

10.51.05
Dr Michael Goldstein
Because I don’t believe that’s appropriate with Sai Baba.

10.51.08
Interviewer
Why not?

10.51.09
Dr Michael Goldstein
Because my heart and my conscience tell me that it’s not
possible.

10.51.12
Tanya Datta
Is Sai Baba above the law then? I mean…

10.51.14
Dr Michael Goldstein
No, no, he’s not above the law, I don’t believe that it’s
possible that he could do anything like that.

---------------------------

So the WORLD CHAIRMAN says a legalistic investigation is not possible simply because he believes it is "not appropriate."

With dunces like this, is it any wonder that Sai Baba looks so unimpressive?

[philuk]

Yes the people in Sai Baba's organisation did not paint a pretty picture did they. But the problem is they are two of maybe many. Only if we had indepth footage of them could we get a better opinion.

That's all I am saying. It needs a more objective investigation. Every stone needs to be turned over. I doubt it will ever happen with the polictical system in India.

But it would be the best thing for everyone including Sai Baba. So that everyone knows the truth, and followers can have a untroubled heart if he is innocent. Or can follow a better path if he is guility.

[BlackBillBlake]

Yes the people in Sai Baba's organisation did not paint a pretty picture did they. But the problem is they are two of maybe many. Only if we had indepth footage of them could we get a better opinion.

That's all I am saying. It needs a more objective investigation. Every stone needs to be turned over. I doubt it will ever happen with the polictical system in India.

But it would be the best thing for everyone including Sai Baba. So that everyone knows the truth, and followers can have a untroubled heart if he is innocent. Or can follow a better path if he is guility.
So much then for 'leaving it to karma'! You are right about the need for an investigation, but as came out in the 'Secret Swami' documentary the Indian authorities regard him as beyond reproach, almost above the law. So I doubt we will see any meaningful investigation.
Meanwhile, his followers will still close their minds to the allegations,(unless they accept them but have decided it's ok) and the abuse, if it is real, and I think it probably is, will also continue.
Perhaps this is the price people pay for 'packaged spirituality', particularly when this is rooted in another culture.

[philuk]

Yes I didn't mean do nothing when I said 'leaving it to karma'
You obviously dont understand karma if you think it does nothing.

The Soul of Sai Baba will make sure he is "punished" if he is guility. In this life or the next. There is no need to worry about this.

Maybe he would be abused in his next life. Surely this would be better punishment than just going to jail. To know the torment of the abused.

As the saying goes "those who pick up the sword, die by the sword"

[Alano]

Philuk wrote about Sai Baba: "Maybe he would be abused in his next life. Surely this would be better punishment than just going to jail. To know the torment of the abused."
This is exactly the kind of argument some Sai devotees (eg. Ram Das Awle) use to defend Sai Baba! According to them, Sai Baba is now abusing persons who were abusers in their former life or lives... and, being God, he is just doing his duty. What a load of old cobblers!

The theory of karma has logical weaknesses, and it has to be believed in because it is unproven, of course. It is easily misused to mollify people and put off human justice, leaving everything to 'automatic retribution' according to the laws of karma - now, this year, next year or sometime in the blue.

However on Philuk's theory, sexual abuse could just go on and on through lifetimes without end. The same applies to karma... there is no end to it, as one cannot be alive and not act ('karma' means 'action'). Though it does allow that one can act (by one's free will) so as to reduce 'bad karma' and increase 'good karma' so as to get an all-credit account. Even that does not stop the process, however, for one must live on to reap the rewards!

Since freedom from karma means freedom from the living body (and any rebirth), it is for all human intents and purposes strongly biassed towards automative determinism and unfreedom, where democratic choice also becomes as an empty sham. (even emptier than it actually is in most Eastern countries).

To alleviate this weakness in the theory, some proponents declare that God, being Almighty, can lift karma by his own inscrutable will (i.e. arbitrarily, illogiaclly by his grace etc.) and Sai devotees even think God (for them, Sai Baba) 'takes on' the karma of others to lessen their burden, such as through suffering heart attacks and what have you! (But this is only for the chosen very few, as Sai Baba hasn't got time for many illnesses!)

Quite an ideological mess, most people would say. Either one believes without knowing or thinks without believing it is correct.

[philuk]

When you are self realised only love will be expressed, this is the end of karma. God is perfect he doesn't abuse, therefore Sai Baba can't be God if he abused.

Has any other past master such as Jesus or Buddha ever abused someone and said it's God's work.

If anyone in Sai Baba's organisation knows he abused and still thinks its God's work then he can't be any more further away from God.

Since freedom from karma means freedom from the living body (and any rebirth), it is for all human intents and purposes strongly biassed towards automative determinism and unfreedom, where democratic choice also becomes as an empty sham. (even emptier than it actually is in most Eastern countries).Of course you have choice, in every action you take. This will determine future karma and the ability to become self realised. But you only have two choices in reality, the path towards God or away.

Of course the game is fixed, your soul is God and will one day return, so in the long run you are right. You have no choice.

We are all God, and this is Me, You, Jesus, Sai Baba and Hitler. As Jesus sais,

"Ye are Gods"

There is no right or wrong (only exists in our mind), only becoming closer or further away from the truth that you God.

When you realise this you will realise you are pure love and nothing else. And it would not be possible to abuse anyone sexually.

Therefore if Sai Baba is guility then he is not self-realised or enlightened. And the followers who except his behavior are so so far from the truth.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Again he still hasn't been proven guility. Unless he confesses or he is caught red handed we will never truely know. It is only your opinion Alano.

[DualVision]

philuk = Another Advaitin !!!!

[philuk]

what's an Advaitin ?

You guys seem more like a lynch mob, even before the trial you are saying the man is guilty. I believe in innocent until proven guility.

Why not except the fact you don't know the truth. Appeal for a proper investigation of Sai Baba.

Let's just hope the investigation or jury does't include the people posting on this thread. Objectivity is none of your strong points.

Please point out the mistake I have made while posting in this thread ?

All I have said is,

A, None of us know 100% if Sai Baba is guility or not.

B, Let's have a proper investigation to see.

C, Even if Sai Baba is guility and doesn't get investigated, under the laws of karma which I believe in he will be perfectly punished in this life or the next.

[BlackBillBlake]

Yes I didn't mean do nothing when I said 'leaving it to karma'
You obviously dont understand karma if you think it does nothing.

The Soul of Sai Baba will make sure he is "punished" if he is guility. In this life or the next. There is no need to worry about this.

Maybe he would be abused in his next life. Surely this would be better punishment than just going to jail. To know the torment of the abused.

As the saying goes "those who pick up the sword, die by the sword"
A model of karma where SB would have to suffer abuse in a subsequent life doesn't seem a very realistic one to me - for one thing it would presumably mean that abuse must go on indefinitely in this world in order that the SBs of this world can be punished. And those who are being abused now shouldn't grumble, as they are very likely suffering the reaction of their own misdeeds in past lives.

Not only that, but the thing is far from a proven fact. Human institutions of justice are unfortunately a necessary feature of the real world. It is no good saying that God will punish Baba (although He may) or that Baba's own atman or his karma will punish him.

Also, justice for Baba is only half of the equation. There is also the question of the influence he exerts and the devotion he commands from millions. If the allegations are true, these people are all being led up the garden path by a charlatan - and very likely new 'recruits' are going to him all the time They have a right to know - in fact they must face the truth about SB, no matter how unpalatable that is.

[philuk]

Also, justice for Baba is only half of the equation. There is also the question of the influence he exerts and the devotion he commands from millions. If the allegations are true, these people are all being led up the garden path by a charlatan - and very likely new 'recruits' are going to him all the time They have a right to know - in fact they must face the truth about SB, no matter how unpalatable that is.I have said this a number of times before. Let me again state my view on this topic,

- A proper investigation needs to be done
- If SB is guility he needs to be punished

You will never get justice BlackBillBlake. Even if SB is guility and gets sent to jail I doubt that will equal the crimes he did. Karma will dole out the proper justice. That is what i meant by the statement "leave it to karma". Not that an investigation should not be done. Criminals need to be stopped.

All I have ever said is that with abuse / rape cases it's very hard to prove 100%. We will probably never know if SB is guility or not. Only God, SB and the accusers know that.

And BlackBillBlake what about if SB is innocent. What will you think then ?

It is still quite possible he is innocent. I am open minded, I do not judge people unless I have the total 100% facts.

You Dont have the 100% facts do you BlackBillBlake. Your opinion is only formed from a one sided tv programme.

I would be worried if my opinion was swayed and manipulated so easily. I like to know 100% for sure before I open my big mouth. Maybe you should. That's all I've been saying. I am no fan or supporter of SB.

[BlackBillBlake]

I have said this a number of times before. Let me again state my view on this topic,

- A proper investigation needs to be done
- If SB is guility he needs to be punished

You will never get justice BlackBillBlake. Even if SB is guility and gets sent to jail I doubt that will equal the crimes he did. Karma will dole out the proper justice. That is what i meant by the statement "leave it to karma". Not that an investigation should not be done. Criminals need to be stopped.

All I have ever said is that with abuse / rape cases it's very hard to prove 100%. We will probably never know if SB is guility or not. Only God, SB and the accusers know that.

And BlackBillBlake what about if SB is innocent. What will you think then ?

It is still quite possible he is innocent. I am open minded, I do not judge people unless I have the total 100% facts.

You Dont have the 100% facts do you BlackBillBlake. Your opinion is only formed from a one sided tv programme.

I would be worried if my opinion was swayed and manipulated so easily. I like to know 100% for sure before I open my big mouth. Maybe you should. That's all I've been saying. I am no fan or supporter of SB.
I am not so concerned about punishment here ( although if guilty he should be punished)- I would consider it more important that people should be protected from false doctrine etc.

Also, my doubts about SB do not arise from only one TV programme, but also from much I have heard over the last few years regarding SB.

Were a full investigation to take place, and if Baba was cleared, then I would accept he is innocent of the crimes he is accused of. This doesn't mean I would accept him as an avatar, or even a particularly high level teacher.

[Alano]

Philuk is a believer in the same theory that Sai Baba 'teaches' about karma, that all are God, that there is only love. I suppose that Sai Baba is where he got it from, he states it in such a similar fashion to Sai Baba. He presents this from a 'know-all' standpoint, yet then he claims that we do not have "100% facts". It is a simplistic notion that one can have "100% facts" anyhow, but he thinks he knows the ultimate fate of everyone! There is certainly something very wrong with philuk's attitude to truth.

It is also very simplistic to think, as he evidently does, that a person cannot be guilty before proven so (presumably in a court). Apart from the obvious fact that many courts condemn innocents, and let the guilty go free (not least in corrupt, caste-ridden India), persons who were abused by him know better. (I was not sexually abused, but my faith was and he lied to me and was guilty of fraud towards me, which I KNOW with full certainty) When there is compelling evidence - not least highly credible victim testimony from so many around the world - it is legitimate to claim his guilt before he is brought to justice. This is not a "lynch mob", but people crying out for resourse to justice.

Besides, clincing forensic proof is not impossible even here. There exist several prints, AND the original negative, of Sai Baba engaging in oral sex with a former student. The person in India who currently holds these for future court presentation has been burgled three times in the past year by persons searching in his albums and his computer. Noew who might they be and on whose errand? Certainly it has to do with protecting Sai Baba. Fortunately he had the negative in safe-keeping. Many people have seen these photos, actually, in India.

The standpoint that a person is innocent until proven guilty has major weaknesses when made into something more embracing that it is intended to be. It is a formal principle, of course. His critics are not saying that he has been proven guilty, but asser that he is nevertheless not innocent, is guilty. It should be easy to understand, for example... Saddam Hussein is not proven guilty of anything criminal. Nor was the belgian rapist/murderer for six long years... but all 'knew' her was guilty. The young girls who escaped and were saved from his cellar were proof enough to any right-thinking person. Of course, it does not constitute legal proof, but that is another thing. There are moral laws as well as social law, neither of which are infallible. So those who know sufficient facts (including me) have investigated them and contacted those alleging abuse. We have viewed the massive evidence from all conceivable angles through years and have wanted to know the truth about it. I can assure all that those of us who were devotees for decades did this most seriously and circumspectly, because it was a massive step for us to take after having involved ourselves totally in the Sai movement and sacrificed almost all our energies to that end... you can only vaguely imagine it until you are in such a position yourself.
Philuk can believe what he wants... anyone can, it's easy, unless you have an active conscience and are interested in the truth. But a tough examination of the testimony and evidence is the decider in this case. Look at www.saiguru.net (http://www.saiguru.net)... that is a good start!

[GanjaPrince]

I did some reading and surfed around for a little on the baba, still don't know where to stand in the issue... I don't buy that he is an avatar, although he is God, as are you, and everyone else. This leaves all kinds of possibilities open. A fraud, a creepy guy who gave into the shadow side of the mystical path, a honorable guru spreading love who is being accussed wrong and misunderstood depending on the action, a mixture of these in other words a cosmic joke guru, and so on and so on and so on...

So all and all... I draw a big blank. The whole thing seems very cosmic joke, paradoxical, dharmic humor to me.

This is the most clear in a website that I must show you guys, you must check it out...

http://www.saibaba-aclearview.com/

The whole thing is basically written by a very dedicated devotee that has to have a pretty decent cosmic joking sense of humor to have written something so paradoxical which all mysticism is, it is the realm of the inner heart beyond the rational mind, of feeling things out, inner knowing and seeing! so it's up to you to find the truth, because in the higher planes winning lots of debates in logic class is a burden. It is inspiring to cosmic chuckles in a very odd sort of way... hehehe, irrational rationalization?

So what did he write?

Well this guy believes pretty much most of the allegations against the being, sexual abuse, false miracles and all kinds of things, yet still accepts that he is a divine avatar, better then the rest, in fact THE BEST, and so everything he did was for the good of the devottees.

Ironically this is true in a cosmic joking sense, because everything that happens is done for the best, everything is perfect, divine will and perfection, the world is all conspired to do ya sum good... that goes for everyone's actions, right and wrong... so, every guru, really pure, pure and fake, sat, upa, and no label, but that all includes everyday peeps, and clowns, and presidents, mass murders and pelicans and hare krishna hare krishna krishna krishna hare hare hare rama hare rama rama rama hare hare!


And that's my THREE cents!

Love all!

And when it comes to right and wrong, there is the chirst heart with the Buddha mind. Praise Allah, you spinning Sufi you!

From www.ramdasstapes.org (http://www.ramdasstapes.org), sums up morality perfectly for me.

'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind." This is the great and foremost commandment. "And a second is like it, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets." (Jesus as quoted by Matthew 22:37 (http://www.ramdasstapes.org/DOCUME~1/MARILY~1/LOCALS~1/life-of-jesus-ancient/biography-of-jesus-christ/who-is-Jesus-by-matthew/gospel-of-matthew-22_34-40.shtml))

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." (Jesus as quoted by John 13:34-35 (http://www.ramdasstapes.org/DOCUME~1/MARILY~1/LOCALS~1/life-of-jesus-ancient/biography-of-jesus-christ/who-is-Jesus-by-john/gospel-of-john-13_31-38.shtml))

"You must accept the teachings of Christ and follow them. Christ said to be like a little child-never think or speak anything, that could harm anyone ....... He was crucified so that his spirit could spread throughout the world . He sacrificed his body for the dharma. He never died, he never died. He is Atman (The Soul) living in the hearts of all........Why was Christ so maligned?" Maharajji was asked."It is so with all saints, they see only love in everyone. You should not speak, hear or do evil. You should see love everywhere and in everyone. See the good in all."
excerpts from Miracle of Love Stories about Neem Karoli Baba by Ram Dass


And don't do anything that would harm anyone either... Abusing unwilling people sexually through manipulation, status, power and so on, is wrong, and even wronger with young kids. So if Sai is guilty of this, he has given over to the dark forces. Reguardless if he is guility or not guilty, his manifestation serves as a powerful lesson for many spiritual seekers... His presence is a blessing, as is all that is!

[BlackBillBlake]

So all and all... I draw a big blank. The whole thing seems very cosmic joke, paradoxical, dharmic humor to me.


A kind of warped humour here. This man is not only misleading others with false claims to Avatarhood, but is quite possibly a child abuser, and is implicated in at least one murder.

Clear enough that those devotees who stand by him whilst accepting the allegations are lost souls.

[matthew]

I think he is a fraud.

I would not trust him as far as i could throw him.

http://home.no.net/anir/Sai/enigma/Rum4.htm (http://home.no.net/anir/Sai/enigma/Rum4.htm)

http://www.skeptica.dk/2001/01_1.htm?FACTNet (http://www.skeptica.dk/2001/01_1.htm?FACTNet)


http://home.iae.nl/users/lightnet/religion/sai.htm (http://home.iae.nl/users/lightnet/religion/sai.htm)


http://www.saibabalinks.org/ (http://www.saibabalinks.org/)


warning graphic pictures...
http://home.no.net/anir/Sai/enigma/Murders.htm (http://home.no.net/anir/Sai/enigma/Murders.htm)


Take a look at the 5th one [ AKA the oldest trick in the book]

http://sathyasaibaba1.tripod.com/movie_clip.htm

[sylvanlightning]

Yes, I have never read anything by Sri Aurobindo, however, I will lay down an open challenge. Show me what he has said, I will bring you quotes from the upanishads, vedas, puranas or shankarabhashyas that will reflect the exact same thing.

And I never said that Babas the right guru for everyone. His teachings dont suit me, although I can recognise the same truth in them. He isnt my guru. That doesnt make him less of a mahatma.

"Kriya Yoga Sutras of Patanjali and the Siddhas" by M. Govindan pgs 104, 105 & 158

The combination of these two seem to fit into your discussion.

"III: 37

~* These attainments are obstacles to cognitive absorption but are accomplishments in the waking state. *~

One should not become attached to these accomplishments (siddhis), however marvelous they may be from the worldly perspective. Making them one's goal will only delay the perfection of cognitive absorption (samadhi). Let them come but let them go. They are mere signposts along the way, and are by no means necessary.

The Mother: on accomplishments (siddhis): "all those powers, gifts, constructions, manifestations, it all reminded me of the life of a traveling juggler. It's like a juggler's life - you go from fairground to fairground, displaying your feats of skill. There was a time when I saw all these things as something very nice, for widening my power of imagination so I could present these things to the Lord. But it is not necessary." There is excitement, it is like champagne bubbles, but it complicates things, it clouds the issue. You have to wait for the bubbles to subside before you can calmly set off again on your way toward the goal.

II: 38

~* By one established in chastity, vigor is gained. *~

Chastity (brahmacarya), is detachment from sexual fantasies. Fantasizing about sex, or indulging lustful feelings, dissipates and disperses the mind just as the physical acts of sex cause the loss of vital force. The cultivation of brahmacarya enables us to sublimate vital energy to awaken the higher centers of consciousness, and to turn the consciousness away from fleeting sense sensations and towards the ultimate inner source of joy.

Even in marriage we should practice moderation with regard to sexual activity, and seek to transmute sexual energies through both practices and attitudes. We may see our spouse as a living embodiment of the Divine.

By going above ourselves we can get out of problems, but the problems below are still there and need to be resolved. By going deep within to the emotional being and opening the heart-center to peace and untroubled aspiration for the Divine, chastity becomes effortless.

But, as Sri Aurobindo puts it: when we cling to the "Thou Shalts" and the "Thou Shalt nots," what is harmful for one person may be helpful for another. What may be harmful under certain circumstances may be helpful in other conditions. What is done in a certain spirit may be disastrous, yet the same thing done in a quite different spirit would be innocuous, or even beneficial. There are many things to be considered: the spirit, the circumstances, the person, the need and the cast of the nature, the stage. That is why it is said that the guru must deal with each disciple according to his separate nature and accordingly guide his sadhana; even if it is the same line of sadhana for all, yet at every point for each it differs."

Namaste and Bright Blessings,

Om shanti shanti shanti.

[matthew]

sylvanlightning do you , actualy......

..does anyone have any comments on my prev post ? . I am not going to sit hear and say i have had any personal experiances ...but just skipping over it and not comfronting it is not fair... :( humour me for a bit.

http://hipforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=240528&postcount=60

[BlackBillBlake]

"Kriya Yoga Sutras of Patanjali and the Siddhas" by M. Govindan pgs 104, 105 & 158

The combination of these two seem to fit into your discussion.

"III: 37

~* These attainments are obstacles to cognitive absorption but are accomplishments in the waking state. *~

One should not become attached to these accomplishments (siddhis), however marvelous they may be from the worldly perspective. Making them one's goal will only delay the perfection of cognitive absorption (samadhi). Let them come but let them go. They are mere signposts along the way, and are by no means necessary.

The Mother: on accomplishments (siddhis): "all those powers, gifts, constructions, manifestations, it all reminded me of the life of a traveling juggler. It's like a juggler's life - you go from fairground to fairground, displaying your feats of skill. There was a time when I saw all these things as something very nice, for widening my power of imagination so I could present these things to the Lord. But it is not necessary." There is excitement, it is like champagne bubbles, but it complicates things, it clouds the issue. You have to wait for the bubbles to subside before you can calmly set off again on your way toward the goal.

II: 38

~* By one established in chastity, vigor is gained. *~

Chastity (brahmacarya), is detachment from sexual fantasies. Fantasizing about sex, or indulging lustful feelings, dissipates and disperses the mind just as the physical acts of sex cause the loss of vital force. The cultivation of brahmacarya enables us to sublimate vital energy to awaken the higher centers of consciousness, and to turn the consciousness away from fleeting sense sensations and towards the ultimate inner source of joy.

Even in marriage we should practice moderation with regard to sexual activity, and seek to transmute sexual energies through both practices and attitudes. We may see our spouse as a living embodiment of the Divine.

By going above ourselves we can get out of problems, but the problems below are still there and need to be resolved. By going deep within to the emotional being and opening the heart-center to peace and untroubled aspiration for the Divine, chastity becomes effortless.

But, as Sri Aurobindo puts it: when we cling to the "Thou Shalts" and the "Thou Shalt nots," what is harmful for one person may be helpful for another. What may be harmful under certain circumstances may be helpful in other conditions. What is done in a certain spirit may be disastrous, yet the same thing done in a quite different spirit would be innocuous, or even beneficial. There are many things to be considered: the spirit, the circumstances, the person, the need and the cast of the nature, the stage. That is why it is said that the guru must deal with each disciple according to his separate nature and accordingly guide his sadhana; even if it is the same line of sadhana for all, yet at every point for each it differs."

Namaste and Bright Blessings,

Om shanti shanti shanti.
I'm not quite sure what you are intending to say here. If you mean that there is anything in the philosophy of Sri Aurobindo and the Mother that would justify Sai Baba if he is guilty of the allegations of sexual abuse, implication in murder etc, then you are quite wrong. The following is a quote from 'The Sunlit Path', a record of sayings and conversations of the Mother

'Humanity has the sexual impulse in a way altogether natural, spontaneous and, I would say, legitimate.This impulse will naturally and spontaneously disappear with animality. Many other things will disappear, as for example the need to eat, and perhaps also the need to sleep in the way we sleep now. But the most conscious impulse in a superior humanity, which has continued as a source of ...bliss is a big word, but joy, delight - is certainly the sexual activity, and that will have absolutely no reason for existence in the functions of Nature when the need to create in that way will no longer exist. Therefore, the capacity of entering into relation with the joy of life will rise by one step, or will be oriented differently. But what the ancient aspirants had sought on principle - sexual negation - is an absurd thing, because this must be only for those who have gone beyond this stage and no longer have animality in them. And it must drop off naturally, without effort and without struggle. To make of it a centre of conflict and struggle is ridiculous. It is only when the consciousness ceases to be human that it drops off quite naturally.'

So, if Baba is an Avatar, ie one whose consciousness is above the ordinary human level, why the need for sex? Especially illicit sex?

[sylvanlightning]

I'm not quite sure what you are intending to say here. If you mean that there is anything in the philosophy of Sri Aurobindo and the Mother that would justify Sai Baba if he is guilty of the allegations of sexual abuse, implication in murder etc, then you are quite wrong. The following is a quote from 'The Sunlit Path', a record of sayings and conversations of the Mother

So, if Baba is an Avatar, ie one whose consciousness is above the ordinary human level, why the need for sex? Especially illicit sex?

Beautiful quote by the Mother. Thank you so much. Very refreshing. My intention was to share poetic words of Sri Aurobindo and the Mother. I do not feel these words would justify Sai Baba .... in fact I really don't have the time or attention to linger on what if's .... just enjoyed sharing a quote by admired spiritual teachers. I felt the 2 presented sutras would address both how siddhas can be dangerous if the desire body has not been transformed and how sex needs to be held as sacred until it drops away naturally. That is still what I feel the two misunderstandings are in Sai Babas case... its less a matter of my inductive reasoning and more a matter of wanting to share some heartfelt words.

[Jedi]

I think he is a fraud.

I would not trust him as far as i could throw him.

http://home.no.net/anir/Sai/enigma/Rum4.htm (http://home.no.net/anir/Sai/enigma/Rum4.htm)

http://www.skeptica.dk/2001/01_1.htm?FACTNet (http://www.skeptica.dk/2001/01_1.htm?FACTNet)


http://home.iae.nl/users/lightnet/religion/sai.htm (http://home.iae.nl/users/lightnet/religion/sai.htm)


http://www.saibabalinks.org/ (http://www.saibabalinks.org/)


warning graphic pictures...
http://home.no.net/anir/Sai/enigma/Murders.htm (http://home.no.net/anir/Sai/enigma/Murders.htm)


Take a look at the 5th one [ AKA the oldest trick in the book]

http://sathyasaibaba1.tripod.com/movie_clip.htm
haha, I guess no one replied to this one, well...I think after seeing both of them...
I don't think he is not God. Just because he can create vibhuti or sit there and make a necklace by using some cheap tricks does not make him God.

If Krishna truly came upon this earth, he would be so attractive, so opulent and so- Godly divine that it would be impossible for people to accept he is not God.

[BlackBillBlake]

Beautiful quote by the Mother. Thank you so much. Very refreshing. My intention was to share poetic words of Sri Aurobindo and the Mother. I do not feel these words would justify Sai Baba .... in fact I really don't have the time or attention to linger on what if's .... just enjoyed sharing a quote by admired spiritual teachers. I felt the 2 presented sutras would address both how siddhas can be dangerous if the desire body has not been transformed and how sex needs to be held as sacred until it drops away naturally. That is still what I feel the two misunderstandings are in Sai Babas case... its less a matter of my inductive reasoning and more a matter of wanting to share some heartfelt words.
Thanks for your kind words. I see now what you are saying. I too don't have time to concern myself with hypothetical scenarios - I do thogh have some concern that SB is misleading people.

Shanti.

BBB.

[BlackBillBlake]

haha, I guess no one replied to this one, well...I think after seeing both of them...
I don't think he is not God. Just because he can create vibhuti or sit there and make a necklace by using some cheap tricks does not make him God.

If Krishna truly came upon this earth, he would be so attractive, so opulent and so- Godly divine that it would be impossible for people to accept he is not God.
In the BBC 'Secret Swami' documentary, a stage magician was easily able to reproduce Baba's 'miracles'.
As for the advent of Sri Krishna or any other Avatar, It is nice to think people would recognize, but in the past they have failed to do so - hence the crucifixion of Jesus, and in Mahabarata not all accept Krishna, despite His Opulences. Only the pure soul can recognize the Avatar.

[matthew]

Can some one come off a cloud for a minute or two please..i mean no offence but the crimes in the link are real ...i don't realy care if he is the second coming or whatever ...... these crimes are real and need dealing with . He is too powerful ... no person should be that powerful .. If you look at what is going on and remove religeon would anybody be so blase about it ..... NO.

[BlackBillBlake]

Can some one come off a cloud for a minute or two please..i mean no offence but the crimes in the link are real ...i don't realy care if he is the second coming or whatever ...... these crimes are real and need dealing with . He is too powerful ... no person should be that powerful .. If you look at what is going on and remove religeon would anybody be so blase about it ..... NO.
No-one here on a cloud! Clearly, if Baba's crimes are real then he should be punished. If you read through this thread, you will find this view expressed by more than one poster. However, given SB's status, phoney as that may be, it seems very unlikely that any proper investigation will take place.
Without that - ok, we can say he's a phoney - a charlatan - but we cannot establish his guilt or otherwise without a full judicial enquiry.

[matthew]

However, given SB's status, phoney as that may be, it seems very unlikely that any proper investigation will take place.
Without that - ok, we can say he's a phoney - a charlatan - but we cannot establish his guilt or otherwise without a full judicial enquiry.

Sorry about that..a proper investigation should take place .. his status is self appointed and should not matter..ok so what can people do to make him face the situation after all this time..i just see a 'oh well life goes on' attitude ... i see reverance for the man not a lot of investigation of his non religous activities ?

[BlackBillBlake]

Sorry about that..a proper investigation should take place .. his status is self appointed and should not matter..ok so what can people do to make him face the situation after all this time..i just see a 'oh well life goes on' attitude ... i see reverance for the man not a lot of investigation of his non religous activities ?
The situation is this - the Indian autorities regard SB as beyond reproach - this was made clear in the 'Secret Swami' documentary I mentioned before, in an interview with an Indian govt. official. On one level you are quite right - SB is 'self-appointed' but his status is bouyed up by the devotion and belief of literally millions. Therefore it seems very unlikely that any kind of proper investigation will take place. What can be done? Not much I think, except to seek to confront Sb devotees with the very convincing allegations. However, even this doesn't promise much, as some say they already accept the allegations, but continue to follow Baba!
For my part, I strongly suspect that SB is guilty, but even were he to be proven innocent, his teachings are on a pretty low level anyway.
Perhaps some form of pressure could be brought to bear on the Indian authorities,in order to ensure an investigation does take place, but that's outside my field.

[matthew]

I think my actual problem is every religeon gets corrupted and their are people like SB that take advantage ....

For instance ..You get some person who lives in a cave ... then you get people that think thats a good idea and move into their own cave before you know it you have the benedictine monks...and all the greed and harm they brought about. If their is one religeon that is not tarnished in anyway i would like too hear about it.

If every person remained in their own personal cave ... the world would be a better place... I would rather get rid (religeon) of it all too be quite honest...its only causes harm unfortunatly.

[sylvanlightning]

Sorry about that..a proper investigation should take place .. his status is self appointed and should not matter..ok so what can people do to make him face the situation after all this time..i just see a 'oh well life goes on' attitude ... i see reverance for the man not a lot of investigation of his non religous activities ?

Dear One,

He will recieve what is coming to him. We are, after all, left with ourselves
when all is said and done. The Karma of those he has hurt will cause more Karma for him... as it does for us all. I don't choose to tune my attention into certain frequencies ... its like becoming the essence of what you eat. If reverance at all exists its for his selfless acts done for spirit. Let the law enact its trials if people have been hurt by lawlessness... I do not feel either passion or aversion for him. Some would say acts of darkness trigger responses of light. Know that these little ones who are harmed by preying sexual hungers will be karmic catalysts for change. If you want to help perhaps prayer or sending your energetic attention to those who have been harmed would be sattvic or positive action for you.

May all find their purer selves.

Namaste

[matthew]

Dear One,

He will recieve what is coming to him. We are, after all, left with ourselves
when all is said and done. The Karma of those he has hurt will cause more Karma for him... as it does for us all. I don't choose to tune my attention into certain frequencies ... its like becoming the essence of what you eat. If reverance at all exists its for his selfless acts done for spirit. Let the law enact its trials if people have been hurt by lawlessness... I do not feel either passion or aversion for him. Some would say acts of darkness trigger responses of light. Know that these little ones who are harmed by preying sexual hungers will be karmic catalysts for change. If you want to help perhaps prayer or sending your energetic attention to those who have been harmed would be sattvic or positive action for you.

May all find their purer selves.

If i believed in Karma i would be at ease ... i don't , so peoples actions reactions and inactions trouble me.

[BlackBillBlake]

Dear One,

... I do not feel either passion or aversion for him. Some would say acts of darkness trigger responses of light. Know that these little ones who are harmed by preying sexual hungers will be karmic catalysts for change. If you want to help perhaps prayer or sending your energetic attention to those who have been harmed would be sattvic or positive action for you.

May all find their purer selves.

Namaste
You are right. We should feel neither passion nor aversion for him. If anything, SB is to be pitied as much as those he is alleged to have abused. I do believe in karma, and I wouldn't want the kind of kartma Sb must be accumulating to adhere to my being in any way. The problem on another level is that it does to some extent affect everybody, since we are all interelated. As long as we live on a planet where there are millions sunk in deepest ignorance, and grasping at any chance they percieve to move out of it towards some higher, spiritual life, there is always the chance of exploitation by unscrupulous charlatans who prey on what is a very real need.
But they cheat themselves at the same time, because they are excluding the true light of the spirit, falsifying it, so they too can have no real access to it.
It is not SB only, it is the falsification and even perversion of the truth that is the real problem. He is evidently just one human channel through which this is being enacted.

[DualVision]

For instance ..You get some person who lives in a cave ... then you get people that think thats a good idea and move into their own cave before you know it you have the benedictine monks...and all the greed and harm they brought about. If their is one religeon that is not tarnished in anyway i would like too hear about it.

If every person remained in their own personal cave ... the world would be a better place... I would rather get rid (religeon) of it all too be quite honest...its only causes harm unfortunatly.Check it out. (http://home.hetnet.nl/~ex-baba/engels/articles/sanjay.htm)

The above article unearths stories of Sai Baba living in a cave during his youth and perforimg austerities there. These stories are not part of the usual hagiographies of Sai Baba and have been unearthed from two books by very old devotees of Sai Baba, one book contemporaneous and the other more recent.

Sai Baba is displayed in the article to be very upset at his cave being found and even performing violent actions on two children for the innocent discovery of it. What does he have to hide?

[matthew]

I know its not much but ... thanks. I did right a bit of a rant , but then thought it's realy not going to achieve a lot so ... 'thanks' is the better option. I think i covered what i think in my prev posts..anyway

[joe108]

Actually, many people simply have not cared to sort through all the muck regarding Sathya Sai Baba and try to find the unbiased truth.

This is the best site that gives an honest, sincere and open view regarding Sathya Sai Baba: http://www.vishvarupa.com/Fair-Is-Fair/Ex-Baba.com/exbaba-index.html (http://www.vishvarupa.com/Fair-Is-Fair/Ex-Baba.com/exbaba-index.html)

Witness Information: http://www.vishvarupa.com/Fair-Is-Fair/Ex-Baba.com/Witnesses/exbaba-witnesses.html



The Findings Information: http://www.vishvarupa.com/Fair-Is-Fair/Ex-Baba.com/Findings/exbaba-findings.html



Online Petition Information: http://www.vishvarupa.com/Fair-Is-Fair/



1993 Murders Info: http://www.vishvarupa.com/Fair-Is-Fair/Ex-Baba.com/Murders/exbaba-murders.html (http://www.vishvarupa.com/Fair-Is-Fair/Ex-Baba.com/Murders/exbaba-murders.html)

Why did UNESCO really Withdraw: http://www.vishvarupa.com/Fair-Is-Fair/Ex-Baba.com/unesco-withdraws.html (http://www.vishvarupa.com/Fair-Is-Fair/Ex-Baba.com/unesco-withdraws.html)


Hope that helps.

[DualVision]

Actually, many people simply have not cared to sort through all the muck regarding Sathya Sai Baba and try to find the unbiased truth.

This is the best site that gives an honest, sincere and open view regarding Sathya Sai Baba: Hope that helps.Actually, many people simply have not cared to sort through all the propaganda regarding Sathya Sai Baba and try to find the unbiased truth. Neither do they even attempt to refute any of the serious allegations of paedophilia, sexual molestation, murders, etc. Instead, they spend all of their time inventing contradictions that do not exist and pretending that their "findings" actually have some basis. In the meantime the issue of Sai Baba's guilt in crimes is not cleared up by the misguided efforts of so-called devotees.

Praising their site as "the best" is laughable when contradictions and inaccuracies have been pointed out in Gerald "Joe" Moreno's articles elsewhere. http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Alano]

This 'Joe', according to mails received by me from persons he has contacted, also lurks under the (self-flattering?) name 'Vishwarupa'' to run a Hindu-guru promotion website, where he presents photos of Swami Premananda (formerly of Tiruvannamalai). Just do a Google search and you will find it (as of 8 Nov. 04).
Swami Premananda was found guilty in a Madras Court of rape and murder (of two Sri Lankan girls, proven by DNA samples taken from a foetus in one dead girl's womb) and Premananda is now in prison serving two life sentences in Tamil Nadu. The full documentation of this and the court verdict is available on Indian websites.
This should be enough to show what Joe's fanatical guru-follower agenda is. He cares nothing for the law or justice in such cases, or he would have made Premananda's crimes clear to the public who may visit his website. His nit-picking at the Sai Baba exposures and complete avoidance of all the massive evidence he ignores is evidently in character.

[Shaman420]

Not only is Baba accused by many ex-devotees of sexual abuse, but it seems his 'miracles' can be easily replicated by any competent stage magician.


As for me being a skeptic, just let me assure you that I do believe in a spiritual power, even that certain teachers may well be worth paying attention to - I just don't think SB is one of them. Other gurus have fallen from their positions - it seems that in the case of SB his position ensures that the Indian authorities will not do any proper investigation into the alleged abuses.

Having now sat through an hour long tv documentary on all this, and seen and heard one of Baba's victims tell his story, I am more convinced than ever that he is a phoney - ie he is not an avatar, not a divine being, but a charlatan.

Unless of course you are happy with a god who has a big appetite for sex with underage boys.
Who are you to judge anyone's God? Or anyone period? If he has truely commited those misdeeds which I have yet to see proof of..and I have yet to see proof that he didn't commit them..then that is a choice he made, and there will be a consequence for it. But he who lives in a glass house shouldn't throw stones. Unless you too are so perfect that you have done no wrong, then you have no right to judge others who have done wrong. Live your life, and I will live mine, he will live his, but nothing but negativity comes the judgements you have made and are making.

[BlackBillBlake]

Who are you to judge anyone's God? Or anyone period? If he has truely commited those misdeeds which I have yet to see proof of..and I have yet to see proof that he didn't commit them..then that is a choice he made, and there will be a consequence for it. But he who lives in a glass house shouldn't throw stones. Unless you too are so perfect that you have done no wrong, then you have no right to judge others who have done wrong. Live your life, and I will live mine, he will live his, but nothing but negativity comes the judgements you have made and are making.
This is a bit much. I have said that I think that given the allegations, SB should be investigated. I have not pronounced him guilty. I have stated my opinion, based not on 'judgement' as you put it, but on discrimination, about the merits of SB's teaching and miracle mongering. If one just accepts blindly that because many people believe in someone they shouldn't be criticised, then we'd be in an impossible position.
It is not necessary to be morally perfect in order to discriminate the true from the false. And if 'the judgements I am making' are projecting negativity, they are also projecting positivity, in the sense of encouraging people to check thouroughly on the real nature of those they regard as spiritual authorities.
My posts here stem only from my concern that people are being duped, and that if SB has nothing to hide, lets have a full and proper public inquiry into the allegations. Until then, this is likely to remain a contentious issue.
And I may ask, who are you to judge me?