Why do people associate gays with Nazis???

[shevek]

I've noticed a number of postings all over the forums where people somehow get gays mixed up with Nazis, as if Nazis are somehow gay or pro-gay and/or gays have Nazi sympathies. Much but by no means all of this misunderstanding seems to originate with the under-18 crowd, many who seem to regard themselves as otherwise "gay-tolerant". http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/sad.gif

I'm aware that there was a brief experiment along these lines among the Nazis, but it got purged early on before WWII was even started in 1939 and most people aren't even aware of anything specific as such (being ignorant of most history anyway). It is a matter of record, and one that our own gov't (America) still chooses to ignore, that the Nazis sent gays to death camps alongside Jews. At least most Jews are willing to acknowledge that much.

The reason that our gov't doesn't like to talk about this is that homophobia (along with anti-Semitism) got going big time in this country about the same time. Not that we were exactly pro-gay before then, but the real witch hunts especially in the military got going during WWII and peaked during the McCarthy era of the 50s. Many people (my parents among them) wondered why we fought so hard against Nazis during WWII only to invite them into our own gov't afterward. The real heirs to the Nazis nowadays aren't gays but the Religious Right (who of course are in complete denial about this).

What can we do to raise awareness that gays and Nazis have nothing to do with each other, except as an unwelcome stereotype plus one tiny bunch of kooks that isn't accepted by either gays or Nazis as legit? Many of the kids especially seem to take the connection for granted. http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/confused.gif

Perhaps there is a misunderstanding of the BDSM (bondage discipline sadism masochism) community among nongays that needs to be clarified, it's possible that BDSM leather and uniform practices are getting unfairly confused with images of Nazis. Also gays are often perceived as being elitists and/or child molesting perverts by many kids, a stereotype that may be getting perpetuated at least in part by their intolerant parents.

Your thoughts on this?

[SageDreamer]

My thoughts?

The BDSM thing is a likely factor. Let me rush to say that I don't think that most BDSM enthusiasts are Nazis, but the confusion is real.

There will always be that small group out there. The more outrageous a group is--no matter how small--the easier it is to get publicity. Lesbians and gay men who look and act like everybody else just don't get media attention.

For that reason, I have my doubts about how effective a campaign to separate ourselves from the Nazis would be. It's going to draw more attention to the fringe groups, and some people might just see it as lies and propaganda from radical gay people. We might have more luck if the Nazis were to make an effort to dissociate themselves from gay people.

[shevek]

From what I understand the Nazis aren't too thrilled by this association either, except that the public perception works mostly in one direction (gay -> Nazi) and not the other. Besides, if the Nazis tried to openly deny any connection, who would believe them?

Besides, it's really difficult to get the facts across when people would rather believe in fictions. C'mon, if being happy meant facing the facts and dealing with them, the great majority of people would rather be miserable just so they can stay in denial. Do you think they will do any better when it's someone else's happiness on the line? Sorry about the cynicism, but I think it's completely warranted. :(

[Duncan]

How odd you should mention the BDSM thingie. I am always amazed when people make a very clear and definitive statement about their position and dominance and then seem perplexed by others who don't share the sentiment.
I don't know much about the NAZI/gay comparison. I don't care for the slave and master comparison. As a person who grew up Jewish I find slavery very offensive.

[Duck]

cause they both morally and for fuck sake, WRONG!!! WOOOOOT gays killl like nazis kill all should die you guys are bad at being super assholes, anyone good would've said something supporting Nazi's you dipshits

[bette]

Is a bad thing...Men, where d'you live? I'm curious about it. Here in Italy this equation gays=nazis doesn't exist, on the contrary: we're see (men and women) as liberal, open mind and Left Wing people (not comunist, but light mean), by homophobics too o_O

[soccergirl]

Here is a link with information on the connection between nazis and gays.

http://members.aol.com/mpwright9/gaynazi.html

[SpliffVortex]

http://www.thirdreich.net/Was_Hitler_Gay.html

[SpliffVortex]

At the same time, Rohm was a brutal boss, who gathered around him a dissolute crew who did not shrink from a bad reputation and actually prided themselves on their corruption, perverse debauchery and crimes of violence. Admittedly the functions and aims of the SA quickly brought out the criminal energies liberated by the First World War, but only under Rohm was there that ostentation which, so to speak, institutionalized them and finally stamped the SA as a kind of wrestling club with a political bias. Rohm had no qualms of conscience; murder did not worry him, and whereas Captain Weiss wrote that wherever Rohm appeared 'life' came into the place, often enough precisely the opposite was the case. When his close friend Edmund Heines was condemned by a court of law for murder, he called this, in angry ignorance of legal standards, 'an encroachment by formal justice upon a soldier's right to be "consciously one-sided"',(13) as he proudly proclaimed. In his memoirs he spoke with enthusiasm of the time when the soldier was 'everything', and openly demanded special privileges for his caste, 'the primacy of the soldier over the politician'.(14) His view that those in the opposing, ununiformed camp consisted exclusively of 'draft-dodgers, deserters and profiteers' was based on the argument that the only man entitled to lead was the one who, free from private interests, was ready to die for his principles - 'an outlook of staggering naivety', as has rightly been said, 'a kind of total military resentment against the civilian environment'.(15) He once stated that, since they shared the same activist attitude, he had more in common with the Communists than with the 'bourgeoisie', and in 1933 he told a British diplomat that he 'would reach an understanding more easily with an enemy soldier than with a German civilian; because the latter is a swine, and I don't understand his language'.(16)http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/marcuse/classes/33d/projects/homo/SanjeNaziExtermination.htm

[SpliffVortex]

"Night of the Long Knives"/ Murder of Ernst Rohm

The first known Nazi act against homosexuals was marked by the murder
of Ernst Rohm on 30 June, 1934: "The Night of the Long Knives." Rohm
began working with Hitler in 1919, and the two were close friends for fifteen
years. During that time, Rohm rose to SA Chief of Staff, transforming the
Brownshirt militia into "an effective fighting force five hundred thousand
strong." Hitler knew of Rohm's homosexuality since 1919. It became public
knowledge in 1925 when Rohm charged a hustler with theft in court. Hitler
covered up for him for years, despite many Nazis protesting that Rohm was
discrediting the entire Party, as they had a strong anti-gay policy. Hitler
needed Rohm's military skill and could rely on his loyalty. However, Hitler
relied on the Reichwehr leadership's support to become Fuhrer, and as part of
a compromise, Hitler granted Goring and Himmler
to murder Rohm along with many of Rohm's officers.
For public relations purposes, but mostly to subside the outrage felt
throughout the ranks of the SA, Hitler attempted to justify his actions
by pointing to Rohm's homosexuality.

http://www.fatherryan.org/holocaust/homogenocide/rohm.gif

[SpliffVortex]

The Night of the Long Knives

The four million brown shirted Nazi storm troopers, the SA (Sturmabteilung), included many members who actually believed in the 'socialism' of National Socialism and also wanted to become a true revolutionary army in place of the regular German Army.

But to the regular Army High Command and its conservative supporters, this potential storm trooper army represented a threat to centuries old German military traditions and the privileges of rank. Adolf Hitler had been promising the generals for years he would restore their former military glory and break the "shackles" of the Treaty of Versailles which limited the Army to 100,000 men and prevented modernization.

For Adolf Hitler, the behavior of the SA was a problem that now threatened his own political survival and the entire future of the Nazi movement.

The anti-capitalist, anti-tradition sentiments often expressed by SA leaders and echoed by the restless masses of storm troopers also caused great concern to big industry leaders who had helped put Hitler in power. Hitler had promised them he would put down the trade union movement and Marxists, which he had done. However, now his own storm troopers with their talk of a 'second revolution' were sounding more and more like Marxists themselves. (The first revolution having been the Nazi seizure of power in early 1933.)

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/ww2-pix/roehm.jpgThe SA was headed by Ernst Röhm, a battle scarred, aggressive, highly ambitious street brawler who had been with Hitler from the very beginning. Röhm and the SA had been very instrumental in Hitler's rise to power by violently seizing control of the streets and squashing Hitler's political opponents.

However, by early 1934, a year after Hitler came to power, the SA's usefulness as a violent, threatening, revolutionary force had effectively come to an end. Hitler now needed the support of the regular Army generals and the big industry leaders to rebuild Germany after the Great Depression, re-arm the military and ultimately accomplish his long range goal of seizing more living space for the German people.

The average German also feared and disliked the SA brownshirts with their arrogant, gangster-like behavior, such as extorting money from local shop owners, driving around in fancy news cars showing off, often getting drunk, beating up and even murdering innocent civilians.

At the end of February, 1934, Hitler held a meeting attended by SA and regular Army leaders including Röhm and German Defense Minister General Werner von Blomberg. At this meeting Hitler informed Röhm the SA would not be a military force in Germany but would be limited to certain political functions. In Hitler's presence, Röhm gave in and even signed an agreement with Blomberg.

However, Röhm soon let it be know he had no intention of keeping to the agreement. In April he even boldly held a press conference and proclaimed, "The SA is the National Socialist Revolution!!"

Within the SA at this time was a highly disciplined organization known as the SS (Shutzstaffel) which had been formed in 1925 as Hitler's personal body guard. SS chief Heinrich Himmler along with his second-in-command, Reinhard Heydrich, and Hermann Göring, began plotting against Röhm to prod Hitler into action against his old comrade, hoping to gain from Röhm's downfall.

On June 4, Hitler and Röhm had a five hour private meeting lasting until midnight. A few days later Röhm announced he was taking a 'personal illness' vacation and the whole SA would go on leave for the month of July. He also convened a conference of top SA leaders for June 30 at a resort town near Munich which Hitler promised to attend to sort things out.

On June 17, Vice Chancellor Franz von Papen, who had helped Hitler become Chancellor, stunned everyone by making a speech criticizing the rowdy, anti-intellectual behavior of the SA and denouncing Nazi excesses such as strict press censorship. Papen also focused on the possibility of a 'second revolution' by Röhm and the SA and urged Hitler to put a stop to it. "Have we experienced an anti-Marxist revolution in order to put through a Marxist program?" Papen asked.

His speech drastically increased the tension between German Army leaders and SA leaders and further jeopardized Hitler's position. But for the moment Hitler hesitated to move against his old comrade Röhm.

A few days later, June 21, Hitler went to see German President Paul von Hindenburg at his country estate. Hindenburg was in failing health and now confined to a wheelchair. Hitler met with the Old Gentleman and Defense Minister Blomberg and was stiffly informed the SA problem must be solved or the president would simply declare martial law and let the German Army run the country, effectively ending the Nazi regime.

Meanwhile, Himmler and Heydrich spread false rumors that Röhm and the SA were planning a violent takeover of power (putsch).

On June 25, the German Army was placed on alert, leaves canceled and the troops confined to the barracks. An agreement had been secretly worked out between Himmler and Army generals ensuring cooperation between the SS and the Army during the coming action against the SA. The Army would provide weapons and any necessary support, but would remain in the barracks and let the SS handle things.

On Thursday, June 28, Hitler, Göring, and Goebbels attended the wedding of Gauleiter Josef Terboven in Essen. Hitler was informed by phone that he faced the possibility of a putsch by Röhm's forces and also faced the possibility of a revolt by influential conservative non-Nazis who wanted Hindenburg to declare martial law and throw out Hitler and his government.

Hitler then sent Göring back to Berlin to get ready to put down the SA and conservative government leaders there. The SS was put on full alert.

Friday, June 29, Hitler made a scheduled inspection tour of a labor service camp and then went to a hotel near Bonn for the night. He was informed by Himmler that evening by phone that SA troops in Munich knew about the coming action and had taken to the streets.

Hitler decided to fly to Munich to put down the SA rebellion and confront Röhm and top SA leaders who were gathered at the resort town of Bad Wiessee near Munich.

Arriving in Munich near dawn, Saturday, June 30, Hitler first ordered the arrest of the SA men who were inside Munich Nazi headquarters, then proceeded to the Ministry of the Interior building where he confronted the top SA man in Munich after his arrest, even tearing off his insignia in a fit of hysteria.

Next it was on to Röhm. A column of troops and cars containing Hitler, Rudolf Hess, and others, sped off toward Röhm and his men.

At this point, the story is often told (partly conceived by the Nazis) of Hitler arriving at the resort hotel about 6:30 a.m. and rushing inside with a pistol to arrest Röhm and other SA leaders.

However it is more likely the hotel was first secured by the SS before Hitler went near it. Hitler then confronted Röhm and the others and sent them to Stadelheim prison outside Munich to be later shot by the SS.

An exception was made in the case of Edmund Heines, an SA leader who had been found in bed with a young man. When told of this, Hitler ordered his immediate execution at the hotel.

A number of the SA leaders, including Röhm, were homosexuals. Prior to the purge, Hitler for the most part ignored their behavior because of their usefulness to him during his rise to power. However, their usefulness and Hitler's tolerance had now come to an end. Later, their homosexual conduct would be partly used as an excuse for the murders.

Saturday morning about 10 a.m. a phone call was placed from Hitler in Munich to Göring in Berlin with the prearranged code word 'Kolibri' (hummingbird) that unleashed a wave of murderous violence in Berlin and over 20 other cities. SS execution squads along with Göring's private police force roared through the streets hunting down SA leaders and anyone on the prepared list of political enemies (known as the Reich List of Unwanted Persons).

Included on the list: Gustav von Kahr, who had opposed Hitler during the Beer Hall Putsch of 1923 - found hacked to death in a swamp near Dachau; Father Bernhard Stempfle, who had taken some of the dictation for Hitler's book Mein Kampf and knew too much about Hitler - shot and killed; Kurt von Schleicher, former Chancellor of Germany and master of political intrigue, who had helped topple democracy in Germany and put Hitler in power - shot and killed along with his wife; Gregor Strasser, one of the original members of the Nazi Party and formerly next in importance to Hitler; Berlin SA leader Karl Ernst, who was involved in torching the Reichstag building in February, 1933; Vice-Chancellor Papen's press secretary; Catholic leader Dr. Erich Klausener.

Saturday evening, Hitler flew back to Berlin and was met at the airport by Himmler and Göring in a scene later described by Hans Gisevius, a Gestapo official, present.

"On his way to the fleet of cars, which stood several hundred yards away, Hitler stopped to converse with Göring and Himmler. Apparently he could not wait a few minutes until he reached the Chancellery?From one of his pockets Himmler took out a long, tattered list. Hitler read it through, while Göring and Himmler whispered incessantly into his ear. We could see Hitler's finger moving slowly down the sheet of paper. Now and then it paused for a moment at one of the names. At such times the two conspirators whispered even more excitedly. Suddenly Hitler tossed his head. There was so much violent emotion, so much anger in the gesture, that everybody noticed it?Finally they moved on, Hitler in the lead, followed by Göring and Himmler. Hitler was still walking with the same sluggish tread. By contrast, the two blood drenched scoundrels at his side seemed all the more lively?"

As for Ernst Röhm - on Hitler's order he had been given a pistol containing a single bullet to commit suicide, but refused to do it, saying "If I am to be killed let Adolf do it himself." Two SS officers, one of whom was Theodore Eicke, commander of the Totenkopf (Death's Head) guards at Dachau, entered Röhm's cell after waiting fifteen minutes and shot him point blank. Reportedly, Röhm's last words were "Mein Führer, mein Führer!"

On Sunday evening, July 1, while some of the shooting was still going on, Hitler gave a tea party in the garden of the Chancellery for cabinet members and their families to give the appearance things were getting back to normal.

By 4 a.m., Monday, July 2, the bloody purge had ended. The exact number of murders is unknown since all Gestapo documents relating to the purge were destroyed. Estimates vary widely from 200 or 250, to as high as 1,000 or more. Less than half of those murdered were actually SA officers.

In one case, a man named Willi Schmidt was at home playing the cello. Four SS men rang the doorbell, entered and took him away, leaving his wife and three young children behind. They had mistaken Dr. Willi Schmidt, music critic for a Munich newspaper, for another Willi Schmidt on the list. Dr. Schmidt was assassinated and his body later returned to his family in a sealed coffin with orders from the Gestapo that it should not be opened.

On July 13, Hitler gave a long speech to the Nazi controlled Reichstag (Parliament) in which he announced seventy four had been shot and justified the murders.

"If anyone reproaches me and asks why I did not resort to the regular courts of justice, then all I can say is this: In this hour I was responsible for the fate of the German people, and thereby I became the supreme judge of the German people."

"It was no secret that this time the revolution would have to be bloody; when we spoke of it we called it 'The Night of the Long Knives.' Everyone must know for all future time that if he raises his hand to strike the State, then certain death is his lot."

By proclaiming himself the supreme judge of the German people, Hitler in effect placed himself above the law, making his word the law, and thus instilled a permanent sense of fear in the German people.

The German Army generals, by condoning the unprecedented events of the Night of the Long Knives, effectively cast their lot with Hitler and began the long journey with him that would eventually lead them to the brink of world conquest and later to the hanging docks at Nuremberg after the war.

A few weeks after the purge, Hitler rewarded the SS for its role by raising the SS to independent status as an organization no longer part of the SA. Leader of the SS, Reichsführer Heinrich Himmler now answered to Hitler and no one else. Reinhard Heydrich was promoted to SS Gruppenführer (Lieutenant-General).

From this time on, the SA brownshirts would be diminished and all but disappear eventually as its members were inducted into the regular Army after Hitler re-introduced military conscription in 1935.

The SS organization under Himmler and Heydrich would greatly expand and become Hitler's instrument of mass murder and terror throughout the remaining history of the Third Reich, another eleven years.

[SpliffVortex]

Next time you think all gays or homosexuals are limp wrist and femenine = You BETTER THINK TWICE.
The Night of the Long Knives

(June 29-30, 1934)

By 1934 Adolf Hitler (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/hitlertoc.html) appeared to have complete control over Germany, but like most dictators, he constantly feared that he might be ousted by others who wanted his power. To protect himself from a possible coup, Hitler used the tactic of divide and rule and encouraged other leaders such as Hermann Goering (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/goering.html), Joseph Goebbels (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/goebbles.html), Heinrich Himmler (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/himmler.html) and Ernst Röhm (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Roehm.html) to compete with each other for senior positions.

One of the consequences of this policy was that these men developed a dislike for each other. Röhm (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Roehm.html) was particularly hated because as leader of the Sturm Abteilung (SA) he had tremendous power and had the potential to remove any one of his competitors. Goering (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/goering.html) and Himmler (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/himmler.html) asked Reinhard Heydrich (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/Heydrich.html) to assemble a dossier on Röhm (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Roehm.html). Heydrich (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/Heydrich.html), who also feared him, manufactured evidence that suggested that Röhm (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Roehm.html) had been paid 12 million marks by the French to overthrow Hitler.

Hitler liked Ernst Röhm (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Roehm.html) and initially refused to believe the dossier provided by Heydrich (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/Heydrich.html). Röhm (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Roehm.html) had been one of his first supporters and, without his ability to obtain army funds in the early days of the movement, it is unlikely that the Nazis would have ever become established. The SA under Roehm's leadership had also played a vital role in destroying the opposition during the elections of 1932 and 1933.

However, Adolf Hitler (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/hitlertoc.html) had his own reasons for wanting Röhm (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Roehm.html) removed. Powerful supporters of Hitler had been complaining about Röhm (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Roehm.html) for some time. Generals were afraid that the Sturm Abteilung (SA), a force of over 3 million men, would absorb the much smaller German Army into its ranks and Röhm (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Roehm.html) would become its overall leader.

Industrialists such as Albert Voegler, Gustav Krupp, Alfried Krupp, Fritz Thyssen and Emile Kirdorf, who had provided the funds for the Nazi victory, were unhappy with Roehm's socialistic views on the economy and his claims that the real revolution had still to take place. Many people in the party also disapproved of the fact that Röhm (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Roehm.html) and many other leaders of the SA were homosexuals.

Adolf Hitler (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/hitlertoc.html) was also aware that Röhm (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Roehm.html) and the SA had the power to remove him. Hermann Goering (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/goering.html) and Heinrich Himmler (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/himmler.html) played on this fear by constantly feeding him with new information on Roehm's proposed coup. Their masterstroke was to claim that Gregor Strasser, whom Hitler hated, was part of the planned conspiracy against him. With this news Hitler ordered all the SA leaders to attend a meeting in the Hanselbauer Hotel in Wiesse.

Meanwhile Goering (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/goering.html) and Himmler (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/himmler.html) were drawing up a list of people outside the SA that they wanted killed. The list included Strasser, Kurt von Schleicher, Hitler's predecessor as chancellor, and Gustav von Kahr, who crushed the Beer Hall Putsch (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/beer.html) in 1923.

On June 29, 1934, Hitler, accompanied by the Schutzstaffel (SS) (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/sstoc.html), arrived at Wiesse, where he personally arrested Ernst Röhm (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Roehm.html). During the next 24 hours, 200 other senior SA officers were arrested on the way to Wiesse. Many were shot as soon as they were captured, but Hitler decided to pardon Röhm (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Roehm.html) because of his past services to the movement. However, after much pressure from Hermann Goering (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/goering.html) and Heinrich Himmler (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/himmler.html), Hitler agreed that Röhm (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Roehm.html) should die. At first Hitler insisted that Röhm (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Roehm.html) should be allowed to commit suicide but, when he refused, Röhm (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Roehm.html) was shot by two SS (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/sstoc.html) men.

Röhm (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Roehm.html) was replaced by Victor Lutze as head of the SA. Lutze was a weak man and the SA gradually lost its power in Hitler's Germany. The Schutzstaffel (SS) (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/sstoc.html) under the leadership of Himmler (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/himmler.html) grew rapidly during the next few years, replacing the SA as the dominant force in Germany.

The purge of the SA was kept secret until it was announced by Adolf Hitler (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/hitlertoc.html) on July 13. It was during this speech that Hitler gave the purge its name: Night of the Long Knives (a phrase from a popular Nazi song). Hitler claimed that 61 had been executed while 13 had been shot resisting arrest and three had committed suicide. Others have argued that as many as 400 people were killed during the purge. In his speech, Hitler explained why he had not relied on the courts to deal with the conspirators: "In this hour I was responsible for the fate of the German people, and thereby I become the supreme judge of the German people. I gave the order to shoot the ringleaders in this treason."

The Night of the Long Knives was a turning point in the history of Hitler's Germany. Hitler had made it clear that he was the supreme ruler of Germany who had the right to be judge and jury, and had the power to decide whether people lived or died.

[SpliffVortex]

This should take the myth away that gays can not be formidable soldiers . or Leaders. This also does not means all gays were Nazis . even tho had Rhom not die theres was a chance Ernst Rhom might eliminate Hitler in the long run and WWII and even the Elimination of the jews would had never happen if Rhom would had acted a bit more wisely.

[SpliffVortex]

My conclusion is = A almost a powerfull homosexual military leader could had prevented WWII . and the slaughter of jews . Ernst Rohm was looking at the socialism path and not the Ideas Hitler had in mind. Hitler was far quicker to act. Hitler was not going to let any one beat him to the Supreme leader of Germany and almost the World.

[SpliffVortex]

My thoughts?

The BDSM thing is a likely factor. Let me rush to say that I don't think that most BDSM enthusiasts are Nazis, but the confusion is real.

There will always be that small group out there. The more outrageous a group is--no matter how small--the easier it is to get publicity. Lesbians and gay men who look and act like everybody else just don't get media attention.

For that reason, I have my doubts about how effective a campaign to separate ourselves from the Nazis would be. It's going to draw more attention to the fringe groups, and some people might just see it as lies and propaganda from radical gay people. We might have more luck if the Nazis were to make an effort to dissociate themselves from gay people. Spartans were mainly gay and bixexual warriors this have been proven over and over by historians . Gays have been around where Power and wealth have been for thousands of years.

[SpliffVortex]

From what I understand the Nazis aren't too thrilled by this association either, except that the public perception works mostly in one direction (gay -> Nazi) and not the other. Besides, if the Nazis tried to openly deny any connection, who would believe them?

Besides, it's really difficult to get the facts across when people would rather believe in fictions. C'mon, if being happy meant facing the facts and dealing with them, the great majority of people would rather be miserable just so they can stay in denial. Do you think they will do any better when it's someone else's happiness on the line? Sorry about the cynicism, but I think it's completely warranted. :(http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/ww2-pix/roehm.jpgThe SA was headed by Ernst Röhm, a battle scarred, aggressive, highly ambitious street brawler who had been with Hitler from the very beginning. Röhm and the SA had been very instrumental in Hitler's rise to power by violently seizing control of the streets and squashing Hitler's political opponents.

However, by early 1934, a year after Hitler came to power, the SA's usefulness as a violent, threatening, revolutionary force had effectively come to an end. Hitler now needed the support of the regular Army generals and the big industry leaders to rebuild Germany after the Great Depression, re-arm the military and ultimately accomplish his long range goal of seizing more living space for the German people.

The average German also feared and disliked the SA brownshirts with their arrogant, gangster-like behavior, such as extorting money from local shop owners, driving around in fancy news cars showing off, often getting drunk, beating up and even murdering innocent civilians.

At the end of February, 1934, Hitler held a meeting attended by SA and regular Army leaders including Röhm and German Defense Minister General Werner von Blomberg. At this meeting Hitler informed Röhm the SA would not be a military force in Germany but would be limited to certain political functions. In Hitler's presence, Röhm gave in and even signed an agreement with Blomberg.

However, Röhm soon let it be know he had no intention of keeping to the agreement. In April he even boldly held a press conference and proclaimed, "The SA is the National Socialist Revolution!!"

[SpliffVortex]

How odd you should mention the BDSM thingie. I am always amazed when people make a very clear and definitive statement about their position and dominance and then seem perplexed by others who don't share the sentiment.
I don't know much about the NAZI/gay comparison. I don't care for the slave and master comparison. As a person who grew up Jewish I find slavery very offensive. Actually had Ernst Rhom found out Hitler was about to double cross him theres a good chance Hitler would had been murder by Ernst Rhom loyals and he had thousands if not millions and a good chance jews would had never been a target for mass extermination , this dont fly well with socialism and thats what Ernst Rhom was.

[Piney]

Adolph Hither was a Vegitarian and a Teetotaler,

any background on this aspect of his charachter ?

[SpliffVortex]

A vegetarian German in 1930s = i dont think so.

[bette]

A vegetarian German in 1930s = i dont think so.
I've read it lot of times he was. Don't know if is true, but the voice was this. He was appasionate about indian culture too, but this doesn't mean all men with something like him (vegetarian, indian culture-lover, painting or with mustaches) are nazis. So, for me doesn't exist too equation "gay=nazis/nazis=gay". Maybe 'cause in country I live this is something absolutely absurd.

I don't deny some nazis were repress gays, homophobical gay men and so, but this doesn't justificate equation.

PS: sorry for my bad English again :)

[SpliffVortex]

Theres is no doubt that was gay Nazis Ernst Rohm was and he was just as powerfull as Hitler . Hitler had to get rid of him becouse with time Ernst Rhom would taking over or even eliminate Hitler.

[Piney]

Have you seen the movie Downfall ?

[SpliffVortex]

No .

[SpliffVortex]

Looks like a intresting movie = of course the Hollywood version . what went on the last days of Berlin makes = save private Ryan look like kids stuff. But Hollywood well never make such film and neither of Dresden or Hiroshima.

[SpliffVortex]

The WWII Dresden Holocaust -
'A Single Column Of Flame'
2-6-2


"You guys burnt the place down, turned it into a single column of flame. More people died there in the firestorm, in that one big flame, than died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined." --Kurt Vonnegut, Jr On the evening of February 13, 1945, an orgy of genocide and barbarism began against a defenseless German city, one of the greatest cultural centers of northern Europe. Within less than 14 hours not only was it reduced to flaming ruins, but an estimated one-third of its inhabitants, possibly as many as a half a million, had perished in what was the worst single event massacre of all time. ___ Toward the end of World War II, as Allied planes rained death and destruction over Germany, the old Saxon city of Dresden lay like an island of tranquillity amid desolation. Famous as a cultural center and possessing no military value, Dresden had been spared the terror that descended from the skies over the rest of the country.

In fact, little had been done to provide the ancient city of artists and craftsmen with anti-aircraft defenses. One squadron of planes had been stationed in Dresden for awhile, but the Luftwaffe decided to move the aircraft to another area where they would be of use. A gentlemen's agreement seemed to prevail, designating Dresden an "open city."

February 13/14 1945: Holocaust over Dresden, known as the Florence of the North. Dresden was a hospital city for wounded soldiers. Not one military unit, not one anti-aircraft battery was deployed in the city. Together with the 600.000 refugees from Breslau, Dresden was filled with nearly 1.2 million people. Churchill had asked for "suggestions how to blaze 600.000 refugees". He wasn't interested how to target military installations 60 miles outside of Dresden. More than 700.000 phosphorus bombs were dropped on 1.2 million people. One bomb for every 2 people. The temperature in the centre of the city reached 1600 o centigrade. More than 260.000 bodies and residues of bodies were counted. But those who perished in the centre of the city can't be traced. Approximately 500.000 children, women, the elderly, wounded soldiers and the animals of the zoo were slaughtered in one night.

http://www.rense.com/1.imagesC/bomter.jpgOn Shrove Tuesday, February 13, 1945, a flood of refugees fleeing the Red Army 60 miles away had swollen the city's population to well over a million. Each new refugee brought fearful accounts of Soviet atrocities. Little did those refugees retreating from the Red terror imagine that they were about to die in a horror worse than anything Stalin could devise.

Normally, a carnival atmosphere prevailed in Dresden on Shrove Tuesday. In 1945, however, the outlook was rather dismal. Houses everywhere overflowed with refugees, and thousands were forced to camp out in the streets shivering in the bitter cold.

However, the people felt relatively safe; and although the mood was grim, the circus played to a full house that night as thousands came to forget for a moment the horrors of war. Bands of little girls paraded about in carnival dress in an effort to bolster warning spirits. Half-sad smiles greeted the laughing girls, but spirits were lifted.

No one realized that in less than 24 hours those same innocent children would die screaming in Churchill's firestorms. But, of course, no one could know that then. The Russians, to be sure, were savages, but at least the Americans and British were "honorable."

So, when those first alarms signaled the start of 14 hours of hell, Dresden's people streamed dutifully into their shelters. But they did so without much enthusiasm, believing the alarms to be false, since their city had never been threatened from the air. Many would never come out alive, for that "great democratic statesman," Winston Churchill--in collusion with that other "great democratic statesman," Franklin Delano Roosevelt--had decided that the city of Dresden was to be obliterated by saturation bombing.

What where Churchill's motives? They appear to have been political, rather than military. Historians unanimously agree that Dresden had no military value. What industry it did have produced only cigarettes and china.

But the Yalta Conference was coming up, in which the Soviets and their Western allies would sit down like ghouls to carve up the shattered corpse of Europe. Churchill wanted a trump card--a devastating "thunderclap of Anglo-American annihilation"--with which to "impress" Stalin.

That card, however, was never played at Yalta, because bad weather delayed the originally scheduled raid. Yet Churchill insisted that the raid be carried out--to "disrupt and confuse" the German civilian population behind the lines.

Dresden's citizens barely had time to reach their shelters. The first bomb fell at 10:09 p.m. The attack lasted 24 minutes, leaving the inner city a raging sea of fire. "Precision saturation bombing" had created the desired firestorm. A firestorm is caused when hundreds of smaller fires join in one vast conflagration. Huge masses of air are sucked in to feed the inferno, causing an artificial tornado. Those persons unlucky enough to be caught in the rush of wind are hurled down entire streets into the flames. Those who seek refuge underground often suffocate as oxygen is pulled from the air to feed the blaze, or they perish in a blast of white heat--heat intense enough to melt human flesh. One eyewitness who survived told of seeing "young women carrying babies running up and down the streets, their dresses and hair on fire, screaming until they fell down, or the collapsing buildings fell on top of them."

http://www.rense.com/1.imagesC/dd1.jpgThere was a three-hour pause between the first and second raids. The lull had been calculated to lure civilians from their shelters into the open again. To escape the flames, tens of thousands of civilians had crowded into the Grosser Garten, a magnificent park nearly one and a half miles square.

The second raid came at 1:22 a.m. with no warning. Twice as many bombers returned with a massive load of incendiary bombs. The second wave was designed to spread the raging firestorm into the Grosser Garten.

It was a complete "success." Within a few minutes a sheet of flame ripped across the grass, uprooting trees and littering the branches of others with everything from bicycles to human limbs. For days afterward, they remained bizarrely strewn about as grim reminders of Allied sadism.

At the start of the second air assault, many were still huddled in tunnels and cellars, waiting for the fires of the first attack to die down. At 1:30 a.m. an ominous rumble reached the ears of the commander of a Labor Service convoy sent into the city on a rescue mission. He described it this way:

"The detonation shook the cellar walls. The sound of the explosions mingled with a new, stranger sound which seemed to come closer and closer, the sound of a thundering waterfall; it was the sound of the mighty tornado howling in the inner city." MELTING HUMAN FLESH Others hiding below ground died. But they died painlessly--they simply glowed bright orange and blue in the darkness. As the heat intensified, they either disintegrated into cinders or melted into a thick liquid--often three or four feet deep in spots.

Shortly after 10:30 on the morning of February 14, the last raid swept over the city. American bombers pounded the rubble that had been Dresden for a steady 38 minutes. But this attack was not nearly as heavy as the first two.

However, what distinguished this raid was the cold-blooded ruthlessness with which it was carried out. U.S. Mustangs appeared low over the city, strafing anything that moved, including a column of rescue vehicles rushing to the city to evacuate survivors. One assault was aimed at the banks of the Elbe River, where refugees had huddled during the horrible night.

In the last year of the war, Dresden had become a hospital town. During the previous night's massacre, heroic nurses had dragged thousands of crippled patients to the Elbe. The low-flying Mustangs machine-gunned those helpless patients, as well as thousands of old men, women and children who had escaped the city.

When the last plane left the sky, Dresden was a scorched ruin, its blackened streets filled with corpses. The city was spared no horror. A flock of vultures escaped from the zoo and fattened on the carnage. Rats swarmed over the piles of corpses.

A Swiss citizen described his visit to Dresden two weeks after the raid: "I could see torn-off arms and legs, mutilated torsos and heads which had been wrenched from their bodies and rolled away. In places the corpses were still lying so densely that I had to clear a path through them in order not to tread on arms and legs." **************** Kurt Vonnegut was in Dresden when it was bombed in 1945, and wrote a famous anti-war novel, Slaughterhouse Five, in 1969. http://www.rense.com/1.imagesC/vonnegut.jpgIn February 1945, Vonnegut was witness to another pretty good imitation of Mt Vesuvius; the firebombing by Allied forces of Dresden, the town in eastern Germany, during the last months of the Second World War. More than 600,000 incen-diary bombs later, the city looked more like the surface of the moon. Returning home to India-napolis after the war, Vonnegut began writing short stories for magazines such as Collier's and The Saturday Evening Post, and, seven years later, published his first novel, Player Piano. ... Finally, in 1969, he tackled the subject of war, recounting his experiences as a POW in Dresden, forced to dig corpses from the rubble. The resulting novel was Slaughterhouse Five. Banned in several US states - and branded a "tool of the devil" in North Dakota - it carried the snappy alternative title: "The Children's Crusade: A Duly Dance with Death, by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr, a fourth-generation German-American now living in easy circumstances on Cape Cod (and smoking too much) who, as an American infantry scout hors de combat, as a prisoner of war, witnessed the fire bombing of Dresden, Germany - the Florence of the Elbe - a long time ago, and survived to tell the tale: this is a novel somewhat in the telegraphic schizopfrenic manner of tales of the planet Tralfamodre, where the flying saucers come from, Peace." .... In December 1944, Vonnegut was captured by the German army and became a prisoner of war. In Slaughterhouse Five, he describes how he narrowly escaped death a few months later in the firebombing of Dresden. "Yes, by your people [the English], may I say," he insists. "You guys burnt the place down, turned it into a single column of flame. More people died there in the firestorm, in that one big flame, than died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. I'm fond of your people, on occasion, but I was just thinking about 'Bomber Harris, who believed in attacks on civilian populations to make them give up. A hell of a lot of Royal Air Force guys were ashamed of what Harris had made them do. And that's really sportsmanship and, of course, the Brits are famous for being good sports," he concedes. The Independent, London, 20 December 2001, p. 19 *************** The death toll was staggering. The full extent of the Dresden Holocaust can be more readily grasped if one considers that well over 250,000 -- possibly as many as a half a million -- persons died within a 14-hour period, whereas estimates of those who died at Hiroshima range from 90,000 to 140,000.*

Allied apologists for the massacre have often "twinned" Dresden with the English city of Coventry. But the 380 killed in Coventry during the entire war cannot begin to compare with over 1,000 times that number who were slaughtered in 14 hours at Dresden. Moreover, Coventry was a munitions center, a legitimate military target. Dresden, on the other hand, produced only china--and cups and saucers can hardly be considered military hardware!

It is interesting to further compare the respective damage to London and Dresden, especially when we recall all the Hollywood schmaltz about the "London blitz." In one night, 1,600 acres of land were destroyed in the Dresden massacre. London escaped with damage to only 600 acres during the entire war.

In one ironic note, Dresden's only conceivable military target -- its railroad yards -- was ignored by Allied bombers. They were too busy concentrating on helpless old men, women and children.

If ever there was a war crime, then certainly the Dresden Holocaust ranks as the most sordid one of all time. Yet there are no movies made today condemning this fiendish slaughter; nor did any Allied airman--or Sir Winston--sit in the dock at Nuremberg. In fact, the Dresden airmen were actually awarded medals for their role in this mass murder. But, of course, they could not have been tried, because there were "only following orders."

This is not to say that the mountains of corpses left in Dresden were ignored by the Nuremberg Tribunal. In one final irony, the prosecution presented photographs of the Dresden dead as "evidence" of alleged National Socialist atrocities against Jewish concentration-camp inmates!

Churchill, the monster who ordered the Dresden slaughter, was knighted, and the rest is history. The cold-blooded sadism of the massacre, however, is brushed aside by his biographers, who still cannot bring themselves to tell how the desire of one madman to "impress" another one let to the mass murder of up to a half million men, women and children.

[SpliffVortex]

Have you seen the movie Downfall ? http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/downfall/trailers.php

[SpliffVortex]

Too many Homophobes in this forums so they wont dare to express any opinion here.

[Green]

Too many Homophobes in this forums so they wont dare to express any opinion here.
Really?


Its all propoganda. I've never heard any of that though. The average under 18 person hates gays. Go into some game chatroom and say something to piss somebody off, it wont be 5 seconds before your called a "fag".

[SpliffVortex]

Really?


Its all propoganda. I've never heard any of that though. The average under 18 person hates gays. Go into some game chatroom and say something to piss somebody off, it wont be 5 seconds before your called a "fag". i been around they dont fool me.