Seeds vs. Cloning

[Trader]

My first crops were started with seeds. Very vigorous growth...lots of leaves, thick stalkes, etc. By the time the seed-starts were at 2' to 3' they looked like small bushes.

In comparison, the clones I took from a huge, vigorous Northern Light mom, have grown in a much more 'spindly' fashion. They're tall enough but hardly carry 1/4th the leaf quantity or thickness of stems, stalks, etc., at almost the same height.

I DO think I might have transplanted them from the grow cubes into the 4" pots a bit soon, but it's been several weeks and their overall size still is noticeably lessor.
(I've also noticed from a few clone/plants that have died (at more than 12" tall) that their root system was not anywhere developed as much as a seed-start. Possibly this is indicative that the root system wasn't "up to speed" yet the plant took off growing upwards.)

Just wondering if others have had similar results or have comments as to the differences between seed starts vs. cloning.

Thanks to all "Bud-meisters"

[rangerdanger]

A clone is still part of the donor plant.
Done correctly, clones should grow the same as the donor plant.

[meangreen]

I have found a clone will never live up to its seed counterpart in any situation.A cutting will go thru a degree of stress,however minimal that will effect the plants chemistry and rarely mirror it. I continue to and will always be from seed,ya cant go wrong.

[tiedye420]

Clones are only useful when you cannot reproduce the seed you need to continue propagating a particular strain, or special pheno.
If ya cant get anymore of those beans- keep it alive by cloning.
I had a nlxkush mom get stole this year or id be running that right now, she was huge!
And I have an original trainwreck, and East Coast Sour Diesel im getting ready to cut from, as i sample the clones that did not make mom status

[tiedye420]

romulan is next. 6 dollars at a club for one clone. It lets me try a strain to see if it is really "all that"...

[grouchy_old_dude]

QoQ meangreen, "from seed every grow?" NOT bustin' yer balls, but the only ppl that I know, that grow from seed every time, do it because they can't clone.
To say that a cut "changes" it's genetic structure due to stress, and "never lives up to it's seed counterpart", simply isn't true. A clone is the same plant. Clones taken from a "well selected" Mother, under good environmental conditions, actually exceed in yeild and efficeincy, to seed plants, "at my house"
Seeds on the other hand, will seldom, if ever, "mirror" their parentage. Even very well stabalized strains carry recessive genes that can and will exhibit themelves from time to time.
Personally, I make seeds only when I anticipate that the cross is going to enhance the quality/charateristic of a strain, through selection. IMHO, serious consideration should be taken in the selection of every parent, every time a seed is made.
In the wild, the early males always win the breeding contest. without proper selection according to RC Clarke, these early males cause "acclimitization" of the variety. and a decrease in drug quality. this is the "dominant" state of cannabis. if it were otherwise, why would we need breeders? all you would have to do is let the plants do there own thing and they would become more potent over time, but they don't. the only way drug varieites ever get better is through human intervention in the natural order.
Recessive males are the key to improving drug strains. Shanti uses them, nevil did it and sensi continues to use the same techniques. Dominant males will induce ploidy shift after a number of generations causing many hermaphrodites. Hermaphrodism is a dominant trait in cannabis

[rangerdanger]

Right on Grouchy.
And let's not leave out the reason I clone--
all females.
Every old-time guerilla grower knows how annoying it is when you spend all spring and summer caring for plants, digging holes, amending soil, hauling water and buying nutrients for plants that turn out to be male.
And I'm sure I'm not the only indoor grower who's planted seeds and had most of the plants turn out to be male.

[grouchy_old_dude]

For Sure RD. I hear rookies complaining pretty often how, "My biggest bestus plant turned male" It did't turn male, it simply was a male. All of my OD guerilla plants are clones for the very same reasons.
I reserve the indoor, very well controlled, environment for breeding. No rogue males or ditchweed contaminating anything.

[Trader]

Thanks for those exchanges folks. Quite the debate.

I believe, as stated in original post, that I transplanted the rockwool cubes a bit prematurely, and should have stayed with "root enhancing" formula rather than the typical grow formula I used for the seed start. I also thought that maybe the summer heat...(which has the blowers coming on more often)...is making the CO2 harder to keep at optimum levels.
I'm in the process of buying vented, enclosed "Valuebrite" hoods shortly.

I AM hoping that several of the clones will eventually "make" a good mom, as this particular plant was heads & shoulders above the others.

If I can afford it...and make the venting work...I'm going to try and put another 1000hps on the lightmover in the flower room.

TKS again...

Oh...ps... A seed that forms on an UN-germinated female plant can't grow, right?

[meangreen]

No ball bustin takin.I have never had a clone grow as vigorous as the plant taken from,very close but never exact.I have and use a aero EZ cloner,and have used rockwool,plain water,soil,rapid rooters with none ever completely matching the donor in growth rate or pheno expression.There is a factual expression widely used in plant biology that refers to cloning."Cloning isnt exact,over generations the cloned will be riddled with genetic flaws due to errors being exemplified thru each cloning".Every old school grower I associate with will tell ya the same thing I stated before,from seed is better then any clone.You can repeat anything you have read from marijuana botony,my opinion will remain the same.

[meangreen]

Trader,that seed is selfed and will 99% carry over the hermie gene if germed.

[rangerdanger]

The name of the game is max. yield out of a given space.
For growing pot to smoke (as opposed to crossing a certain strain, etc.), I don't know a single experienced grower who prefers seeds over clones.
I'll take 10 guarenteed female clones over 10 seeds any day.

[grouchy_old_dude]

That's kewl meangreen. I wasn't attempting to sway your opinion. Only stateing, in the best non-argumentive manner that I could, "my opinion"
The world would be a boring place if we all had the same opinions.
We could argue to no end. You won't change mine, I won't change yours.

But I will say this, and it ain't no quote from Robert Clark. I've had Mother plants for as long as 3 years, then successfully cloned a second generation mother and kept her for a couple more years, without noteing any "genetic drift". I did however notice a depletion in potency and vigor after several(probably 20) generations of clones. I attributed that to the age of the plant. After all, they are only naturally suppose to live for 9-11 months.
I've cloned hundreds of plants, and never noted any great difference in structure or potency from the Mother, under similar environmental conditions.
It is highly more likely to have recessive(non-desirable)genes/phenotypes expressing themselves in seed plants than clones. But these are only my experiences and opinions.

[grouchy_old_dude]

Trader,that seed is selfed and will 99% carry over the hermie gene if germed.
We agree 100% on this one, anyway.

[smileyjohn]

From a process and time perspective, I'd much rather clone than grow from seed - no waiting for sprouts, dealing with sexing, etc. Plus, I haven't gone through enough generations yet, I guess, to see any degradation with my clones.

[meangreen]

Who makes up the other half of "we" Grouchy.

[tiedye420]

Besides
Cloning is only for those who cant make thier own seeds. he he he.....No really folks.
I do both, Im doing a perpetual seed in soil grow. I plant new seeds every month. I sometimes plant seeds twice a month. I can sex most my strains at 3 weeks.
(in fact im germing some seeds i selected from 3,000 + seeds, old 10-15 year old seeds. These ones i got this year were in freezer storage, the ones last year were from the same growers- but from a different second hand source. The ones I selected were tan to olive, speckled not spotted. Huge and fat- with an oval shape- like little flying saucers. Then i selected some ones similar, but more brown to dark olive, with a funny little crease down one side. Afghani seeds generally have this trait.
They are popping little roots now, i'll stick em in dirt tomorrow.
I reselected 65 seeds, out of a few hundred i culled from the pile carefully.Im after the 80's roadkill- and pre-soviet afghani's... I may get lucky. My best sativa was culled from these same seeds. juicyfruit highland thai.)
The ancient tribes that grew drug strains selected their seeds the same way, not online man. But from the village seedstock they selected seeds with certain charecteristics. fOR THOUSAND OF YEARS CHILDREN WERE TAUGHT HOW TO FARM CANNABIS THIS WAY.(oops on caps) In 20 years of online seed availability this art has almost been forgotten.
Im really not into everyone having the same plant, whether traits are lost or kept depends on if you cut during a growth spurt mainly. Cloning can be useful- I personally cannot wait to do a full run of trainwreck and sour diesel from clone. But I mainly clone to keep strains I did not make, going in my garden as is .So i can work on my strains and keep focused.
But yeah trader- even from my strains- whatever strain. The rootsystems from seedgrows are always stronger in soil.
Cloning may be fine for hydro, because you dont need such big roots. But my preferance is from seed. I can sex my seeds at 3 weeks, it takes a couple weeks to root a clone.
Why not start seeds a week earlier than you would cut the next cycle?
tie

[rangerdanger]

If you can sex plants that are only 3 weeks old, you have an ability to do something that no other person I know can accomplish, inc. me, and some of these growers have over 30 years of experience, inc. me.
In any event, that's 3 weeks wasted time as far as I'm concerned, because what I plant takes 0 days to sex, because they're female clones.

I can tell from reading your posts that you are really into strains and breeding. And I am not critisizing you in the least.
But for most growers, who bottom line are mainly interested in effect (the stone) rather than history of genotypes, strain bases, parentage, ect., imo clones are the way to go.

[Trader]

I'm hoping..."fingers crossed"...that when I take a clone OF a clone and try to get the grow room more duplicative of the original grow period that I will have something more indicative of the original mom.

As to seeds, Meang, how do you account for the differences when they all grow up? Some are male, some female, some great...some average, so how do you "plan" a crop?

TKS

[meangreen]

I have my hands in alot of cookie jars so to speak.I always start 25-50 beans and when alls said and done I will finish out 12-18 ladies I have selected.Unless its something I want to carry on and select a male for future filial endeavers I rarely keep anything but the best females of a batch to finish.I rarely grow the same strain as I tend to get burnt out on the same smoke.

[tiedye420]

IMHO
Any grower with much experience growing indica dominate strains,knows they can be sexed at 3 weeks and these have been on 18/6 ever since. Not really even that indica dom, you can see the columbian in her. This is a batch of ten, 8 turned female, I used a backward hermie for the father.These are F1 generation. yes i know that means filial first. Meangreen suggested using the backward hermie a year ago.Thanks mean.
I have 6 other crosses from the dad. It was chocolatexhashplantxhogsbreath.
Most growers i know make thier own strains from imported beans. I have never bought a seed in my life, and only one clone cause i just had to try romulan.
here are my five week old sexed beauties. Some test crosses reverting too.
and a couple at 3 weeks already being sexed.
Also My original TW and sour diesel moms in veg.The true TW has been clone only for 20 years.

[Trader]

Thanks All....

Quite the learning experience here.

And pardon my ignorance, but what does "selfed" mean, and by "hermie" I guess that means hermaphrodite? So okay...this means that a plant coming from a non-germinated female plant is going to be screwed up?

TKS

[meangreen]

Females that sport some male flowers and in turn pollinate itself (selfed).

[Trader]

And plants from these "selfed" seeds produce a HIGH likelyhood of hermaphrodites, right?

(And this is not good, right?)

TKS

[tiedye420]

OK THIS IS MY EXPERIENCE with this.
If you take the pollen from the random hermie- what you would "self" the plant with.
This pollen dusted on a normal female will produce all female seeds.
But if you try using the same metod on the next generation- you may lock in hermie traits. Selving is Really not a preferred method for most breeders, yes you can cause hermies to come about. It really is only good for one generation.
Also, the manner in which you cause your female to random pollenate has a lot to do with it. Stress from light leaks or heat or whatever can cause stressed pollen- which is more likely to cause hermies in subsequent generations.
A choice male is the best bet for breeding. Selving is when you cannot produce a male -no matter what ,that will match your female.IMHO
I have a selved strain that I refuse to plant, I got enough problems without having to deal with hermies.

[Trader]

Thanks.

My next batch of clones are going to have to be better taken care of. When I've pulled the dead clones up...(that grew up a foot and then died)...I see that the root system was very minimal. This is the problem I think I'm seeing regarding why the clones aren't growing with the same vigorous leaf, branch, etc., growth that the mother plant did.
I must have used too much regular NPK ferts, and not enough root stimulant ferts. Also, they might have moved into the veg. room too soon and would have been better off under fluorescents longer.

Anyone with excellent knowledge of cloning, ferts for cloning, etc., please jump right in with a comment.

TKS

[tiedye420]

from what I have found
both seedlings and clones respond well to a bloom formula for the first week, or even two. Then switch to a veg formula, also superthrive will help immensely.At any stage, he he he.They should be under flouro for 3 weeks or more....

[Trader]

Thanks tiedye...

I really think that must have been the problem. The roots on these clones are nowhere near as developed as my seed starts, but they "took off" growing upwards and put on too many early leaves...which seemed to stress the respiration rate...and then would die at around a foot or so tall.
I even cut the leaves in half...like the books show...but that only saved a few, not all.

I'll look for some SuperThrive.

Also, does the same thing apply when I take new clones off whatever plant I decide to be the new mother? ie; thick, lower branches with good nodes, etc.?

TKS

[grouchy_old_dude]

Hermis procreate hermis. No consiencious breeder, with an agenda to further improve on a strain or genetics in general, would ever use a naturally herm to further propogate.
Femenized seeds are NOT made with plants that are stressed into hermophradism.
Hermaphrodism is a dominant trait in cannabis. you might be able to cover it up in an f1 through hybrid vigor, but subsequent generations will really tell you what the breeder was up to.
The key to improving drug strain cannabis lies in "Recessive" males. Shanti uses them, Nevil used them and Sensi still uses them.

[grouchy_old_dude]

Any mj "can" be forced to show it sex at 3 weeks. That doesn't mean it is prudent. Mj is not sexually mature at 3 weeks. ie you aren't sexing "naturally" at 3 weeks from seed.

[tiedye420]

Cannabis Indica from high mountainous regions has been grown for centuries in a 3 to maximum 4 month growing season. Hindu Kush for example..
A strain that comes from a 3 month long growing season will naturally sex at three weeks, without stressing it.
My male showed sex at three weeks outdoor- I put it in 12/12 because i need to use it for breeding. No stress there.
cannabis sativa however, will not even think of showing sex until 3 to 5 moths old.
Dude I been growing landrace strains for 30 years or more.
I still learn all the time though, teach me something I dont know, instead of picking on what I believe to be my honest opinion that im entitled to.
The growers I do know make thier own seeds/strains.
S0me autoflower at birth without ruderalis genes in them.

[tiedye420]

This is mostly from seed here.
The crazy looking sativa dom in the bottom right hand corner is Original Train Wreck from clone. The original wreck has been clone only since the 80's...