very liberal hindu...

[peacefulwind14]

Hi again. I have another question. I consider myself a very liberal hindu because I find myslef reading the Bhagavad/Uddavah Gita and the upinshads and realizing that almost everything that I believe is written in the pages. Yet, there is a problem...


I know that the purpose of a hindus life is to reach liberation. Yet, I'm not searching for liberation. I'm just trying to be a moral, kind guy living my life. I don't disagree with the idea that this is all just an illusion but I still feel as though when I die, that will be it. I won't be forced to reincarnate to cleanse my karma (perhaps this is just wishful thinking, not wanting to believe it so I can kind of slack off). But my question is, can you be a hindu without really believing that it is imperative to strive for liberation. Dosen't that kind of defeat the purpose? Thanks everyone.

[philuk]

del

[BlackBillBlake]

Hi again. I have another question. I consider myself a very liberal hindu because I find myslef reading the Bhagavad/Uddavah Gita and the upinshads and realizing that almost everything that I believe is written in the pages. Yet, there is a problem...


I know that the purpose of a hindus life is to reach liberation. Yet, I'm not searching for liberation. I'm just trying to be a moral, kind guy living my life. I don't disagree with the idea that this is all just an illusion but I still feel as though when I die, that will be it. I won't be forced to reincarnate to cleanse my karma (perhaps this is just wishful thinking, not wanting to believe it so I can kind of slack off). But my question is, can you be a hindu without really believing that it is imperative to strive for liberation. Dosen't that kind of defeat the purpose? Thanks everyone.This is a difficult question. In a way, asking if you can be a Hindu without seeking liberation is a bit like asking if you can be a Buddhist and not seek enlightenment, or a Christian and not seek salvation.
But it's not quite that clear cut - and I think there are two main reasons for this.
Firstly, the question arises: what is Hinduism? One could reply that it is the indigenous spiritual culture of the Indian sub-continent - but the fact is that it has influenced most aspects of traditional Indian culture, because it recognizes no rigid division of the 'religious' and the 'secular'. Hence Indian art, science, law and many other aspects of life, have all stemmed from the spiritual texts and so on.
On the other hand, we can say that within Indian culture is 'religion', and this exists on various levels. The key really is in the concept of yoga, practices aimed at spiritual realization. Not all concieve of the goal of yoga as liberation, although really, it is considered so by most. Some bhakti yogis say the goal is to serve God - but even then, to attain to a position of serving God truly is to attain liberation. Only a liberated person can really serve God, because ony that person knows Him. There are also other lines of yoga, but in the end all agree that some form of realization is the goal.
The question also arises : can a westerner, born outside India, be or become a Hindu? In some ways, the answer in most cases seems to be no. Or at least in the sense of a total immersion in Indian culture. Can such a person gain anything from Hinduism, or be part of it? Yes. Because really, it's not so much the external culture, but the spiritual realization and so on that is Hinduism. A western person can practice yoga, accept Indian scriptures as authoritative, even attain the highest realization and be accepted as a Guru by native Indians. This was done by Yogi Sri Krishnaprem, who was English by birth and culture. Perhaps most of us can't go that far - but anyone who is sincere can get enormous benefit from yoga practices. And from the teachings of the great sages and saints of India.
And there's no harm in study of any aspect of Indian culture - but for the most part, we in the west have to look for ways of integrating it, making it part of our own culture. It is the essence we want.

Also, on the topic of liberation - it's not just after death or in the next life that this is to be sought after. The whole point is that our present consciousness is false, an illusion with which we are identified, and all our problems in life come from this single cause - avidya, or ignorance. The only solution is vidya - knowledge, and that implies liberation from the illusion.

I know this is a bit rambling, but I hope it helps. I hope too that others will add some comments here.

*shanti - peace*

[Jedi]

just wishful thinking, not wanting to believe it so I can kind of slack off). But my question is, can you be a hindu without really believing that it is imperative to strive for liberation. Dosen't that kind of defeat the purpose? Thanks everyone.
Be the best person you can be and finally when you reach that pinnacle of perfection in yourself, then you can decide... until then you are a hindu.

[BlackBillBlake]

Be the best person you can be and finally when you reach that pinnacle of perfection in yourself, then you can decide... until then you are a hindu.
So, whilst trying to be good etc, assuming one lives that long, how is one defined as a Hindu if not seeking moksha, the stated goal of Hinduism?

Also, a quote from William Blake is relevant here: "he who waits to be righteous before entering the saviour's kingdom will never enter in there"
By that I think Blake means that it is only through entry into the saviour's kingdom (salvation, liberation, moksha) that one can concievably be righteous or good. All else is simple ignorance and illusion.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

So, whilst trying to be good etc, assuming one lives that long, how is one defined as a Hindu if not seeking moksha, the stated goal of Hinduism?

Also, a quote from William Blake is relevant here: "he who waits to be righteous before entering the saviour's kingdom will never enter in there"
By that I think Blake means that it is only through entry into the saviour's kingdom (salvation, liberation, moksha) that one can concievably be righteous or good. All else is simple ignorance and illusion.
I read this book once...and it was a parable book...and in between one of the parables one of the characters kept stating how he was looking for moksha...but the wise teacher told him that if he lived his life the best he could and to love God sincerely, and unceasingly...but not looking for any rewards, not looking for moksha...and one day he would recieve it... your post made me think of that... ::shrug::

[BlackBillBlake]

I read this book once...and it was a parable book...and in between one of the parables one of the characters kept stating how he was looking for moksha...but the wise teacher told him that if he lived his life the best he could and to love God sincerely, and unceasingly...but not looking for any rewards, not looking for moksha...and one day he would recieve it... your post made me think of that... ::shrug::
Good point. But what I meant was that although we may try to do good and be good, without realization it is only our limited human idea of good. And often, that may run quite counter to real good.
My main point though is this: if one is not looking for liberation, realization, moksha, salvation - whatever name one gives it - what is there in Hinduism? Indian culture perhaps, but is that really Hinduism? As I said in my initial reply, it's like saying one is a Buddhist and not seeking enlightenment. I just can't see anything other than a kind of starry-eyed romanticism in such a position!

I should add though that all this applies only to those born outside Hindu culture. For native Indians it's a different story.
Imagine an Indian person bought up in a Hindu culture who wanted to be a Christian - could we in all honesty tell them that they can be Christian and not seek salvation? It seems to me something of a contradiction in terms. They might reply - oh, but I like the Church architecture, Icons, and so on. But really that's only superficial forms. The core of the thing is in salvation.

It's like saying-ok, there is God, and I believe in Him, but despite all these methods of coming closer to Him, getting even to know Him intimately, and despite His own words in Bhagavad Gita that to come to Him is the only real goal of this human existence, I prefer to just believe and carry on in the cherished illusion.........There can be no security in such a position.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Oh ok...I see what you're saying... I think

I suppose that it is perhaps...the methods of coming close to Him that...besides the Indian culture...that would make you a Hindu...if it were not for looking for salvation....the path you choose to come close to Him...but even that could be for the point of salvation...its like a very big gray area...that perhaps depends on the person and how they see it all... you know....

I hope some of that made sense... lol...

[BlackBillBlake]

I'll try to put it in very simple terms Nicole - it's like George Harrison said in his intro to Prabhupada's 'Krishna' book - "if there's a God, I want to know Him".

That seems to me the only legitimate reason for one born outside India (or the Hindu diaspora) to take to Hinduism.
I just can't see any other reason why.... and knowing God implies liberation. It is liberation.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

I'll try to put it in very simple terms Nicole - it's like George Harrison said in his intro to Prabhupada's 'Krishna' book - "if there's a God, I want to know Him".

That seems to me the only legitimate reason for one born outside India (or the Hindu diaspora) to take to Hinduism.
I just can't see any other reason why.... and knowing God implies liberation. It is liberation.
Got it... :) Thank you for simpler terms....sometimes I need them. ;) lol...but yes...now I understand what you are saying.... :)

[BlackBillBlake]

Got it... :) Thank you for simpler terms....sometimes I need them.
You do yourself an injustice!

Also, just to add to what I said, Hindus don't come much more 'liberal' than our George.:)

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

You do yourself an injustice!

Also, just to add to what I said, Hindus don't come much more 'liberal' than our George.:)
lol...nah...I call it learning ;)

And yes...I would def. agree with you...George def. did it his own way... :)

[Bhaskar]

A Hindu who doesn't seek liberation is like a vegetarian who eats chicken. He is simply kidding himself.

Having said that, the guy originally posted this thread implied that he wanted to live his life in the best way he can, doing good for all. That is the same thing as seeking liberation, because only a man of realization can know what is good for all, let alone do it. Only an enlightened person lives life the best possible way.

Then again, the poster says he has read the geeta and Upanishads and finds almost all his beliefs reflected there. Yet he does not have desire for the highest truth. The only conclusion I can arrive at is that he has not understood anything of what he read. After all the upanishads and geeta deal exclusively with brahmavidya and the ways to achieve that union with the Self.

My advice to this person is to take time to reflect on what has been read, study deeper, read the commentaries of masters like Sri Aurobindo, Swami Chinmayananda, Adi Shankara and Swami Vivekananda.

Just reading and saying I believe these things is useless. If you really believed what was written there, you would having a burning desire for nothing but liberation.

[Jedi]

So, whilst trying to be good etc, assuming one lives that long, how is one defined as a Hindu if not seeking moksha, the stated goal of Hinduism?

Reading scriptures and just understanding them is not enough and does not make one a hindu, one has to apply them and I can say I have trouble with that alot in my life. If he is like me, he is atleast paying attention to things that "look good" in the scriptures: self control, removal of anger, good sense of tolerance, selfless action (for example community service) , refraining from nonsense lust and focusing on our current duty etc.

If he is trying to achieve those things in his life then I am sure he will come to realize the obvious truths that the scriptures talk about later on. but first he has to become sattvic, it involves not worrying about things like whether one is a hindu ... I mean does it really matter at the end- who we are? We are all taking the bus to eternal life, so who cares if you are in it for the salvation, moksha or just for fun? We are all going to the same destination.

[BlackBillBlake]

A Hindu who doesn't seek liberation is like a vegetarian who eats chicken. He is simply kidding himself.
.
Bravo Bhaskar! I agree fully.
I'm just a bit concerned that some (westerners) may label themselves 'Hindu' just because they are looking for some alternative culture, and they find the more superficial spects of it attractive without really understanding the basis of it. But as I said before, I don't think one can say one is following Sanatana Dharma unless one is seeking God, however one concieves of that.
I also worry a bit that perhaps there might be some idea in some people that Hinduism is in some way 'different' than other spiritual paths - I mean for instance that some may reject Christianity in favour of Hinduism not realizing that it's all one and the same thing ultimately.
Myself, I have found value in many different teachings - Hindu, Christian, Buddhist, Sufi and others. But really only on the basis of a quest for truth and for God.

[Chodpa]

Read this book.


http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/hbh/

[peacefulwind14]

look guys, I think you misunderstand me. I don't want the label of a Hindu to look cool or any bullshit like that. I was just saying when I read some of the scriptures I agree with what some of them are saying but see this whole "reaching God thing" (usually I wouldn't address this concept in such sarcastic terms but your posts kind of pissed me off) as really just training the mind to release nuerochemicals that are associated with the feeling of spirituality and, basically fooling yourselves just as every other religious person does. So I just wanted to do good (and yes, perhaps I don't know what the "ultimate good" is but God did give me a conscience) and not worry our think that it was imperative to reach a perhaps fabricated wholeness before I die. This is why I would be considered a "very liberal hindu" because I don't neccesarily beleive that what you are reaching is the highest truth, just a truth you fabricated, though this dosen't make it less desirable. Anyway I probably don't make much sense, I'm just rambling and didn't really think any of this through and just realized as I was typing that it is kind of pointless to even reply to this. I really don't care what you think anyway (save the 'then why did you post in the first place crap' please).
Oh, and BlackBill, ok, you don't agree that someone can be a hindu and not search for liberation. I fuckin get it bro.

Well, that is my rant. As I read over it I see that I've allowed my emotions to get the better of me and that it really dosen't express how I feel very well, if making any sense at all. But like I said, fuck it. I don't care.

[peacefulwind14]

Before anyone replys I just want to say that I'm sorry for the burst of negative and unthoughtful energy which is my previous post. I guess I'm going through some weird stuff and can't control my mind as well as I was once able. The belief remains but I will try to be more calm.

[Bhaskar]

Of course you got mad. We pricked your balloon. When we are shown a mirror and we dont like what we see, we want to break the mirror.

Look peacefulwind, you are free to believe what you want. But all that stuff you said about the concept of god being fabricated and neurochemicals and stuff, is completely antithetic to what any hindu scripture says. You don't agree with the philosophy, you don't agree with the goals. So I am now curious to know, exactly which parts of it DO you agree with anyway?

[BlackBillBlake]

Don't worry about 'offending' me. You asked, I responded according to what I understand about Hinduism. I'm sorry if it upset you.

As Bhaskar said, you're free to believe what you want.

[BlackBillBlake]

. I was just saying when I read some of the scriptures I agree with what some of them are saying but see this whole "reaching God thing" (usually I wouldn't address this concept in such sarcastic terms but your posts kind of pissed me off) as really just training the mind to release nuerochemicals that are associated with the feeling of spirituality and, basically fooling yourselves just as every other religious person does. So I just wanted to do good (and yes, perhaps I don't know what the "ultimate good" is but God did give me a conscience) and not worry our think that it was imperative to reach a perhaps fabricated wholeness before I die. .
Actually, that's the materialist view. That all spiritual experience is simply a less well known function of the brain. It's not really compatible with most Hindu philosophy in any major sense. Nor is the idea that it's all 'imagination' which is what a 'fabricated wholeness' would amount to.

[peacefulwind14]

The thing is that I actually did believe the spiritual aspects of the scriptures for a very long time. Of course you can reach God. Of course you are part of God. But than I began to lose faith a little bit. I read a book on neurochemisty and and looked into the cases of recreated NDE's and began to doubt. I began to wonder. Like I said I had always been a very spiritual person but I also believe in science. Perhaps you interpret that as being a weak spiritual person. I began to get into my head that hey, perhaps spirituality dosen't directly come from the higher being, or perhaps that higher being is something material, "seperate" from the full being of God, and began to question. (I'm not sure what I believe anymore but perhaps death is the only way to reach God in all his glory).

Bhaskar, actually I believed in almost all of what the scriptures said for a while. I just had some question's about reincarnation. But as you can imagine, that didn't give me much comfort throughout my daily life and unfortunately that time in my life was pretty busy and I kind of fell into a deppression of sorts. Now I'm trying to burst out of the remnants of the deppression, get back into spiritualiy any way I can (this is where just being kind and reasonable come in; it's the only way I know).

So you've seen two sides of me. My first post was me trying to get back into spirituality (Hinduism) yet still struggling with the neurochemical idea. I said perhaps this is all fake, but I can still benefit from all the different forms of Yoga (mantra, Hatha, because of the chemicals they invoke) yet there really is no need to search for liberation.

I just want to let everyone know that I still believe in God, but NOW (notice the emphasis, ,meaning present tense) I'm not sure any form of spirituality really reaches Him as a whole, his whole being.

And lastly, I just want to say that I think we should leave the negativity behind us. So, I have to ask a favor. When you reply to this please, let's just have a conversation, not a heated argument. I know I have offended some and have played a big part in the negativity from my earlier post, but in all fairness, the anger in this thread was not initialy mine. Let's just talk. If any of you are on a spiritual path (and obviously many of you are) you will know that this is the best thing to do.

[philuk]

Maybe your'd benefit more from a zen buddhist approach,


"Zen has from the beginning made clear and
insisted upon the main thesis, which is to see into the work of
creation; the creator may be found busy moulding his universe, or
he may be absent from his workshop, but Zen goes on with its own
work. It is not dependent upon the support of a creator; when it
grasps the reason for living a life, it is satisfied. Hoyen
(died 1104) of Go-so-san used to produce his own hand and ask his
disciples why it was called a hand. When we know the reason,
there is Satori and we have Zen. Whereas with the God of mysticism
there is the grasping of a definite object; when you have God,
what is no-God is excluded. This is self-limiting. Zen wants
absolute freedom, even from God. "No abiding place" means that
very thing; "Cleanse your mouth when you utter the word Buddha"
amounts to the same thing. It is not that Zen wants to be
morbidly unholy and godless, but that it recognizes the
incompleteness of mere name. Therefore, when Yakusan
(aka Yaoshan Weiyan, Yueh-shan Wei-jen, 751-834)
was asked to give a lecture, he did not say a word, but instead
come down from the pulpit and went off to his own room. Hyakujo
merely walked forward a few steps, stood still, and then opened
his arms, which was his exposition of the great principle."

[philuk]

As far as I've seen only select portions of a NDE can be reproduced through drugs/strong magnetic fields/etc. (such as perhaps a bright light, or the feeling of a tunnel), but the experience as a whole cannot (at least not at this point.) If there has been a study where people have been given whole near death experiences rather than certain near-death impressions, I'd love to hear about it.

[peacefulwind14]

philuk, that is really interesting. The idea of Zen outside of God is very intriguing. Thank you very much.

[peacefulwind14]

to my knowledge I believe you are correct philuk. Parts of the near death experience can be recreated, the tunnel of white light, OBE's, etc but the bonafide NDE is still "in the making" let's say. It just got me thinking though about what if in 50 years these scientist really have found how to recreate THE near death experience and can explain everything the brain does in death. That's knid of scary, but hey, the truth is the truth I guess.

[philuk]

There are limits to science. Some regions of our minds can't be explored intentionally yet.

The aim of zen, once the ego is seen as the illusion it is, all your questions and wants will slide away. And you can abide in the moment of now (nothing else exists), one with source/god.

I believe this to be the aim of Hinduism and all religions.

[BlackBillBlake]

The thing is that I actually did believe the spiritual aspects of the scriptures for a very long time. Of course you can reach God. Of course you are part of God. But than I began to lose faith a little bit. I read a book on neurochemisty and and looked into the cases of recreated NDE's and began to doubt. I began to wonder. Like I said I had always been a very spiritual person but I also believe in science. Perhaps you interpret that as being a weak spiritual person. I began to get into my head that hey, perhaps spirituality dosen't directly come from the higher being, or perhaps that higher being is something material, "seperate" from the full being of God, and began to question. (I'm not sure what I believe anymore but perhaps death is the only way to reach God in all his glory).


And lastly, I just want to say that I think we should leave the negativity behind us. So, I have to ask a favor. When you reply to this please, let's just have a conversation, not a heated argument. I know I have offended some and have played a big part in the negativity from my earlier post, but in all fairness, the anger in this thread was not initialy mine. Let's just talk. If any of you are on a spiritual path (and obviously many of you are) you will know that this is the best thing to do.
Just to say that I certainly haven't felt offended by anything you or anyone else has said. I haven't had an experience of a heated argument here - and also, I don't think you're being negative - if that's what came across then it's just that I haven't expressed myself well.

There is no way in any rational sense that anyone can 'prove' that what are classified as spiritual experiences are not simply the function of different or higher circuts of the brain. Thats true in the areas you mention, and also in the case of psychedelic drugs. The converse is true also - no one can prove conclusively that they rest only on a material basis.
The problem arises that if we accept that this is all purely brain activity, then with the death of the brain, that is the end of consciousness - in other words, there is no immortality of the soul, and indeed, no soul as we think of it - only brain activity. The old materialist notion is that the brain secretes thought as the liver secretes bile.

But one can view this from many different perspectives. I don't think you are 'spiritually weak' for having questions and looking at different possibilities. The opposite in fact. I don't think it's good to only ever look at one point of view, or never to question one's beliefs. That's the path to blind dogmatism.
Faith is not only a thing of the mind. It isn't just a mental assent to a set of propositions, dogmas or beliefs. It is something deeper. It is in the heart, and deeper also than the heart. The mind can put various constructions on it, there is no one and only 'correct' philosophy. Many different sets of views may embody different aspects of truth.
Certain spiritual experiences give a very great faith and confidence in their authenticity, and to my consciousness, they seem to come from 'above' (I use the term only metaphorically) and from outside the manifest universe of matter, life and mind.
But the Divine is there in the cells of the body too, and in all matter.
I can say no more. I'm not asking you to accept my view, but to continue to seek for truth with which you are comfortable. If the methods of Indian Yoga can be of help in that, well and good. If not, look for something which can.
Please understand that this is offered in a spirit of friendly discussion.

*peace*

[peacefulwind14]

thank you blackbill.

[Bhaskar]

I understand the period of questioning that every seeker must initially go through. By Gurudev's grace, that period for me was very smooth, I recieved answers intuitively, almost as fast as I could conjure up questions.

Perhaps you are right, that thought is a mere secretion of the brain. But that would still be the mechanism by which the divine expresses in you, just as evolution is the mechanism by which God created man.

And I agree with philuk, you would probably find some frm of buddhism far more beneficial at this point.

God bless you.

[BlackBillBlake]

I understand the period of questioning that every seeker must initially go through. By Gurudev's grace, that period for me was very smooth, I recieved answers intuitively, almost as fast as I could conjure up questions.

Perhaps you are right, that thought is a mere secretion of the brain. But that would still be the mechanism by which the divine expresses in you, just as evolution is the mechanism by which God created man.

And I agree with philuk, you would probably find some frm of buddhism far more beneficial at this point.

God bless you.
I hope you understand Bhaskar that I was only stating what the materialist position is - that is not my own view at all.

As for Buddhism, I agree there's probably some benefit to be gained by checking it out, but since the goal - nirvana or enlightenment is equivalent to Moksha or liberation, I think Peacefulwind would only come up against the same difficulty.