When reading articles, debates and accounts of real-life stories relating to home-schooling, I've noticed that one of the most-commonly-touted arguments against it is that of socialization (..or the alleged lack thereof). To summarize, this argument - in it's most common form as far as I'm aware - basically claims that homeschooling is undesirable because it provides less opportunity for a child to meet individuals of it's own age. But I believe that advocates of standard schooling overlook (..or ignore perhaps?) something very important - which is the form of socialization that takes place in schools. There is no denying that socialization occurs in schools, but it is the kind of socialization that the rational person wants? And does it inhibit the possibility of other forms of socialization occurring? - forms which are perhaps just as important as the form which occurs in schools? In my view, school is guilty of a crime you could call age-segregation. I think there is an old saying which offers something along the lines of: "Point your finger, and your other four fingers point back at you". And I think it's applicable here. Opponents of home-schooling often don't hesitate to point out what they claim to be shortcomings in the homeschooling/unschooling lifestyle; but in doing so, they are merely bringing up an issue on which they have more to be ashamed about then those they criticize. Limiting a child's social contact almost entirely to people of his/her own age (..within a bracket of a few months) - except during a short period of 'break-time' each day - is as absurd a proposed means of socialization as I can almost imagine. And it gets even better (read 'worse') when you contemplate the situation in single-sex schools. In these environments, you have not only age-segregation, but a form of sex-segregation as well! And, having gone to a single-sex school for five years myself, I speak from experience. How - according to any sensible criteria - can a milieu where one's social contact is limited almost entirely to people of the same age and sex, claim to offer a comprehensive, or even positive, form of socialization? It's a total farce in my view. It seems to me that social contact - playing games etc. - with children of the same age is natural and (perhaps more importantly) healthy - surely not a malevolent phenomenon anyway - but: (i) I see little or no benefit to be gained from segregating the sexes (..I think it's being done to prevent academic distractions is a grievous wrong - totally off-the-wall in my view), and (ii) a system which limits it to this is surely deficient! There are myriad other means by which a child could experience positive forms of social contact - with the help of clubs, societies, sports etc. etc.. With a little thought and action, a very healthy lifestyle could be developed, and a positive and rewarding relationship with one's fellow-humans nurtured. One might say that they don't want to take their child out of school because that's where all the other children are to begin with, but isn't that a classic case of circular reasoning? Thoughts and comments welcome (..and desired actually)! .....Please just be polite in your responses!
I agree completely! Part of the reason why we started homeschooling was because of the type of socialization that our daughter was being exposed to. Now she's well rounded, with friends of all ages, boys and girls, cats and dogs, ducks and rabbits.
LOL - thanks for sharing! Sounds like a healthy approach you've taken, and I'm an animal-lover myself BTW. If anyone's interested, I've just found an article worth reading on this topic. It's actually quite short - don't worry! You can find it here: http://www.nathhan.com/artmyth.htm P.S. Just ignore the religious references if they offend you (..that's what I did anyway) - if you overlook them, it's actually a clear, strong and important rebuke of the 'socialization' argument against homeschooling. Also, if yourself or anyone else has anything else to add or share, feel free (..obviously)!
I would like to simply thank you all for easing my fears! My partner and I have decided to homeschool our daughter (now seven months old) and until now found nothing but discouraging articles. Thank you!
Hm. I haven't read anything on the subject, but I think that the lack of structured socialization would be a big problem to overcome for homeschooled children. That is not to say that it's impossible to overcome it, but it may not be easy. There are some children who can socialize when playing soccer, taking a crafts class or going to the park, but some don't! Some children, and I was one of them, find it difficult enough to socialize even in a school, and much more difficult in brief encounters (sports and clubs are nice, but they don't compare to being stuck with a group of people in a prison-like enviorment for several hours every single day). I've been in clubs, sport teams, music groups.... I am 18 now, and I can say that in my life, I haven't made a single friend in such a setting. In school and university, however, I met many people who I can consider to be friends. The reason that it's hard to simulate this bond is simple: school is not fun for most kids. It's prison. It's a system to fight. I'm sure many of you homeschool guys agree with this. But the thing is, that this harsh enviorment allows children to bond. Take, for example, the Breakfast Club movie. In it, you see a couple of kids in detention, all angry at their enviorment, united through boredom and a common enemy. Yes, they also discovered that they had many similar traits, but that came after the initial breaking of ice. Just something to consider.
being public schooled up until this year i think iw ould know. there is quite a significant lack in socializing....how do i know? because i was out every night of the week partying last year and this year im home alone doing absolutely nothing. THe only friends i have live in other states, and a coupel around the way here. If your adolescent kid suggests hoemschooling....fucking forget it....not worth it. It may seem kickass to sleep til noon everyday and not really have to do anything but it gets quite boring. I regret pulling out of public school this year and everyone i know who has both been to public and home school say theyd pick public over home any day. I understand the need to hoemschool younger children so they are not exposed so early on they are corrupted(unless they have a perv older brother like me....bastard!) but once they hit about 7th grade its time to send them out into the world.
lmfao... since I started homeschooling, I've had little to no real-life socialization in the past year. Mostly just people from here... but oddly, I like it a lot more. I've also developed a bit of schizophrenic and anti-social personality disorders, but hey, not everyone can be perfect...
mushinbumalice: I'm glad to have helped (..if that's what I did). All the best with your plans. -------------------- Syntax: I don't mean to be rude - and thanks for sharing your thoughts - but did you read the article I linked to above? Also, "structured" is quite a vague term - can you elaborate as to what you mean by it in this context? I suspect what you're referring to is the authoritarian framework in schools which quashes and suppresses the natural sociability in children; which imposes age and sex -segregation; and which attempts to organize - by the minute, second and ring of the bell - the manner in which children attempt to socialize and play together. There is little or nothing healthy or positive about this in my view. That seems to be a valid point, but it is outweighed by another one (..and you acknowledge this yourself in your post): some children can't socialize in school either. And - by the sheer volume of people, and the sheer length of time endured - the hurt (..perhaps even damage) caused by this inability to socialize is rendered all the more acute in a school environment. The suffering is prolonged and magnified you could say! Plus - again, by the sheer length of time it consumes - school actually inhibits the possibility for people to 'try out' other forms of 'socializing'. With activities which take up less time - such as sports - there is at least plenty of time to explore other avenues if it doesn't work out. Not the case with school! Well ... although there are still some people I know from university who I am very fond of, most of my friends (..in all honesty) I have met outside of college or school. But I'm 23; maybe you will be in similar circumstances down the line. I met some wonderfully colorful people through the work I did as a hotel porter during my weekends and holidays, for example. I totally agree with your using prison as an analogy for school BTW; but totally disagree with your musings based on this analogy. Rather than keeping children and teenagers in prison - for the sake of an alleged bonding they experience - wouldn't it be far better to take them all out, and allow them to form bonds in a more pleasant, non-stressful environment. Surely more positive relationships can be established than those formed around such a negatively-charged common purpose. Surely children can be united through something other than "boredom and a common enemy"! And what happens once the "common enemy" is removed? Are they no longer united? People can discover they have "similar traits", and can "break the ice" very easily by other means - without sending themselves to prison! The notion that children should be kept in a prison for this reason is deeply disconcerting in my view; and highlights how bizarre a mindframe the current educational system induces. It's funny. My 11-year-old brother (..who - as alot of kids do - has had lots of different friends over the years) at one stage spent nearly all of his time with kids that he had met not through school, but merely because they lived in the neighborhood. They didn't need school to facilitate the socialization - and in fact they were almost all in different classes in school, so I'm not sure it even could have facilitated the 'bonding'. They just got together and played football after school, and during the weekends and holidays. Furthermore, his friend who could possibly be deemed his 'best friend' at this stage, is also in a different class in school. Again, he's a friend not through school; but due to the fact that he lives across the road primarily! Anyway, thanks for your thoughts. Even if I disagree with some of your views, I think it's good to discuss these things. ----------------------- jointman69: First of all: you raise what seems to me to be a very important point, i.e. what the child/teenager actually wants. If I was your parent, and you wanted to go back to school because that's where your friends were, then I think I would more than likely make efforts to help get you back into school. I would urge you to acknowledge, however, that other children/teenagers - who were taken out of school at a far earlier age, or never went there in the first place - have developed friendships and social contacts via other means (i.e. outside school), and don't feel the sudden 'loneliness'/'emptiness'/'boredom' that you have, since being in a non-school environment. I read another thread you started on homeschooling (..here), and also responded to it. If you read my response, you will see that I added the caveat: "I think in a lot of cases it's better to let things finish the course they have begun". You - jointman - would be such a case. If you have spent approximately ten years of your life developing friendships and social contacts through school, and then are all of a sudden deprived of those things, you are bound to feel a little isolated. People who have been living in the 'real world' from the beginning, however, have developed other friendships and social corridors, which they are perfectly happy with. There is an implication in your posts that you are qualified to advise people on all alternatives to standard schooling; that you are somewhat of an 'authority' on the issue, which - with all due respects - I really don't think you are. In some ways, I'm not even sure the 'online school' you referred to qualifies as home-schooling - but more on that in a minute. To be honest, I purposely diluted my opinion of the schooling 'system' you are undergoing. Seeing as you are so lucid in expressing your own thoughts, however, allow me to be equally so myself. How can you expect your social life to be the same when the learning environment you were previously in (..teachers, pupils etc.) has been replaced by a computer screen? I think the internet is an absolutely amazing resource, and one that we should utilize greatly, but there's no point in expecting it to provide with you physical social contact. Did you explore other avenues with your parents? Did you look into whether or not there are home-schooling groups in your area? If you live in a rural area, it's bound to be harder, but look into the idea of getting involved in non-academic activities/projects in your community - get out into the 'real world' maybe! Also, as I said above - if I were your parent, and you were dissatisfied with the situation yourself, I don't think I would stand in the way of you going back to school. In my view, what the child/teenager wants is very important (..as long as their demands are reasonable, of course), and I think that one of parents' primary aims should be to facilitate what they want. If you're lying in bed till noon everyday, and can muster no enthusiasm in the course of your day, it merely illustrates how school has deprived you of the ability to think for yourself, and quashed any spontaneity, creativity and self-motivation you might be nurturing and taking advantage of otherwise. One of the things schools do most effectively is kill or subjugate such traits: it doesn't even give children the time to follow their own interests; or at least, in the short amount of free time they do have, they are recovering/recuperating from the experience of being forced to remember numbifyingly-boring information which bears little relevance to practical existence, and which they have no interest in whatsoever anyway. It's interesting: the two teenagers (..you included) I've talked to who are unhappy with homeschooling are those who have enrolled in these 'online schooling' courses. I suspect - and by all means correct me if I'm wrong - that the others you referred to in your post (..who have "both been to public and home school") are also enrolled with one of these institutions. To begin with, does this even qualify as homeschooling - as the word was interpreted originially? Granted, you are physically seated in your home - but the people you are communicating with (..your teachers/tutors; other pupils perhaps) are in a far-removed location. They could be in another state, or country even! This bears little or no resemblance whatsoever to homeschooling as it was orinally understood. Originally, it meant a sociable environment, where one learnt with the aid of family and/or guardians; where brothers and sisters often learnt together. In the other thread, you wrote "i do all my work online, my mom stays outta it". Well ...as I implied already: if you have chosen to enroll in a course which involves sitting in front of a computer screen all the time, it's absurd to turn around and blame the lack of social contact you are experiencing on homeschooling (...to which the internet is an 'aid'; not the 'essence'). On the other hand, I have also discussed this topic with a person who never went to school (either online or in the physical community), and who - with the exception of some basic reading and maths skills their mother taught them as a child - claim to be almost completely self-taught. All of their friendships and social contacts have been developed outside of school. At only sixteen years of age, they struck me as being considerably more mature and intelligent than alot of grown-ups I know. I was also very impressed with their attitude and the way they presented their arguments - they had a surprisingly good command of the English language for their age! Maybe just a coincidence, but I have doubts. They seemed perfectly content with the circumstances! If you want to go back to school, is there something stopping you? (..genuine question) --------------------- Humans were socializing for a very long time before schools came about. Sociability is an indelible human characteristic; it always has been present to a sufficient degree, and always will be. The idea that school is needed to 'draw out' our sociable behaviour is an absolute absurdity. And all you need to do is walk through a suburb estate, a public park/green, or an inner-city street with terraced-housing, on a summer evening, and you'll see all the evidence you need: children and teenagers playing with all different ages, with little or no authoritarian intervention; there's no need for 'school' to facilitate the phenomenon.
I knew a guy who was homeschooled. He went to public school once, but he got sick a lot and never made any friends. He didn't really learn anything when he was homeschooled,either, so he was behind in class. Anyway, before I started school I only had about 6 or 7 kids in the neighborhood to play with. They were all older than me except one, who was younger. I became friends with some of them, but the older we got, the more our interests changed, and our friendship suffered. Then they all graduated and left, but that was later. First they deemed me weird and immature. My point is, when I started school, there were a lot of kids (about 650, actually) and I was able to meet some people whom I could relate to, even if it took a couple years. Maybe a lot of them were my age, but at least they didn't laugh at me when I mentioned like math, or wanting to be an astronaut or something. Well, they didn't laugh much. That said, we've been friends for years. I've never met anyone like that in baseball or Girl Scouts (curse them) or dance or in the neighborhood.
ludicrous: The argument you present can not be considered a legitimate argument against homeschooling 'per se'. It seems to me that you would all-too-easily adopt the 'circular reasoning' I referred to in my first post. Basically you're implying that it's best to send children to school because that's where all the other children are to begin with - correct? But that sort of reasoning is exactly what leads people to bring their children to school in the first place! What if the children weren't there already? The preferable solution to the problem - in the long-term at least - is not to subdue oneself to this system which has imposed itself on society; but rather to escape it's claws! (...sorry for the melo-dramatic language - I couldn't resist; and I don't think it's inappropriate either to be honest). The fact that schools have come along and - effectively - stolen parent's children - and left the greens, sports fields, homes and playgrounds empty in doing so - has no bearing on the legitimacy or merits of the lifestyle that they (i.e. schools) have effectively almost crushed in doing so! If the few children left at home or in the playground are lonely: blame it on the schools - not the healthy, and sane, lifestyle which preceeded them (..and which will always be the sane and healthier alternative to a system which effectively locks children in classrooms and forces them to 'learn' things they rarely have an interest in; which are of little or no use to them; and which is by no means the best way to 'sharpen their minds')! My suggestion would be that people make a concerted effort to take their children 'out' of schools; and allow them to develop friendships 'outside' of school - helping them if necessary. If grown-ups instead put even a fraction the amount of effort they put into their children's so-called 'education' (..in school-prisons) into their child's social life outside of school, this problem would be either non-existent or near-negligible! Maybe school has inhibited the possibility of you developing your social skills? And with all due respects, could you reasonably expect these things to provide you with the same possibilities for forming friendships? Think about it: teenagers spend (...off the top of my head) 35-50 hours a week in school and on school-related work. How much time a week did/do you spend at baseball, or dance, or girl scouts? One, two or three hours at each? Four to six hours at max? As I said in my previous post: school takes up far too much time for much social contact to be formed outside of it. Finally, as I implied in my response to jointman: if my child/teenager wanted to go to school because they're lonely - I would probably try to help them do so. Respecting a child's autonomy is very important in my view, and if they want to do something, a legitimate reason ought to be put forward before attempting to stop them. As I see it, what they want should always (..at the very least) be heard and/or considered. Karl Bunday - the author of the site Learn in Freedom - touched on an important point when he wrote: "you can use schools and teachers just when they are helpful to you, and voluntarily chosen by you". A parent and child may together decide that - due to the possibility for socialization a school offers (..even though it seems to me not to be a positive - and by no means a comprehensive - form of socialization), or for other reasons (e.g. the child is particularly interested in genetics, and the school has an excellent biology teacher) - that it is a viable option for them. But this should not automatically be interpreted as a concession to any sort of demerit inherent in home-schooling on their part. Often, such a compromise would merely reflect that - as I've written already - school is "where all the children are already". P.S. Where have all the grown-ups gone? Have I inadvertently offended them? ...Maybe that's what I get for being all gung-ho and speaking my mind.
The problem with your circular reasoning argument is simple: There is no way in the world that homeschooling will replace regular school in the next 100 years. So, yes, it may be possible that if all or most kids were homeschooled, there would be no socialization problem. However, we live in the real world and these decisions we are making are not hypothetical but directly effect our children. You may want the other children not to be in schools, but this is not the case, and will not be the case, no matter how hard you try. It is very possible, if not certain, that the schools are to blame for the fact that the "few children left at home or in the playground are lonely". But please explain exactly how you jump from that, to saying that lack of socialization is not a problem for homeschooled children? It's like saying that because we are responsible for polluting the enviorment, and in theory it's possible to stop polluting it if we all just changed our lifestyles, then there is no problem with pollution. Where is the logic? Is this thread about dreaming of a utopian society, or real life problems? You also have one argument about time. "We don't spend as much time playing baseball as being in school." Well. That's true, of course, but what is your suggestion? Send your child into a community centre for hours and hours? During the daytime, all the other children are in school. So, he has time, but who is he going to spend it with? The only time your child has to socialize is when other children are not studying, and so he will have approximatly as much time for activities as regular children, and you have a problem. And again, I want to remind people that I'm not against homeschooling, but am just trying to point out that there is a downside and a problem that needs to be seriously considered and taken care of.
I think it really depends on where you live. In the neighborhood I used to live in, we didn't have any parks or sports fields or that sort of stuff. There also weren't very many kids, just old people (they were nice...). The people I went to dance and baseball with were very mean to me. I do think preschool and kindergarten are pointless, though. All they ever taught me was how to count, how to read, and how to share, things that any parent could teach their kid. I never made any friends in those years except the ones I had outside school.
Syntax: You still haven't demonstrated that there is a problem The onus isn't on me to prove that there being less* opportunities for (..certain types of) socialization available to the home-schooled child isn't a problem; it's on you to prove that it is! Before I accept your claim/implication that there is a problem with socialization for home-schoolers, I am going to have to ask you to do something known as backing up your assertion! Aside from one or two people such as jointman (..who isn't even undergoing the kind of home-schooling I would endorse anyway - if it could even be called home-schooling) complaining that they miss their school-mates (..not surprising - for reasons I explained in a previous post), and that they aren't going to enough house-parties, I have yet to come across any research which indicates that socialization is a problem for home-schooled children; or that the social skills developed by children reared and educated outside of school could be deemed deficient. I will accept the validity of this analogy - or at least consider it - if you can refer to a significant amount of research - or even anecdotal evidence - indicating that children in home-schooled environments exhibit - on average - more problems with regards to social competency than their standard-schooled counterparts. From the short search I have done myself, I have found no evidence to indicate such a trend. Rather I have found research which suggests the opposite. Perhaps read this: Social Skills and Homeschooling: Myths and Facts Here's an even more interesting article: Home Schooling and socialization of children. I'll quote what I think are the most relevant sections: and ..... I don't think there's any need for me to comment on these quotations - their message is quite clear! Although psychology is the field of science I probably have the least confidence in, if an argument which relies on it's (..alleged) findings is put forward (..which is what would have been desirable for your own argument to have done), it's only appropriate that it is responded to using research from the same field. Finally, if people have enough time on their hands, and are in a 'reading mood', here's a very good article: The Myth of Socialization (Homeschool Alert) It refers to the 'Reality Shock' that government-schooled children face when they leave school, and has just the right amount of humour and sarcasm to boot (..it nearly had me in tears with the laughter TBH). (...there's no need to read all of the above articles - they all convey a similar message. If you're interested, just pick one and read it.) --------------------- How much time with people of the same age, and people in general, does a person need, to develop good 'social skills'? If you read and considered my posts a little more carefully - and/or honestly - you would realise that's quite obviously not what I'm suggesting. I touched on a number of alternatives: (i) I mentioned the importance of the social contact that the family itself provides in a lot of cases. (ii) meeting other home-schoolers in the area (..with more than a million home-schooled children in the US - the odds for this happening are quite favorable) (iii) for those of an appropriate age - getting a part-time job perhaps! (iv) volunteer activities - e.g. working with the homeless/elderly people (v) sports and other clubs My suggestions would be similar to those on the page I mentioned above - Social Skills and Homeschooling: Myths and Facts. It's quite obvious that - even during school-hours, while other kids might not be around - there are considerably more alternatives than just spending "hours and hours" at the "community centre". Also, the 'unschooled' individual I mentioned in a previous post said something which was quite interesting in my view: that one doesn't actually 'need' a lot of socializing to develop good 'social skills'. 'A lot' is a relative term of course: in this case, I think they were implying that one didn't need the amount of time one spends with other pupils in school to develop good social skills. ...just something to think about! ---------------------- Homeschooling is growing I'm not in the business of prophecy; nor do I claim to be capable via any other qualification to predict what the world will be like in 100 years time. I will engage in a reasonable amount of conjecture however, and surmise that your outlook is perhaps on the pessimistic side. Let's look at some statistics/estimates - shall we? My time is limited, but I managed to put together a table showing estimates of the number of children being homeschooled in the US - which you can see in the attached picture below: http://www.hipforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=19640&stc=1 Reference 1: http://www.ericdigests.org/1995-1/home.htm Reference 2: http://learninfreedom.org/homeschool_growth.html Reference 3: http://nces.ed.gov/nhes/homeschool/ Perhaps it's not a coincidence that these figures largely correlate with the vast enhancement and availability of communications technology; and (...again, complete conjecture on my part - I'm just thinking out loud) perhaps the Internet will turn out to be an indispensable tool in aiding people to 'return to sanity'? --------------------------- * 'less' being the operative word; 'less' is far from meaning 'none at all'. Furthermore, we are only referring to 'less' of a certain kind of socialization; while home-schoolers may - at present - have 'less' opportunity to meet kids the same age, they have 'more' opportunity to meet people of different ages (...and perhaps of the opposite sex). All in all, I think it's a considerably more balanced environment!
