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Jiddu Krishnamurti On The True Artist...




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#31 BlackBillBlake

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Posted August 30 2016 - 05:53 AM

^^Trouble is, I'm not interested in what others may say about Osho. To me he is of no interest.

 

Millions of people like fundamentalist Islam. Does that mean I should accept it? I think not.

 

Please don't waste your time in trying to convert me to Osho, because it is a waste of your time. A self serving charlatan is all I see.

 

If you don't like western art, don't look at it. That would be my advice. 


Edited by BlackBillBlake, August 30 2016 - 05:54 AM.


#32 Ajay0

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Posted August 30 2016 - 07:08 AM

^^Trouble is, I'm not interested in what others may say about Osho. To me he is of no interest.

 

Millions of people like fundamentalist Islam. Does that mean I should accept it? I think not.

 

Please don't waste your time in trying to convert me to Osho, because it is a waste of your time. A self serving charlatan is all I see.

 

 

It is not important whether you accept Osho or not , and whether you are interested in him or not. Truth obviously has to stand on its own without any external crutches. 

 

The above accolades are put over there to establish his credentials as a philosopher and art critic whose views are worthy of being considered by anyone. There it ends. There is no hard and fast rule that Osho has to be necessarily taken into consideration by every tom,dick and harry. 

 

 

If you don't like western art, don't look at it. That would be my advice. 

 

That would be an emotional reactionary attitude, which is contrary to awareness. 

 

I only have given an input in this regard. There it ends.  :sombrero:


Edited by Ajay0, August 30 2016 - 07:09 AM.

When the robot mind is mastered, undisciplined thinking ceases and is replaced by awareness. Awareness can know love. You can only experience the new when you are aware, when you are without thought. -- Barry Long

 

Evil is an extreme manifestation of human unconsciousness. -- Eckhart Tolle


#33 BlackBillBlake

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Posted August 31 2016 - 03:28 AM

 

That would be an emotional reactionary attitude, which is contrary to awareness. 

 

I only have given an input in this regard. There it ends.  :sombrero:

When you say though that it's all on an inferior level, why would you want to waste your time?



#34 Ajay0

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Posted August 31 2016 - 10:23 PM

When you say though that it's all on an inferior level, why would you want to waste your time?

 

I have never said that 'it's all on an inferior level' . You have misinterpreted whatever I wrote . I have only stated that there was some deficiencies in western art that can be addressed with Krishnamurti's and Osho's views on art. 

 

Art , like everything else in life constantly keeps evolving. If it does not evolve, it gets stagnant and regressive. 

 

Subjective art , as I mentioned before, has its utility, but combined with objective art , the purpose of art will be better fulfilled.

 

Citing a similar example, Swami Vivekananda, an eastern spiritual master and philosopher toured the west in the 1890's teaching meditation and eastern philosophy. While touring europe he stated that europe was a war camp with the stench of war. 

 

If meditation and eastern philosophy, which stresses the unity of all life and existence, was taken seriously by the west and its philosophers in those times, in all probability the two world wars and the genocides that took place could have been avoided, along with the present war on terrorism which has its roots in the holocaust perpetrated in the second world war leading to the creation of Israel.

 

Swami Vivekananda stated in a speech in 1897, "The whole of Western civilisation will crumble to pieces in the next fifty years if there is no spiritual foundation. It is hopeless and perfectly useless to attempt to govern mankind with the sword. You will find that the very centres from which such ideas as government by force sprang up are the very first centres to degrade and degenerate and crumble to pieces. Europe, the centre of the manifestation of material energy, will crumble into dust within fifty years if she is not mindful to change her position, to shift her ground and make spirituality the basis of her life."


When the robot mind is mastered, undisciplined thinking ceases and is replaced by awareness. Awareness can know love. You can only experience the new when you are aware, when you are without thought. -- Barry Long

 

Evil is an extreme manifestation of human unconsciousness. -- Eckhart Tolle


#35 Irminsul

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Posted August 31 2016 - 10:42 PM

Whenever I read or see something that says "a true so and so" I start having a bit of a laugh. Lol. That's a great personal opinion you got there, mate. :D
Red, white, black are our true colours
For these colours we will fight!
Red, white, black will crush the enemy
And will bring back what is right!

#36 Ajay0

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Posted September 01 2016 - 12:18 AM

Whenever I read or see something that says "a true so and so" I start having a bit of a laugh. Lol. That's a great personal opinion you got there, mate. :D

 

Thank you.  :)

 

If I may ask, what does the 'red,white and black colours ' in your signature stands for ! Is it a flag's colours ?


When the robot mind is mastered, undisciplined thinking ceases and is replaced by awareness. Awareness can know love. You can only experience the new when you are aware, when you are without thought. -- Barry Long

 

Evil is an extreme manifestation of human unconsciousness. -- Eckhart Tolle


#37 Irminsul

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Posted September 01 2016 - 12:34 AM

They are the colors of the Imperial flag of Deutschland pre WW1. Kaiser. :)

Edited by Irminsul, September 01 2016 - 12:35 AM.

Red, white, black are our true colours
For these colours we will fight!
Red, white, black will crush the enemy
And will bring back what is right!

#38 Ajay0

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Posted September 01 2016 - 12:46 AM

They are the colors of the Imperial flag of Deutschland pre WW1. Kaiser. :)

 

Wow, that's so cool, dudette.  :rockon:

 

 

I hope I never get the misfortune of becoming the 'enemy'. willy_nilly.gif


When the robot mind is mastered, undisciplined thinking ceases and is replaced by awareness. Awareness can know love. You can only experience the new when you are aware, when you are without thought. -- Barry Long

 

Evil is an extreme manifestation of human unconsciousness. -- Eckhart Tolle


#39 BlackBillBlake

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Posted September 01 2016 - 04:44 AM

I have never said that 'it's all on an inferior level' . You have misinterpreted whatever I wrote . I have only stated that there was some deficiencies in western art that can be addressed with Krishnamurti's and Osho's views on art. 

 

Art , like everything else in life constantly keeps evolving. If it does not evolve, it gets stagnant and regressive. 

 

Subjective art , as I mentioned before, has its utility, but combined with objective art , the purpose of art will be better fulfilled.

 

Citing a similar example, Swami Vivekananda, an eastern spiritual master and philosopher toured the west in the 1890's teaching meditation and eastern philosophy. While touring europe he stated that europe was a war camp with the stench of war. 

 

If meditation and eastern philosophy, which stresses the unity of all life and existence, was taken seriously by the west and its philosophers in those times, in all probability the two world wars and the genocides that took place could have been avoided, along with the present war on terrorism which has its roots in the holocaust perpetrated in the second world war leading to the creation of Israel.

 

Swami Vivekananda stated in a speech in 1897, "The whole of Western civilisation will crumble to pieces in the next fifty years if there is no spiritual foundation. It is hopeless and perfectly useless to attempt to govern mankind with the sword. You will find that the very centres from which such ideas as government by force sprang up are the very first centres to degrade and degenerate and crumble to pieces. Europe, the centre of the manifestation of material energy, will crumble into dust within fifty years if she is not mindful to change her position, to shift her ground and make spirituality the basis of her life."

Your comments could easily be interpreted to mean that you think western art is inferior, as dividing art into objective and subjective, and saying subjective art is based on sexuality, whilst objective comes from a higher or meditative state, does have that kind of ring to it.

 

I disagree that art is evolving, unless we say films etc are art, in which case they are getting better. Not so of painting, sculpture, music, literature though which seem to me to be stuck in a trough from which they seem unlikely to emerge. Art in the old fashioned sense has ceased to occupy the central place in European culture it once did, and I doubt it will ever really make a comeback.

 

I quite like Vivekananda, but I think he was wrong abut Europe crumbling 50 years on from 1897. It nearly did, but emerged after the wars in a better state. Nowadays that's unravelling. Meantime, India is becoming more materialistic and westernized, and has it's own nuclear weapons, and plenty of homegrown problems of its own. Probably the entire world is now a 'war camp' on some level. Hard to find an historical epoch when that wasn't so to some extent.

 

The reasons why Europe lacks spirituality are complex. And it isn't entirely lacking. What I don't think is helpful is for Europeans to seek to convert to eastern religions, and as I recall, Vivekananda had the same idea. One can perhaps learn from many sources and traditions, but for westerners to seek to become Hindus for instance is not something that works very well.

 

Materialism isn't only a European phenomenon. It's swept most of the world over the last century, and today it's getting even more of a grip.



#40 Ajay0

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Posted September 01 2016 - 04:59 AM

Your comments could easily be interpreted to mean that you think western art is inferior, as dividing art into objective and subjective, and saying subjective art is based on sexuality, whilst objective comes from a higher or meditative state, does have that kind of ring to it.

 

This shows that you have not properly covered or understood what has been put over here. 

 

 

 

I quite like Vivekananda, but I think he was wrong abut Europe crumbling 50 years on from 1897. It nearly did, but emerged after the wars in a better state. 

 

The second world war ended in 1945 , with casualties of over a hundred million killed , injured and traumatised. 

 

Europe was indeed considerably weakened and it ceased to be the power it used to be till then. The better state it emerged probably could be that it lost it's warring tendencies of the past and became more pacifist and humanistic, having witnessed enough bloodshed and brutality to take out all the glamour  out of soldiering and war and make it look nauseous instead. 

 

 

 

The reasons why Europe lacks spirituality are complex. And it isn't entirely lacking. What I don't think is helpful is for Europeans to seek to convert to eastern religions, and as I recall, Vivekananda had the same idea. One can perhaps learn from many sources and traditions, but for westerners to seek to become Hindus for instance is not something that works very well.

 

I had not hinted anywhere that the west should embrace Hinduism . Only that western art could embrace Objective art as taught by George Gurdjieff and Osho. 


Edited by Ajay0, September 01 2016 - 05:18 AM.

When the robot mind is mastered, undisciplined thinking ceases and is replaced by awareness. Awareness can know love. You can only experience the new when you are aware, when you are without thought. -- Barry Long

 

Evil is an extreme manifestation of human unconsciousness. -- Eckhart Tolle


#41 BlackBillBlake

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Posted September 05 2016 - 07:35 AM

This shows that you have not properly covered or understood what has been put over here. 

 

Europe was indeed considerably weakened and it ceased to be the power it used to be till then. The better state it emerged probably could be that it lost it's warring tendencies of the past and became more pacifist and humanistic, having witnessed enough bloodshed and brutality to take out all the glamour  out of soldiering and war and make it look nauseous instead. 

 

 

 

I had not hinted anywhere that the west should embrace Hinduism . Only that western art could embrace Objective art as taught by George Gurdjieff and Osho. 

Perhaps you could define it then in other terms because the way you presented this does look a lot like you think objective at is superior.

 

Europe was weakened by 2 world wars, but a big reason for that was the rise of the USA as the world's leading power, taking over that slot from Britain. Other than that the dominance of other cultures under imperialism has ended, it's hard to see how Europe is weaker now than in the 19th century. But if it is, that's the inevitable result of colonialism which has been a big factor in globalzation. Thus, America too is probably going to be replaced by China as the world's leading power any day.

Still, I'd say the average European citizen is much better off now than in 1900.

 

I suppose it's arguable that to follow Osho would be to embrace Hinduism - but it comes close.

 

I don't think art as it has existed in the past really has much of a future anywhere. Most of the old cultural pursuits have been, or are being replaced by digital technology. There's no painting, literature or music nowadays that is really of much significance. To my mind anyway. None of those things hold the same central position in modern culture that they did in past epochs.

 

On the topic of Gurdjieff, he did co-write some quite nice piano music along with Thomas de Hartman. He needed De Hartman who was a trained composer because he lacked the technique. He didn't just acquire the compositional skills required from some kind of conscious state. And the music is nice - but not really that outstanding when compared to a great deal of other piano music.

Although I have read the entirety of Gudjieff's writings, I think a lot of people find 'Beelzebub's Tales' an impossible read. And I am certain that he didn't intend it to be viewed as 'art'. In the case of Gurdjieff, I'd say he was probably a semi-charlatan. But interesting nonetheless.