So What's The Deal With The Confederate Flag Anyway?

Discussion in 'Random Thoughts' started by Irminsul, Jun 25, 2015.

  1. Irminsul

    Irminsul Valkyrie

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    Like what's the problem? I've obviously seen that flag many times and I don't know the history. School would tell me that the confederate army unfurled it in battle, and they wanted slavery, so the flag stands for slavery. But I see 12 stars. And, like I said, without knowing my history, I think they represent the 12 states of the Confederarion at the time?

    Well where's the hate and racism and slavery come into it?

    My granddaddy speaks of this often at the moment as I visit him. He says it's ridiculous, just as ridiculous as his homeland Germany trying to ban the Kaiser Jack. And I tend to agree. Perception. And obviously my perception differs to someone else's. But I just saw an interesting interview on the afternoon news with a black man that states that the Confederate flag never called him a nigga, but politicians do. I find it no different really to the perception of guns. Do guns kill people or do people kill people? Are flags racist, or are people racist? Ridiculous question IMO. Like dat one nigga say, no flag said nuttin' to nobody. :D

    So what's it mean to you personally? What's the problem with it? Am I missing something?

    Germany banning the swastika is a completely different subject. Perception here matter because I don't look at the swastika as anything to do with nazis, it's much more cultural to me but I understand what it means to everyone else. And the swastika was a symbol of the nazi regime. But it seems if the artist took the time to place 12 individual stars to represent the 12 individual states in one uniform flag... where's the racism in all that? Isn't it just that? A representation of 12 states, or am I missing the point entirely? Did those specific 12 states stand for slavery? Like every one of them? And you could only live in those states if you were racist and you could only fly the flag if you were racist? As I type this it seems stupid. I sound stupid. It seems my questions are stupid. About as stupid as that flag representing misinterpreted truths. IMO.
     
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  2. AstralBear

    AstralBear Feed the Bear

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    To me the Confederate battle flag is a symbol of brave soldiers, who fought against a tyrannical union that sought to return our country back to British Imperial rule.
     
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  3. Asmodean

    Asmodean Slo motion rider

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    Perception. It has become a symbol for one thing but it used to represent more. Especially for the people it used to represent (to be sure, they were probably not so uniform on everything the confederates then, and the flag then AND later, stood for. Which only makes it more certain that it doesn't stand for slavery and opression of black people alone). I understand that for people that do not affiliate with it in any way in the first place it is very easy to just put it overly simple.
     
  4. Mattekat

    Mattekat Ice Queen of The North

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    I guess it is how you look at it. The main problem is that it has been adopted by a group of very militants racists. Whatever it used to mean, they have changed it.
     
  5. BlackBillBlake

    BlackBillBlake resigned HipForums Supporter

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    I don't think we can get away from the fact that during the civil war, the Confederates did want to continue with slavery - although abolition was not the cause of the war in itself.

    Also, I think (and I may be wrong) that the flag we have now as the Confederate flag was actually a battle flag, and not the flag of the Confederacy.

    No doubt the Confederate army was quite impressive and the soldiers who fought and died should be remembered, but I do think that if I were a poor black person in America today, I might be less than happy that it should be flown.
     
  6. Lynnbrown

    Lynnbrown Firecracker

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    Asmo put it rather well up there...The civil war was fought NOT to keep slavery alive; but, to stop us (SC and other southern states) from seceeding from the Union. Yes, there were slaves down south, AS WELL AS up north, although that is a fact that is most usually never stated aloud, nor addressed. I've met a number of Yankee racists, for what its worth.

    But back to the question...and what Asmo said...at one time it stood for the south, period - as far as I was concerned. However, it/the Confederate Flag has turned into such a divisive symbol, with White Supremicists and neo Nazis using it as "their" flag. Hence, why I personally and many others down here want it taken down from the state capitol grounds.

    I'm (for once) really proud of the south and how we've pulled together, black, white and mixed, showing that this evil little bastard killing people in a house of worship, hoping for a race riot/war will not prevail...This is a most sad time down south here; but it is also showing me that most are not the racist bigots so many in the US want to believe.
     
  7. Asmodean

    Asmodean Slo motion rider

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    :cheers2:
     
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  8. AstralBear

    AstralBear Feed the Bear

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    The Confederate Constitution banned the overseas slave trade, and permitted Confederate states to abolish slavery within their borders if they wanted to do so. In 1864 the Confederate States began to abandon slavery. The CSA’s highest ranking generals, Robert E. Lee and Joseph E. Johnston were not slave holders and did not believe in slavery.Slavery wasn’t abolished by the Union (North) until 1868, 3 years after the war. Thus Kentucky, Missouri, Maryland and Delaware still had slaves.
     
  9. themnax

    themnax Senior Member

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    like any symbol, there's a lot of 'eye of the beholder'. the question of motivation however, remains at the core.
     
  10. BlackBillBlake

    BlackBillBlake resigned HipForums Supporter

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    The character of leading Confederate generals isn't the issue. Surely the flag must serve as a reminder of the way in which the country was once divided.
     
  11. AstralBear

    AstralBear Feed the Bear

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    Where I am from, the confederate battle flag flies proudly in many yards, and is not a reminder of a once divided country.
     
  12. Asmodean

    Asmodean Slo motion rider

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    It's in a garden in a small town here (in the freaking netherlands) too. I drive by it every week and always notice that flag waving there. No clue of the motive behind it.
     
  13. BlackBillBlake

    BlackBillBlake resigned HipForums Supporter

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    Maybe to you it isn't. To others, it very likely is.
     
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  14. BlackBillBlake

    BlackBillBlake resigned HipForums Supporter

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    A pub in the village where I used to live had what they described as a 'western bar' replete with Confederate flags. But in a rural English village it doesn't have the same connotation. Personally, I always thought it was bit silly. Obviously their motivation was to attract customers into the bar.
     
  15. Asmodean

    Asmodean Slo motion rider

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    Same with certain monuments. Should we tear them down because of that?
     
  16. Asmodean

    Asmodean Slo motion rider

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    Same here in the netherlands as well. It's only taken over and interpreted as utterly racist after some american pointed out that it is so.
     
  17. AstralBear

    AstralBear Feed the Bear

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    I wouldn't deny that there is some that feel that way, but I would encourage them to go beyond what they have been told, and do a history lesson of their own.

    The school that I went to, Lincoln and the North were glorified as saviors of the country, and Davis and the South demonized as evil, rebellious, slaving, devils. This is also the case for many other schools in the United States.
     
  18. BlackBillBlake

    BlackBillBlake resigned HipForums Supporter

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    Depends on the monument in question, and if contemporary extremists might use it to promote their agenda. Symbolism is a powerful thing. For instance, I believe the English banned the wearing of the kilt in Scotland at one time - because of the symbolic value to the Scots. On the other hand, preserving things like the Auschwitz concentration camp may have a positive value.

    I know that a lot of people who like the Confederate flag are not racists - but the fact remains that it can act as a symbol for modern day white supremacists etc.

    Like the US Civil War itself, it's a complex issue.
     
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  19. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    So let's look at the Confederate battle flag.

    The South had three different national flags. The first in 1861 had 7 stars representing the original states that left the Union, it had no cross. The second, 1863, and third 1865, both had the "Southern Cross" and 13 stars.

    The battle flag came into being because the national flag was hard to distinguish on the battlefield due to the profusion of different flags. Confederate General Beauregard decided that he needed one flag to represent his troops. The first design was a a blue St. George’s cross, but it was deemed too religious so the diagonal X was adopted. This flag was never the official flag of the Southern army but in 1861 General Lee did institute it for his Army of Northern Virginia.

    After the war it was adopted by the United Confederate Veterans. As they died out, so did the flag.
    In 1948 a revolt in the Democratic party over civil rights, desegregation, and Harry Truman's proposal to make lyching a Federal crime resulted in South Carolina Gov. Strom Thurmond starting the State’s Rights Democratic Party, AKA the Dixiecrats. During a convention in Birmingham, Alabama the segregationist Dixiecrats rallied behind the battle flag.

    In 1956 the flag was merged with the Georgia state flag as a show of "massive resistance" against school integration as mandated by Brown v. Board of Education.
    In 1961 it was raised above the South Carolina capitol the same day that Thurmond was fighting to maintain Federal Funding of segregationist schools in Congress.
    In 1963 Georgia Governor Wallace raised the battle flag above the state capitol to protest desegregation.

    ​It has also been consistently flown by the KKK.

    As far as the South seceding because of "State's Rights" and not Slavery: that's just B.S.
    What were the rights the Southern States wanted? The right to have slaves!

    ​States' rights is Bull and a smoke screen for segregation...the flag needs to be removed from State and Federal property including auto license plates. Private enterprises such as Wal-Mart are free to sale or not sale it at their discretion. Private citizens are free to display it at their will, if they wish to promote the racist agenda it has come to symbolize.
     
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  20. BlackBillBlake

    BlackBillBlake resigned HipForums Supporter

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    I myself have read quite a lot about the US Civil War. We had a really good thread about it here:

    http://www.hipforums.com/forum/topic/449062-us-civil-war/

    I can see both sides of the thing, and I don't necessarily accept the official version. In some ways, I sympathize with the south, whilst at the same time, I find the concept of slavery abhorrent.
     

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