Who Was Worse, Nazis Or Bolsheviks?

Discussion in 'History' started by Nerdanderthal, Jun 4, 2015.

  1. Asmodean

    Asmodean Slo motion rider

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    What aspect of it is so garbage in your opinion?
     
  2. themnax

    themnax Senior Member

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    if history teaches us anything about ideology, it is that getting fanatical about any of them creates needlessly horrendous conditions.

    examined in closer detail, the manufacture of consent, is the entire function of their existence.
     
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  3. themnax

    themnax Senior Member

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    the bolshiviks, mostly attacked only the aristocracy and a minority of those who defended them. the nazis, attacked ultimately, everyone who refused to tell themselves their lies. so its really pretty much the nazis by a landslide.
    both did horrible things, no doubt about it, and many to people who in no way deserved for them to be done to, but that's really the only comparison they had in common.
     
  4. Irminsul

    Irminsul Valkyrie

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    Nazis are bad, mmkay.
     
  5. JPN2

    JPN2 Supporters HipForums Supporter

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    Communist/Bolsheviks and Nazis were and are equally evil.
     
  6. maddhatter

    maddhatter Senior Member

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    The Nazis were worse because their reasons for genocide and murder weren't just based on political leanings, but based on racial and religious identity. They also killed those who were homosexual, Freemason, or handicapped. The Bolsheviks were horrendous, don't get me wrong, but they mainly killed those who opposed communism rather than who you were as a person.

    Another reason I believe the Nazis were worse is because unlike the Bolsheviks, one of the principle tenet's of Nazism was racial theory and the belief that Aryans were superior to all other races, and the Jews were the most inferior race. Because of this, the Nazis would be inherently evil from the very beginning whereas the Bolsheviks had no such doctrine that would lead in mass murder.

    The Nazis also had many members within the party who were absolutely evil and sadistic, and quite a few of these members achieved high positions within the Nazi party. Here's just a few to give you an idea:

    -Joseph Goebbels was the propaganda minister and was able to incite the German public into hating the Jews.

    -Hermann Goering was the commander of the Luftwaffe which was responsible for destroying many of Europe's most beautiful cities, but he was also a huge collector of art and jewellery and he plundered the artwork of many of the cities that the germans conquered and also stole many of the possessions of the wealthy Jews who were sent to concentration camps.

    -Heinrich Himmler was the leader of the SS and the man whom many consider to be the single most evil Nazi, even surpassing Hitler himself. As leader of the SS, he was oversaw all of the war crimes they committed throughout Europe. He formed the Einstzgruppen which were a paramilitary death squad used to shoot Jews and other political enemies throughout the early stages of the war on the Eastern front. As the toll of killing so many people by gunshot was proving to be inefficient and overwhelming for many of the SS involved, Himmler decided that a new method would be needed for killing so many people. That's when the gas chambers came into effect, which saw the mass murder of millions of people within Europe on an industrial scale never before seen.

    -Reinhard Heydrich was one of the highest ranking SS members and was highly respected within the Nazi party, with Hitler calling him "the man with the Iron Heart" as well as being known as "Himmler's Evil Genius", "the Butcher of Prague", "the Hangman" as well as a few other nicknames that will give you an idea of just what kind of man he was. Heydrich was on of the few men most responsible for the idea of the Holocaust as he chaired the Wannsee conference, where the plans for the Final Solutions were created.

    -Adolf Eichmann was another man who was a major part in the Holocaust. He was responsible for the logistics of the Final Solution which included the mass deportation of Jews and other prisoners from their home country to the concentration/extermination camps as well as the Jewish ghettos. Eichmann was able to escape the allies at the end of the war and avoid being tried at the Nuremberg trials. Fortunately however, in 1961 he was tracked down and captured in Argentina by Israeli's intelligence agency, Mossad, and was sent to Israel for a trial where he was found guilty and hanged.

    Of course there were many others in the Nazi party who were just as sadistic and evil as these men, which goes to show that the Nazis war crimes weren't simply the doings of Adolf Hitler as some would like you to believe, but were perpetrated by many of those within the Nazi party, including both high ranking and low ranking members. As far as the Bolsheviks go, there were a few evil men, but they were greatly outnumbered by people who truly believed in the core ideals of Bolshevism which didn't have the same evil nature as the ideals of Nazism did. Now unfortunately however, the Soviet Union ended up with Joseph Stalin as a leader, and in some regards he was actually worse than Hitler. He killed many more people than Hitler had, although the reasons for these killings, as I already said, were for political reasons, as well as Stalin's own paranoia and megalomaniac personality.

    This is just my opinion however and it could be argued that there in no real way to measure evilness. Even objective statistics like number of deaths isn't always a guaranteed way to measure the evilness of a person or party. If it were, than Mao would have been considered more evil than both Stalin and Hitler, which I think one would agree, just doesn't seem right. The comparison between nations as to who is worse is really a subjective matter rather than an objective one. I mean for instance, the Ustaše, who ruled Croatia during the Second World War as a puppet state of the axis didn't kill nearly as many people as the Nazis did, but some people, including myself would say that they were much more evil than the Nazis. If you look at the way in which they killed their prisoners, it will make your stomach turn. They were so sadistic and cruel that when they Nazis visited one of their camps they saw things that were so horrible that they messaged to Berlin for permission to intervene to stop the brutality that was going on. Now does this make them more evil than the Nazis? I'm not sure, but I suppose they were more cruel in their methods. So again, I think the idea that one state is more evil than another one is a subjective idea and one that can't really be determined or measured.
     
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  7. newo

    newo Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    Easy enough.

    Any alliance whose purpose is not the intention to wage war is senseless and useless.

    How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don't think.

    Humanitarianism is the expression of stupidity and cowardice.

    If you win, you need not have to explain...If you lose, you should not be there to explain!

    Demoralize the enemy from within by surprise, terror, sabotage, assassination. This is the war of the future.

    I do not see why man should not be just as cruel as nature.

    If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.

    It is not truth that matters, but victory.

    Those who want to live, let them fight, and those who do not want to fight in this world of eternal struggle do not deserve to live.

    The very first essential for success is a perpetually constant and regular employment of violence.

    Mankind has grown strong in eternal struggles and it will only perish through eternal peace.
     
  8. BlackBillBlake

    BlackBillBlake resigned HipForums Supporter

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    When we hang the capitalists they will sell us the rope we use. - Joseph Stalin.
     
  9. hotwater

    hotwater Senior Member Lifetime Supporter

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    [SIZE=11pt]Well there’s a large body of evidence that over 60 million Russian Christians were killed by the Bolsheviks, and some in the most gruesome ways such as the rat in the cage torture in which a red hot coals were placed on the top of a cage with an open bottom causing the rats to burrow into the human stomach.[/SIZE]


    [SIZE=11pt]Hotwater [/SIZE]
     
  10. newo

    newo Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    On the other hand there was the Gestapo:

    "Gestapo interrogation methods included: repeated near drownings of a prisoner in a bathtub filled with ice-cold water; electric shocks by attaching wires to hands, feet, ears and genitalia; crushing a man's testicles in a special vice; securing a prisoner's wrists behind his back then hanging him by the arms causing shoulder dislocation; beatings with rubber nightsticks and cow-hide whips; and burning flesh with matches or a soldering iron."
     
  11. Ajay0

    Ajay0 Guest

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    The communist revolution, theoretically, was based on ending the exploitation of the poor by the feudalists and unethical capitalists. An objective of theirs was also to spread the revolution worldwide so as to liberate the poor and exploited from their chains and fetters.

    Thus the principles of fraternity, equality and humanity existed in their system, though they made a disaster in terms of application as power went to the likes of uneducated and incompetent leaders like Stalin, Pol Pot and other tyrants. Mao was a brilliant general but a poor leader of people.

    It is the poor quality of leadership that made a mess of affairs in communism.

    If Lenin had a longer duration as President, and if the intelligent and well-educated Leon Trotsky had replaced Lenin as president of the U.S.S.R, much of the excesses committed by Stalin would not have happened. Lenin and Trotsky could also have counselled Mao on better and sane policies and practices, and he would probably then would not have embarked on the cultural revolution that killed millions.
    So with Pol Pot and the east european leaders. Unfortunately the damage done by Stalin was enormous, and he presented an example to other leaders which perpetuated the problem.

    Communism has developed great leaders like Lenin, Leon Trotsky, Che Guvera, Ho Chi Minh and helped to give the working classes a voice all over the world. It has greatly strengthened through its ideals humanism, fraternity among the various diverse peoples of the world, focus on science and technology,eradicated mindless religious superstitions by advocating the rational temperament, and the working conditions of the workers around the world.

    Many capitalist nations consciously worked on improving the plight of its workers, so as to combat the threat of communism and socialism taking over them. Feudalists would think twice over exploiting the peasants or poor who lived on their lands so as not to incur the wrath of communist revolutionaries. So, you can see a lot of good came over through communism and this is why it still exists as a political system in some countries and regions in the world, and not an extinct entity yet.


    Nazism, however even in its short duration, has murdered more than communism. The Nazis killed the jews, gypsies, handicapped, communists and homosexuals in Germany by the millions. In the second world war, they killed over 20 million people in the U.S.S.R. The communists with all their genocides still would not be able to match the genocides committed by the nazis in the short period they were in power.

    And ultimately, it is the communists who put an end to the Nazi menace, probably more than the other allies put together.
     
  12. BlackBillBlake

    BlackBillBlake resigned HipForums Supporter

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    Slightly ironic that it was the "communists" under Stalin who defeated the Nazis.
     
  13. Irminsul

    Irminsul Valkyrie

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    Sshh don't let the Yanks hear that, they won the war, okay. ;)
     
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  14. Ajay0

    Ajay0 Guest

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    If it wasn't for the russian winter, the nazis would have wiped out the U.S.S.R. The russian winter, which defeated Napoleon as well, gave the russians time to regroup, marshall their enormous resources and counterattack successfully.

    Stalin's incompetent leadership resulted in the great devastation that the Germans created in soviet union till they were stopped and considerably weakened by the winter.

    If Leon Trotsky was in charge , he would have ensured that the Germans never dreamt of attacking the Soviet Union by putting it in a position of strength and military preparedness. He was not only an outstanding administrator but also an experienced military veteran, having possessed good knowledge of military theory and practice through his command in the prior civil war.

    German espionage was successful in that they put a mark of suspicion on most of the best Soviet generals, which prompted Stalin to sent them to the concentration camps or assassinate them. This lead to considerable weakening of the Soviet military, which the Germans later exploited.

    The inability of Lenin to produce a good pipeline of leaders, accountability in the system was the errors in the communist side. Teething problems of the newborn U.S.S.R trying to put a new economic philosophy into application without any prior precedent to learn from, pressure from virtually every nation on earth trying to put down the experiment to ensure that feudalism, aristocracy and capitalism are safe and sound , was the external factors that lead to the demise of the Soviet Union.
     
  15. BlackBillBlake

    BlackBillBlake resigned HipForums Supporter

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    I think you have to factor Hitler's complete incompetence as a military commander into the equation. The German army did well in the war until Hitler began to assume command and contradict his generals. Also, the invasion of Russia was delayed by up to a month, which meant that the window of opportunity for the Wermacht before the onset of winter was shorter than planned.

    Lenin didn't want Stalin as successor, but Stalin had become too powerful by the time of Lenin's death. It's interesting perhaps to speculate on how things might have been different under Trotsky. Since he and Stalin had differing views - Trotsky more the international revolutionary and Stalin favouring 'socialism in one country' it would probably have been quite different. Another 'what if' scenario.
     
  16. BlackBillBlake

    BlackBillBlake resigned HipForums Supporter

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    They prevented the Russians from over running all of western Europe, which was probably a large part of the plan. Probably that saved many in western Germany from the depredations of the Red Army which were pretty horrendous as they advanced.

    Brits like to recall Montgomery's victory over Rommel and the Battle of Britain. Interesting that in his diary, Churchill wrote that the day Russia entered the war was one of the happiest of hie life.
     
  17. morrow

    morrow Visitor

    So if it's about the worst, are you saying one was better????!!!
     
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  18. LittleBee

    LittleBee Members

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    Communism ideology was good enough but not easy to achieve. perhaps the ways Bolsheviks tried to achieve their goals were not quite right.


    Nazis are bad unquestionably.


    In fact they're both bad in their own degree.
    Nothing can be good when it comes to fanaticism.
     
  19. NoxiousGas

    NoxiousGas Old Fart

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    no it wasn't, it was good ole' mother nature kicked their ass.
    if the Nazis moved on Russia at a different time of the year, it would have been a different ending.
     
  20. Wu Li Heron

    Wu Li Heron Members

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    Racists like Hitler only pretend to be scientific rationalists just like many of the religious, while atheist commies are the real deal making them much more formidable mass murders. Notably, Mao Zedong was a commie who made Stalin look like a petty dictator without a brain in his head and killed more people than both Stalin and Hitler combined.
     

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