Atheists Left Speechless On A Question On Evolution

Discussion in 'Agnosticism and Atheism' started by Dude111, Nov 12, 2014.

  1. themnax

    themnax Senior Member

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    when an athiest remains speachless, it is often to avoid throwing pearls before swine.
     
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  2. heeh2

    heeh2 Senior Member

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    And when swine eat those pearls, you get pearls covered in shit.
     
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  3. themnax

    themnax Senior Member

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    as little anna roseanna danna used to say "and that's tha truth pthththththt".

    (though i have no idea if that's the truth you meant.)
     
  4. Asmodean

    Asmodean Slo motion rider

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    You're hilarious, dude111 :D
     
  5. NoxiousGas

    NoxiousGas Old Fart

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    your right lack of understanding has a lot to do with it.
    while on the subject of understanding things Ace, could you please quote me the passages in the Bible that state the Earth is only 6000 years old.

    there are a lot of ignorant assumptions on both sides of the fence
     
  6. AceK

    AceK Scientia Potentia Est

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    as far as i know(and pretty sure anyone else), the age of the earth is nowhere mentioned in the Bible. the ~6000 year figure i believe comes from the geneologies of adam and his descendants, when referenced against other historical evidence can be used to derive a figure that creationists believe to be a close approximation to the date of creation.
     
  7. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

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    Unless it be that we may communicate at the same level.
     
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  8. NoxiousGas

    NoxiousGas Old Fart

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    Exactly.
    So a distinction needs to be made between what the adherents of said religion believe and what the source material actually says.
    The age derived by genealogies is a guess at best and assumes that the "day" mentioned in the creation account was 24 hours when the original language pretty much simply denotes a period of time that could've been hours or billions of years.
    But frankly within the context of the Bible and what it purports to be, the age of the Earth is irrelevant, as are many things detractors focus on.
     
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  9. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

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    There is a meaning to this that doesn't judge others. Resist the temptation to express negatively. Our devotion is our most precious possession.
     
  10. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

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    You yourself trample them underfoot in the context of post 29. Those, pearls, being your high ideals.
     
  11. heeh2

    heeh2 Senior Member

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    Begone, swine. You've had your pearls.
     
  12. IMjustfishin

    IMjustfishin Member

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    it clearly says in genesis:

    there was evening and there was morning, thats a 24 hour day. its so clear, i think you would be hard pressed to explain it any other way. in all the bible versions in my house (new international and the king james version) they all say the same thing.

    i dont know about the "origional language", maybe you can post a translation or something, but here is a verse from genesis (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1)

    in the english version, its almost as if they specifically wanted to make a point that it was a 24 hour period. obviously the astronomy behind genesis is all wrong but lets ignore that for now, i would like to hear your explanation.
     
  13. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

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    when I do my girl real love donkeys I get the ET's for my Wheaties
     
  14. NoxiousGas

    NoxiousGas Old Fart

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    LOL.....

    First of all, Biblical Hebrew contained very few words relative to modern languages. Strong's exhaustive concordance lists 8674 words in the Hebrew dictionary. The actual number of root words is usually taken to be 2552. By way of contrast, the Merriam Webster Collegiate Dictionary lists over 165,000 words and the Oxford English Dictionary (2nd edition) lists over 615,000 words (over 1,000,000 including scientific words). Therefore, the Biblical Hebrew vocabulary was much smaller than most modern languages such as English. It follows that most Hebrew words had several meanings. Also, it was not possible in Biblical Hebrew to express many of the nuances we find in English.
    The small size of the Hebrew vocabulary also means that the English words used to translate the Hebrew often have additional connotations that were not present in the original. For example, when we think of the words “earth” and “heavens” we think of a roughly spherical planet orbiting the sun in a vast universe containing many other planets and suns. However, to the original hearers, the Hebrew word for “earth” would likely have referred to the ground surrounding them, and the word for “heavens” would likely have meant the sky they saw above.
    When we desire accuracy in communication, we usually rely on the written word rather than the spoken word. This was not true in ancient cultures. The primary way that the scriptures were transmitted was orally. The written Old Testament scriptures were usually read aloud to the Israelites. The words in most languages are made up of consonants and vowels. In speech, consonants involve motion of the lips or tongue whereas vowels involve air flow deeper in the throat. Almost all words in Biblical Hebrew consisted entirely of consonants. The root words usually consisted of three consonants. Vowel marks were not introduced into the Hebrew language until about 150 A.D. Therefore, most words in written Hebrew corresponded to several spoken words. For example, the Hebrew word baqar consisted of three consonants and could have the following meanings depending on how it was pronounced.
    • baw-kar is translated as “seek” or “inquire”
    • baw-kawr' is translated as “ox”
    • bo'-ker is translated as “morning”
    In Biblical Hebrew, the meaning of a word almost always depends on the context.
    In addition, verbs in Biblical Hebrew did not have tenses related to time. Thus, we cannot tell from the verb itself whether the action takes place in the past, in the present, or in the future. Hebrew verbs only indicated a completed action (perfect form) or an incomplete action (imperfect form). In Biblical Hebrew the basic verbs do not specify the duration or time ordering of the actions. In some cases additions to the root verbs may indicate time ordering. It was mentioned in connection with the Gap Theory that the word translated as “was” in the phrase “the earth was without form” could also have been translated as “became”.
    Most of the controversy concerning Genesis 1 centers on the meaning of the Hebrew word “yom” (pronounced yome) for day. In Biblical Hebrew it can mean a 24-hour day, the daylight hours, or a finite period of time. Its most common meaning is “daylight”. It is only rarely used to represent a 24-hour day. Unlike English, the original Biblical Hebrew had no other word to express a finite period of time of unspecified duration. Some writers have suggested that the Hebrew word “olam” could have been used for that purpose. However, this word only came to mean an age or era in postbiblical writings. In Biblical times “olam” meant forever, always, eternity, etc., i.e. periods of time without a beginning or end. The following are some examples in which “yom” refers to a finite period of time.
    The seventh “yom” in Genesis 1 is often taken to be a long period of time (possibly extending to the present) since the phrase “and there was evening and there was morning” is omitted.

    Hosea 6:2 After two yom days he [God] will restore us [Israel]; on the third day he will restore us.
    Isaiah 34:8 For it is the yom day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion.
    Psalm 90:4 (attributed to Moses) For a thousand years in thy sight are but yom yesterday when it is past and as a watch in the night.
    Genesis 2:17 But of the trees of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shall not eat of it: for in the yom day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. ( Genesis 5:5 states that Adam lived 930 years)
    Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the yom day that the Lord made the earth and the heavens.
    Numbers 3:1 These are the generations of Aaron and Moses in the yom day that the Lord spoke with Moses in mount Sinai. ( From Exodus 34:28 we have “So he was with the Lord forty days and forty nights”)

    It is possible that the seven days in Genesis 1 are, at least in part, a literary device. Ancient Near Eastern literature, particularly from Mesopotamia and Canaan, provides numerous examples of the use of seven days as a literary framework to circumscribe the completion of a significant or catastrophic event. The pattern in these works runs uniformly as follows: “One day, a second day, so and so happens; a third day, a fourth day, such and such occurs; a fifth day, a sixth day, so and so takes place; then, on the seventh day, the story comes to its exciting conclusion.” Genesis 1:1–2:3 modifies this pattern from three sets of two days followed by a concluding day to two sets of three days followed by a concluding day. On days 1–3 God gives form to the universe. The characteristic verbs used in these three days are separate and gather. On days 4–6 God fills his creation. The characteristic verbs here are teem, fill, be fruitful, increase.
    Hebrews 4:4–11 For somewhere [God] has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “And on the seventh day God rested from all his work.” …
    It still remains that some will enter that rest. … There remains, then, a sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest.
    In some translations we find the phrases “the first day”, “the second day”, “the third day”, “the fourth day”, “the fifth day”, and “the sixth day” associated with the days of creation. Actually, the definite article ‘the’ is not present in the Hebrew for the first five days. In Hebrew the article ‘the’ is expressed by prefixing a word with the letter ‘heh’. Elsewhere in the Old Testament where expressions such as “the first day”, “the second day”, etc. are used, both the number and the word ‘day’ are prefixed with ‘heh’. In Genesis one, only the sixth day has the prefix ‘heh’ and it only on the number. Thus, the use of numbers with the word ‘day’ in Genesis chapter one has a very unusual construction. A more literal rendering of the Hebrew is “one day”, “a second day”, “a third day”, “a fourth day”, “a fifth day”, and “the sixth day.” The omission of the definite article “the” in all but the sixth day allows for the possibility of a literary ordering of the days as well as a strictly chronological order. It would also seem to allow for the possibility of gaps between the days. The use of the article on the sixth day seems to provide a special emphasis.
    Each of the six days ends with the phrase “and there was evening and there was morning …” Authors Mark Van Bebber and Paul Taylor wrote, “This phrase [evening and morning] is used 38 times in the Old Testament, not counting Genesis 1. Each time, without exception, the phrase refers to a normal 24-hour day.” However, the old-earth adherents point out that
    • The word “day” appears in none of these references.
    • In only a few of these do the words “evening” and “morning” even occur in the same sentence.
    • The phrase “evening and morning” occurs only once. In Psalm 55:17 David said, “Evening, and morning, and at noon will I pray.”
    • 24-hour days were usually marked by “evening to evening” and occasionally “morning to morning.”. Strictly speaking, evening followed by morning delimits the nighttime.
    • The exact phrase “and there was evening and there was morning” occurs only in Genesis 1.
    The verses
    are an example of where “evening” and “morning” are used figuratively to delimit a period of time.You sweep men away in the sleep of death; they are like the new grass of the morning — though in the morning it springs up new, by evening it is dry and withered. Psalms 90:5–6
    Van Bebber and Taylor also said that 358 out of the 359 times “yom” is used with an ordinal number modifier, it represents a 24-hour day. However,
    • There is no rule in Hebrew grammar that requires this interpretation.
    • All of the 358 cases mentioned refer to human activity where the 24-hour meaning would be natural. Genesis 1 and Hosea 6:2 refer to God's activity.
    It is often argued that the required Sabbath observance indicates that the days were ordinary 24-hour days.
    Hebrew scholar Gleason Archer noted, “By no means does this [Exodus 20:9–11] demonstrate that 24-hour intervals were involved in the first six ‘days,’ any more than the eight-day celebration of the Feast of Tabernacles proves that the wilderness wanderings under Moses occupied only eight days.” In addition, Leviticus 25 speaks of a Sabbath year. Thus, it could be argued that the Sabbath is not tied to a particular time duration, but to the pattern of one in seven.Exodus 20:9,11 Six days you shall labor …, but the seventh day is a Sabbath. … For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth …, but he rested on the seventh day.
    Let us now look at a few other Hebrew words that occur in the creation narrative. Notice that the meaning of these words is not as tightly constrained as we find in English.
    • reshiyth (re-sheet´): the first (in place, time, order, or rank), beginning. In Genesis 1 it occurs in the form bereshith. The prefix be can mean in, at, or on. Bereshith is the title of the book in Hebrew. In English we often think of the beginning as a point in time, but the Hebrew word often refers to an initial period of time.
    • Elohiym (el-o-heem´): The plural form of Eloahh (el-o´-ah). It is a combination of the words el (the strong one) and alah (to bind oneself by oath). Thus Elohiym is the mighty and faithful one. It is the only name for God used in Genesis one. In Genesis chapter two Elohiym is combined with Yahweh and is translated as “the Lord God”. This provides a connection between God as the creator and the covenant God of Israel.
    • ruwach (roo´-akh): The word for wind, spirit, or breath. When it occurs together with Elohiym it refers to the Holy Spirit.
    • shamayim (shaw-mah´-yim): The sky, the heavens, or the spiritual realm. These three realms are sometimes referred to as the first heaven, the second heaven, and the third heaven.
    • erets (eh´-rets): Can mean earth, field, ground, land, or region.
    • towb (tobe): Can mean good, beautiful, or best.
    • adam (aw-dawm´): The word for human, man or mankind.
    In the Hebrew there are three primary creation verbs used in the first chapter of Genesis. They are “bara”, “asah”, and “hayah”. Their meaning and usage in Genesis 1 are given below.
    bara (baw-raw´): to create; to bring forth something that is radically new. It doesn't necessarily mean that something is made out of nothing as can be seen in the description of man's creation (Gen 2:7) where man is formed from the dust of the ground.
    asah (aw-saw´): make; produce; fabricate. This verb doesn't necessarily imply that something is being made out of something else, you have to look at the context. In fact it doesn't necessarily mean that anything is made. It can have the meaning of appointing or designating something to perform a certain task. This could be the meaning on the fourth day.

    So God created man in his own image Gen 1:27
    So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. Gen 1:21
    God created the heavens and the earth Gen 1:1 hayah
    (haw-yaw): cause to appear or arise; come into existence.God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. Gen 1:31
    Then God said, “Let us make man in our image Gen 1:26
    God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. Gen 1:25
    God made two great lights — the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. Gen 1:16

    Let us now look at the literary form of Genesis 1. Most scholars agree that this chapter has the form of a narrative. First, it does not have the parallelism (repeated lines with the same meaning) that is characteristic of Hebrew poetry. Second, the events of the various days are connected using verbs having a form (the wayyiqtol form) that is characteristic of a narrative. The wayyiqtol form consists of an imperfect verb prefixed by the Hebrew letter waw (vav). “waw” is often translated as “and”. Genesis 1, however, is not a typical narrative. It does not involve any human speakers or observers, only God. The narrative is told in a very patterned way involving several repeated phrases:

    Be fruitful and increase in number; Gen 1:28
    and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth. Gen 1:15
    Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, Gen1:14
    Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear. Gen 1:9
    Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water. Gen 1:6
    Let there be light Gen 1:3
    • And God said
    • And God saw it was good
    • And there was evening and there was morning
    The plants and animals are referred to using very broad categories. Plants are grouped into small plants and trees. Animals are grouped into livestock (domestic animals), wild beasts, and creeping things (mice, lizards, spiders). No species except man is given its proper Hebrew name. In addition, the sun and moon are referred to as “the greater light” and “the lesser light”; names not used anywhere else in the Old Testament. Although there is a Hebrew word for sky, this passage uses the poetic term expanse. In summary, the language used to describe God's creation was not technical in nature, even by Hebrew standards.
    Verses 1 and 2 of Genesis 1 contain no wayyiqtol verbs. The verbs in verses 1 and 2 (God “created” and earth “was”) are in the perfect tense. Therefore, it is believed that these verses are outside the main narrative. Verses such as these, preceding the narrative, usually describe background information or events occurring prior to the narrative. Occasionally, preliminary verses such as these, are used to summarize the following narrative. The first word of verse one, bereshith (in beginning), is the Hebrew title for this book. The Hebrew word reshith for beginning is broader than its English equivalent. It usually refers to an initial period of time rather than a specific point in time. It was used, for example, to denote the initial period of a young king's reign between the time he was declared to be the king and when he actually ruled on his own. The phrase “the heavens and the earth” in verse one is an idiom whose meaning is very close to the English words “universe” or “cosmos”. The second verse of Genesis 1 describes the state of the earth as the narrative begins (formless and empty). The narrative begins in verse 3.
     
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  15. Asmodean

    Asmodean Slo motion rider

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    Holy crap, that is a thorough post!
     
  16. Dude111

    Dude111 An Awesome Dude HipForums Supporter

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    Ind33d it iz!
     
  17. AceK

    AceK Scientia Potentia Est

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    what about idioms of the day? words and phrases that when translated literally might yield completely different subjective meaning in a modern language?
     
  18. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Most of us are aware of the problems with modern day translations let alone the translation of a document that is over a thousand years old.
    So what are you saying Nox?

    Are you implying that the Bible is open to various interpretations by various and sundry individuals and organizations, especially the Old Testament?
    Are you implying that the original meaning of various passages cannot be properly understood at this time?
    Are you saying that mistranslations and errors have occurred since the original books of the Bible were conceived (or even intentional ones)?
    Or are you saying that there is someone somewhere who can or has written an accurate translation with the correct meanings, and if so how would we know?

    Just wondering.
     
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  19. relaxxx

    relaxxx Senior Member

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    Oh no!
    Translations of fairy tales may be askew!?
    This is a FUCKING DISASTER!

    Someone inform the orthodox Jews that they observe the Sabbath incorrectly. Maybe Nox can teach to the Jews more about Hebrew. As they foolishly seem to think that it's a ~24 hour period from Friday night to Saturday night. Wow and oh Holy fuck!
     
  20. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

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    the idioms of our day are our own and we recgnize their meaning therefor the materail needs to be translated from that perspectve. The words themselves constructed in ancient idiom then become to us as symbols which have no common .meaning to .us so .must have a relational meaning to our experience. so anthropormorphic interpretation of even the word god at this point is riddiculus. God the creator becomes our gnosis of physical in the most up to date terms. Inthe case of god creating the world we experience by invoking things into existence mirrors our ownanvil on creation incalling upon ourselves by the strength of our convictions all that befalls us as experience in being human. It is a profound view of mans essentially creative presence on this planet.
     
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