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Is Western Culture Superior?




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#1 Jimbee68

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Posted October 03 2014 - 08:26 PM

I was just wondering. Is western culture superior to others (by "western", I am including the USA, Canada, and Europe)?

 

Islamic culture particularly comes to mind. Did you know in Saudi Arabia (one of our [allegedly] closest allies), they'll chop of your hand for stealing a loaf of bread?

 

I am somewhat hesitant to say it, because I fear the ire of my fellow liberals. But I want to start the discussion, by saying emphatically "YES".

 

What do the rest of you think?

 

:toilet:

 

 


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#2 Vanilla Gorilla

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Posted October 03 2014 - 09:19 PM

Im not all that interested in Europe, and whats Canadian culture? Snow and trees ;)

Americans make great movies, but I wouldnt want to live there, its almost impossible to get a decent cup of coffee, and I dont want to get shot at.

Im most interested in Japanese culture, when I retire being an expat in tokyo might warrant serious consideration
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#3 Annwyn'Bri

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Posted October 03 2014 - 09:21 PM

Your question is pretty subjective... you need to narrow it down to something more specific. 

 

As far as superior... again that's an opinion and viewpoint... what is meant by superior? 

 

I would agree in some areas the west, as you define it, is more advanced in some areas. But superior as in better? No, not really....

 

I am a liberal by the way, but that doesn't mean I think Americans are better just because we are American.


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#4 Meliai

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Posted October 04 2014 - 06:02 AM

American culture sucks.

 

it doesn't seem like you're even considering Asian culture which is pretty fascinating. I also find middle eastern culture beautiful once you look past the warfare and extremism. There are thousands of years of history there. Damascus in Syria is the oldest city in the world - I would love to travel there if its ever safe again.

I love history so I'm pretty fascinated by European, middle eastern, and Asian culture. America, Canada, and Australia mostly bore me.

 

 

 

 

i


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#5 Eztimers

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Posted October 04 2014 - 06:54 AM

As an American, I find we are drunk on our own propagandized information. Freedom and Justice for all, now we wrote that as a slaver nation.

Freedom and Liberty and Justice for all, H'mmm lets see, once the founding fathers set up the nation, within a few years they declared war on the resources from the Applachia Mountains, lumber, coal, minerals, all taken by hook or crook, from folks that did not want thier land, above and below, ripped away from them. 

So more and more LAWs are created for the wealthy to get what they want, and to leave Black Lung, sever poverty and wasted mountain sides, for others to deal with.

 

Then there is the horror we committed on the indiginous peoples of the Americas that to this day makes me hang my head in shame, as a mighty whitey.

I just recently found out by DNA, my blood has a percentage of indiginous blood in it.

 

We as a people have got to be more open to understanding other cultures instead of FAKE friendships to get goods and services from from them we can control.

 

Learn to read words that piss you off, it's the only way to get both sides of an issue, by trying to understand another point of view.


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#6 sheela na gig

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Posted October 04 2014 - 02:01 PM

Well, Western does start with WE ..



#7 I'minmyunderwear

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Posted October 04 2014 - 03:40 PM

whats Canadian culture?

 

US culture plus hockey.


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#8 Moonglow181

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Posted October 04 2014 - 04:34 PM

I was just wondering. Is western culture superior to others (by "western", I am including the USA, Canada, and Europe)?

 

Islamic culture particularly comes to mind. Did you know in Saudi Arabia (one of our [allegedly] closest allies), they'll chop of your hand for stealing a loaf of bread?

 

I am somewhat hesitant to say it, because I fear the ire of my fellow liberals. But I want to start the discussion, by saying emphatically "YES".

 

What do the rest of you think?

 

:toilet:

Not in all things...The Asians sure have us beat for natural cures, acupuncture, energy flows etc.....


Edited by Moonglow181, October 04 2014 - 04:38 PM.


#9 Annwyn'Bri

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Posted October 04 2014 - 09:16 PM

US culture plus hockey.

 

Plus Poutine, maple sugar candy, beer and beavers...


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#10 Logan 5

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Posted November 11 2014 - 02:58 AM

Well, I suppose it depends on how you look at it.  You say "western nations" and that leaves a mighty big selection of options to choose from.  Politically we're very diverse.  Financially, the same.  Even the cultures are diverse.

 

In general I would have to say that yes we are superior.  Look at the region you selected.  How often have there been civil wars?  Pestilence?  Famine?  Yes, yes.  I know.  We have poverty in all of those countries in that region you selected.  However, compare the current situation the Middle East is in to the Western Nations.  Include Africa and Asia.  Western nations versus Africa, Asia, Middle East, and even Oceania.  Why not throw in South America as well?

We're by no means perfect, but I'd say we're in the top 5% of the best place to live on Earth.


“Becoming a dissident is not something that happens overnight.  You do not simply decide to become one.  It is a long chain of steps and acts.  And very often during this process, you do not really reflect upon what is happening...You don’t want to become involved with the dirt that is around you and one day, all of a sudden you wake up and realize that you are a dissident, that you are a human rights activist.” – Vaclav Havel, former Czech President (1993-2003) & activist

 

We are told to remember the idea, not the man, because a man can fail.  He can be caught.  He can be killed and forgotten.

But four hundred years later an idea can still change the world.

 

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#11 Asmo

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Posted October 16 2015 - 07:24 AM

I would make a distinction between the questions what is the best place to live and which culture is superior.

 

But at first instance I would say no. The only way I can perceive a culture as superior than other cultures is by going by preferences/subjectivity. But even then I don't see the use of hanging a superiority label on it... :P If I go by preferences and what I am intrigued by and interested in I have to say that contrary to most people these days Japanese culture is on the low end on my list. Does this mean they are the most inferior? I really don't see how.


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#12 Mountain Valley Wolf

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Posted October 16 2015 - 08:51 AM

In my own experience/research/critique I have concluded that Western Culture has become the global culture---and that today it is largely exported American Culture (as opposed to early on when it was clearly European culture that defined exported Western cultural values).

 

 

 

This does not mean that Japan is becoming American, for example, rather it means that Japan is becoming its interpretation of American values, or more correctly----assimilating its version of American values within its own industrialized cultural context.

 

 

 

But this does not mean that American or Western culture is superior. For one thing, when you use the term culture, you are using a very broad concept. What is superior? Music? Art? Our zeitgeist and World view? Western social structure? The Western cultural programming that is used to keep the masses in check?

 

 

 

Since the OP was written in a general catch-all tone, let me speak in general terms----we are exporting our faults as much as we are exporting positive values within our culture. And Western culture is today a culture of nihilism. We no longer have truth, authenticity, meaning and a sense of universal value. We have no true unifying truth (or as Post-Modern theorists say, unifying myth---I prefer 'truth' because a unifying truth/myth is the truth of the culture it gives strength and unification to). A culture cannot survive too long without a unifying truth. We do, however, have a fabricated shallow, and inauthentic unifying truth----consumerism. But the values, and satisfaction consumerism provides is shallow, and temporary.  

 

 

 

In addition, as American culture is exported as Modern Global culture, American culture is assimilating diverse global cultural values. For example, well into the 1960's and even the 70's, the church was still a largely unifying cultural value. It was as recent as the 1950's that we placed, 'In God We Trust,' on our currency----and this was for a unifying purpose---a defining act to separate us from the perceived evils of communism. Eastern philosophy and other spiritual traditions had never appeared so strongly in Western culture as it started to with the youth in the 1960's. But the Hari Krishnas, ashrams, Buddhists, Taoists, and even the cults were still largely a cultural aberration----in many ways, not much more than a passing pop cultural trend (as Eastern philosophy has often been even in past centuries). But today, it isn't very hard to find someone who considers him/herself as a Buddhist. And today the church is nothing more than just another of many such elements that competes to try to define existence for us.

 

 

But the modern nihilism is also a breakdown of traditional values that have guided civilization since its early planter cultural roots. We are seeing a breakdown in dualism, group ethic, and male dominance (the latter being from our later planter cultural roots). Truth and meaning is relative today, just as it is growing in divergence, but both of these dynamics---relativism and divergence---represent a breakdown.

 

 

 

I will continue with this later...


Edited by Mountain Valley Wolf, October 16 2015 - 11:57 AM.

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#13 Mountain Valley Wolf

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Posted October 16 2015 - 01:53 PM

(To continue with my last post:  )

 

There are many elements to our culture that are clearly decadent in nature (i.e. representative of decay). There is no authentic meaning that is embraced culture-wide to guide us, unify us, and provide meaning to our culture itself. Collectively, we are struggling to find meaning in an overly rationalistic and objectivist world. In the past, cultures that have found themselves in exactly this same predicament did not survive. In other words, we are rapidly approaching the doom of Western/global culture. More seriously, because of, 1.) the serious negative impact of industrialization on this planet (thank you Western values of human dominance over nature), and 2.) the tremendous dependance of our overly inflated human population upon industrialization and modern technology (as the indigenous alien told the human in the movie Avatar, "You are like a baby!) we are rapidly approaching the crossroads leading the to the destruction of the human race. 

 

Can we call a culture that is essentially meaningless superior? Can we call a culture that is on the verge of its own demise superior? Can we call a culture that is on the verge of destroying our whole species superior?

 

Now that I have shared the gloom and doom of our current situation, let me provide hope. We are definitely experiencing what the Ancient Greeks referred to as a, "metamorphosis of the gods." In other words, there is a feeling in the air that the times are ripe for change. "There is a change a-coming" is a very significant pop-cultural motif and meme. This is, after all, that struggle to find meaning I referred to earlier. The Age of Nihilism is in fact a symptom of the globalization of culture; it is a purge of the outdated and divisive understandings we have carried from an ancient past; it is also a means of coming to terms with our growing understanding of the cosmos----there is no coincidence in the fact that relativism as a philosophical understanding is happening just as the Theories of Relativity are coming of age, and we are understanding the relative nature of the universe (imagine the change in our zeitgeist as quantum mechanics comes of age, and we began to understand reality as it reflects quantum reality).

 

The problem is, will we find meaning and a unifying truth in time to save our own culture, or even in time to save mankind?

 

Assuming however that we do, or, considering that we are at least trying, does this mean that we are therefore superior as a culture that could lead mankind into the future? Not really---first of all, it is our own cultural shortcomings that has put us into this situation, secondly, this is a situation that has happened before.

 

Consider dualism, for example. The Hindu's long ago, took the problem of duality and defused its negative implications by developing a philosophy/unifying truth that focuses on transcendence. Granted, they did not resolve the issue, but they did create a unifying truth that has produced one of the longest surviving cultures, and longest surviving civilizations, in history. Is Indian civilization superior? Well, in some ways we could argue, yes-----but it is a very repressive culture built upon a strong group ethic, and for us, would represent a step backwards, not a step forward, and would therefore not resolve the current condition.

 

I also argue that their resolution to the problem of duality is not an answer for us. We are witnessing the break down of dualism, not a dialectic. Therefore we must ask, what is left if there is no duality? One answer is a singularity---but this cannot be our answer, because we do not have an existential experience of reality as a singularity (and this is true no matter how hard we try to be reductionist). The other answer is a multiplicity----and not surprisingly, this is in fact reflective of our actual existential experience of reality. We don't live in a world that is a continuous battle between two opposing forces. We live in a world filled with all kinds of forces. Even human relations are becoming less a question of two opposing genders, and more a question of differing humans. And imagine that-------a multiplicity is more reflective of a universe based on quantum reality than dualism.

 

But indigenous people all over the world have seen reality in terms of a multiplicity since well before we ever tried to record their beliefs. Does this make their culture superior?

 

Or, consider their concept of group ethic, the closer they are tied to their hunter-gatherer roots, the less formulated is their group ethic. In fact, all over the world, their version of individualism is one that gives true value to the individual. This is very different from American (and now global) industrial individualism---which is not really individualist in nature----but actually a version of elitist group ethic. To be an individual in the modern world---you have to 'make it' in your peer, professional, or other social, group-----otherwise you are a nobody. Who you are is a reflection of your credit report, your police record, your college degree, etc. etc. etc. In indigenous cultures the world over you are who you are, and they understand that each person has existential freedom to gain new skills, new understandings, to be a new person.

 

So are indigenous cultures superior? They are literally the oldest cultures on earth. They certainly have values that we seem to be struggling to understand in our own way. Yes, there are ways that they are superior (and imagine that, they are the one's we label as savage and primitive...) But would you be able to give up all of your technology, the comforts you enjoy, the medicines that may be saving your life, and so forth, to return to an indigenous lifestyle? Probably not.

 

Every culture is superior in its own right-----and that is a glimpse of the truth behind multipicity...


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#14 Mountain Valley Wolf

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Posted October 16 2015 - 02:34 PM

 

Im most interested in Japanese culture, when I retire being an expat in tokyo might warrant serious consideration


Go for it----you could study calligraphy, or tea ceremony, or some other traditional are and have a cultural visa.

But you will find, like every other foreigner else that lives there, you will have a definite love-hate relationship with the culture. It is a fascinating culture though, and if you are fascinated with Japanese pop culture it is an exciting fast paced culture----a social experiment for you to watch change and evolve in its own right. For example, the children in Japan today live in almost completely completely alien culture from that of their grandparents. One could argue that this is true of any country-----but it is far more so in Japan than you would find in just about any other First World Nation.

If it is traditional culture that you love, well, I think Westerners fall in love with that spark that is buried under centuries of Confucianist ethic. I am talking about a nature-based creativity that is incredibly aesthetic, vibrant, rich, full of life, very existentialist... Unfortunately, there was a time when the Japanese believed the Chinese to be their superior and adopted the rationalist-objectivism of Confucianism. (See how negative it is to label one culture superior to another?)

Unfortunately this buried that Japanese nature of spontaneous creativity----breaking it up and placing it into many boxes. Haiku, for example is an increduble art form that sometimes lifts the veil of physical reality to give a glimpse of what may be underneath. But Japanese today over-analyze haiku, approaching it from a rational standpoint. Haiku originates in the irrational heart---not the rational mind. For example, several times I have submitted haiku to contests at Buddhist temples or online. Several times I won the contest. The time I didn't win I received honorable mention. I am fluent in Japanese, but I am not a native speaker. But I write from the heart.

Everything in Japan is 'in a box.' As creative as they are, they are still doing it from one of their boxes. Spend a few years in Japan and you will know what I am talking about. I lived in Japan for about 15 years.

But, I wouldn't give up any of those 15 years for the world.

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#15 BlackBillBlake

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Posted October 16 2015 - 02:45 PM

I think it depends on what criteria you use to define superiority and inferiority. And that raises some deep questions. 

 

I'm inclined to the view that western culture has become somewhat toxic. But being a westerner, I'm as stuck with it in some ways as even the most ardent of cheerleaders for the whole  enterprise.

For example, I think in the English language. I can think in French to some extent if I concentrate, but it's not that different. How would it be if I could think in the Bushman language? Or Chinese even?

 

I think the main problem with western culture is that it tends to isolate the individual and distance them from the natural world, and the organic extended clan or tribe, But we are all part of that natural world, and in living our lives disconnected from nature, we also tend to disconnect from our own being. We become something like ciphers in a wholly artificial construction. We can no longer read the code that is writ large in all things. Thus we become less than the human entities nature forged us to be. In simple terms, western culture fucks people over at an essential level. You have to try to make them more like ants if you want this kind of culture. 

 

About the best we can hope for might be some kind of purification of the culture. We reject what is bad, nurture what is good. But the chances of that occurring are very low. A huge and widespread spiritual awakening might do the job. It's probably the only hope for the future. The sleepers must awaken.


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#16 MeAgain

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Posted October 16 2015 - 03:15 PM

Western culture is more advanced in the areas of human rights, technology, science, and rational thought. There are bumps along the way, but generally we are advancing in all those areas and in broad terms we are ahead of most of the other parts of the world.

 

It is having problems with morals at a local level in some segments, but at a national awareness level it is improving year by year. The local problems are the result of one segment of the culture advancing faster than others and of certain special interest groups retaining too much power. Also our educational system, due to poor funding and and leadership at the policy level, is not keeping up with the moral changes we are encountering.


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#17 Moonglow181

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Posted October 16 2015 - 03:22 PM

In some ways, yes, and in some ways, no...Western culture does not have Eastern culture beat in medicine and natural remedies......Western is too wrapped up in the business greed of medicine and money to really advocate for real healing.

#18 Metal Groomp

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Posted October 16 2015 - 03:49 PM

Well, compared to other cultures, yeah, it does.


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#19 librarygirl

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Posted June 27 2016 - 04:18 PM

looking things culturally raises many issues and I don't think it's possible to label some cultures as being inferior than the other, history and environment dictates its constitution and culture is too complex a term to judge by ranking it. But I do think you can compare in values, and I believe that the western values are superior to any others, history has proven that and it will continue to do so, as Douglas Murray has correctly pointed out. and yes western values demands sacrifice when and where it is necessary however if people choose to think that this is unforgivable, there's that. 



#20 Ajay0

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Posted July 29 2016 - 04:15 AM

I was just wondering. Is western culture superior to others (by "western", I am including the USA, Canada, and Europe)?

 

Islamic culture particularly comes to mind. Did you know in Saudi Arabia (one of our [allegedly] closest allies), they'll chop of your hand for stealing a loaf of bread?

 

I am somewhat hesitant to say it, because I fear the ire of my fellow liberals. But I want to start the discussion, by saying emphatically "YES".

 

What do the rest of you think?

 

:toilet:

 

Every culture has its ups and downs. In ancient times, India, Zoroastrian Persia,Egypt, Greece and China were the sole civilized nations in the world. Later came the romans, the arabs and the mongolians. Greek culture permeated to the rest of european culture , which were in a savage

barbaric and uncivilized state and helped develop them up . The arabs too promoted the development of the west as they taught the Hindu-Arabic numeral system and mathematics to the west which prepared the foundation for western science and technology as it is now. 

 

But now the Greeks are nowhere, while the nations they helped civilize have gotten ahead of them. Same too with Italy. And same with the arabs. 

 

The point is that no nation rides the crest of the wave for long before being slammed to the ground by time. 


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#21 Asmo

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Posted July 29 2016 - 04:18 AM

The west... is the best. Get here and we'll do the rest!


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#22 Ajay0

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Posted July 29 2016 - 04:44 AM

The west... is the best. Get here and we'll do the rest!

 

The west... is the best in compounding the problem of greenhouse warming, which is now tipping the balance of nature and global temperatures to the danger side, due to their unrestrained and unregulated use of resources. 

 

Even though just 5 per cent of the world population, the Americans consume around 25 per cent of the world's oil. 


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#23 Asmo

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Posted July 29 2016 - 04:49 AM

Sometimes I think the sooner the world runs out of oil the better. Still seems a shitload of it though (not all of it is easy to get to). 


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#24 Meliai

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Posted July 29 2016 - 08:43 AM

This thread brings me back to the innocent days of 2014 when visiting Damascus still seemed like a reality, however distant.

Not sure what will be left it it ever becomes safe to travel there at all

Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens ~Tolkien


#25 Wu Li Heron

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Posted July 29 2016 - 09:41 AM

Civilized culture is an oxymoron.



#26 BlackBillBlake

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Posted July 29 2016 - 09:47 AM

Sometimes I think the sooner the world runs out of oil the better. Still seems a shitload of it though (not all of it is easy to get to). 

Somehow I doubt that the transition to an oil free world is going to go off peacefully.


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#27 Yggdrazil

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Posted July 29 2016 - 10:37 AM

I measure superiority of a culture by its production, sustainability and expandability. Western culture might have been superior at one point, but it isn't anymore. Overgrown corporate culture, consumerist mainstream mentality, and die-hard capitalists have sold out their nations. Populations are on the decline and strong family units are disappearing more and more due to domestic issues, mainly the fault of gynocentrism and anti-marriage. Big businesses are completely out of control. Private business should NOT run the lives of citizens.


Edited by StellarCoon, July 29 2016 - 11:24 AM.

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#28 DarkSideOfTheMoon94

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Posted October 24 2016 - 10:54 AM

It has it's ups and downs. Big Business has done a number on it, which in turn has exploited a lot of countries that make our culture appear much better than the rest of the worlds cultures.

All cultures have something to learn from and a uniqueness that deserves a voice, but there are no superior cultures by any means, and if anything our consumerism and "american dream" chasing has led to our decline and has severely damaged our planet.

 

 What defines superior culture in the 21st Century has been determined by how many nukes you have and how high your military spending budget is since 1945.

 

Both eastern and western cultures aren't perfect, but I think they both have some qualities that if brought together, could form a decent society/culture. (Excluding the middle east on the eastern cultures though, no room for fundamentalism in todays world)  


Edited by DarkSideOfTheMoon94, October 24 2016 - 10:57 AM.

:sunny: If you're reading this, I hope you have an awesome day!  :sunny: 

 

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Or that shinning ball of blue we can call our home?"

 


#29 NoxiousGas

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Posted October 24 2016 - 04:44 PM

the OP stated "culture" when in reality I'm pretty sure he meant "society" or maybe "civilization".

I can understand America and Europe under the same "society" or "civ" umbrella, but definitely not the same "culture" umbrella.

 

SOCIETY:

1.an organized group of persons associated together for religious, benevolent, cultural, scientific, political, patriotic, or other purposes.
2.a body of individuals living as members of a community; community.
3.the body of human beings generally, associated or viewed as members of a community:
the evolution of human society.
4.a highly structured system of human organization for large-scale community living that normally furnishes protection, continuity, security, and a national identity for its members:
American society.
5.such a system characterized by its dominant economic class or form:
middle-class society; industrial society
 
CULTURE:
1.the quality in a person or society that arises from a concern for what is regarded as excellent in arts, letters, manners, scholarly pursuits, etc.
2.that which is excellent in the arts, manners, etc.
3.a particular form or stage of civilization, as that of a certain nation or period:
Greek culture.
4.development or improvement of the mind by education or training.
5.the behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group:
the youth culture; the drug culture.
6.Anthropology. the sum total of ways of living built up by a group of human beings and transmitted from one generation to another.
 

Society is the canvas and frame, culture is the picture painted on it.

 

Most responses focused on culture rather than society, and as such most are correct that "superior" when talking culture is purely subjective, but when discussing society, it is not nearly as subjective.

the only one who seemed to pick-up on the OP's intention was MeAgain as he discusses societal differences rather than cultural, except when he goes off about special interest groups.

 

Western culture is more advanced in the areas of human rights, technology, science, and rational thought. There are bumps along the way, but generally we are advancing in all those areas and in broad terms we are ahead of most of the other parts of the world.

 

It is having problems with morals at a local level in some segments, but at a national awareness level it is improving year by year. The local problems are the result of one segment of the culture advancing faster than others and of certain special interest groups retaining too much power. Also our educational system, due to poor funding and and leadership at the policy level, is not keeping up with the moral changes we are encountering.

 

What I see is the coalescing of ideas over the course of history, coinciding with expansion/exploration geographically. In that sense we can see both humans and human society evolve as we migrated from the Eastern hemisphere of the planet to the Western hemisphere.

In a very literal sense the North American continent represents a culmination of that movement/evolution of human society and it is superior in that it has been built on the framework of and borrows from almost every other society on Earth, geographically and historically.

Granted there have been and are outstanding "singular" societies, but the real "superiority" is achieved by utilizing the best features of each society/culture into one, which is what a lot of modern Western society/civilization is an attempt to achieve ;)


Edited by NoxiousGas, October 24 2016 - 04:45 PM.

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#30 OldDude2

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Posted October 24 2016 - 04:58 PM

I was just wondering. Is western culture superior to others (by "western", I am including the USA, Canada, and Europe)?
 
Islamic culture particularly comes to mind. Did you know in Saudi Arabia (one of our [allegedly] closest allies), they'll chop of your hand for stealing a loaf of bread?


IMHO western culture is vastly inferior to Islamic culture (for men and children).
Islam wins hands down (or should that be hand off) for stable family units, almost no divorce and no adultery ..... the kids always have a mom and dad looking after them.
For men, you don't lose your house, kids or assets in a divorce (if it were to happen), it all belongs to you. Your wife can't restrict or control you through your access to sex, she has no right of consent, they are your property.
My pals in Oman are allowed 3 wives, none of them are divorced, when they have problems with one, they just add to their collection. Strange thing is, the Omani women seem far happier restricted under Islam than most western women with all their choices.
In the western world, a woman only needs to cry rape and point her finger, and the poor guy is arrested and questioned, no evidence needed. In the Islamic world, the woman would be arrested and probably flogged/jailed for lewd behaviour. (now just think about this a bit, Islamic women aren't allowed out of the house alone, so the only reason they could be in this sort of danger was if they pre-planned the event)

So OK, if you're a thief it's not so convenient, but I'd like people who steal my stuff to suffer a bit!

I moved out of the West 9 years ago, to live in the East, and I'm far happier without all the control government and women (I dated/slept with) had over me.
The only people that think West is best, are those that haven't lived anywhere else, and believe all the jingoistic (anti-everywhere else) propaganda their governments feed them


Americans are the only race which passed directly from barbarism to decadence without knowing civilization - Unknown French writer.

Edited by OldDude2, October 24 2016 - 05:19 PM.

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