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Validity and Acceptance of the 'Zoo Hypothesis'.




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#1 Jimbee68

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Posted June 17 2014 - 02:37 PM

I was just wondering how valid--and how widely accepted--is the Zoo Hypothesis, when it comes to the the Fermi Paradox. Here is a wiki link to the Zoo Hypothesis: http://en.wikipedia..../Zoo_hypothesis Here is the one to the Fermi Paradox: http://en.wikipedia....i/Fermi_paradox.

As you can plainly see (or read, as the case may be), the Fermi Paradox seeks to reconcile the fact that there likely are highly advanced aliens in the universe, and yet they choose not to contact us. And the Zoo Hypothesis (which sort of reads like the Prime Directive of the fictional Star Trek universe) seeks to provide one answer to the paradox.

And I place this question in The Future, because I wonder if for this reason, alien won't indeed contact us in the future. (And sorry, UFO enthusiasts, I don't believe UFO have already contacted us:)!)

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#2 BeachBall

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Posted June 18 2014 - 09:59 AM

I don't see that the zoo paradox is a paradox at all.

Suppose our scientists were able to prove that there is an alien race on a planet orbiting a sun 65 light years distant with the intelligence, culture and communication skills of a hedgehog out there ... would you think there was any point in expending effort on trying to "contact" them?
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this really requires a more in-depth answer than i'm willing to type right now.


#3 themnax

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Posted June 19 2014 - 08:42 AM

i know hypothetically that if i were a voting member of some kind of galactic united nations, i'd be really cautious about making any kind of open contact with a world at earth's current stage of social and moral development.

off the record, and if past lives count, i don't have to be hypothetical about it at all.

IF we truly have NOT been observed, then i rather suspect the speed of light might have something to do with it. that is, if it is actually the limit of anything other then how fast being able to see anything gets from one place to another.

there's a lot that 'remains to be seen', pun or no pun, about all of that.

personally i suspect we've been under clandestine observation for centuries, even thousands of years, without being openly contacted; and really, what humans seem to believe about their own species, is a very good reason for not yet establishing relationships.

i don't think we're regarded so much as sub-sapient as somewhat deranged, mentally and morally unstable and thus dangerous.

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#4 TheGhost

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Posted June 19 2014 - 09:02 AM

If I were an alien I wouldn't contact us.

This place is scary as shit. And to them it's gotta be ass backwards
We're all foreigners .... almost everywhere.

#5 themnax

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Posted June 20 2014 - 01:26 AM

precisely. but you know what? we CAN un-assbackwards ourselves. very likely to survive ourselves, our future will depend on our doing so.

when a person starts acting decent, they may find they have friends. the same may be true of our species and our world.

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#6 themnax

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Posted September 04 2015 - 12:48 AM

other then idle curiosity, and probably very expensive idle curiousity, "oh look, another planet in its solar system's goldy locks zone, it might have sapeint life, lets go look", why WOULD anyone who could get here, pick our earth, over any other planet in any other star's solar system's goldylocks zone, other then by pure random chance?


Edited by themnax, September 04 2015 - 12:48 AM.

my nation is the imagination

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and thank god i'm not quite human

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#7 guerillabedlam

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Posted September 17 2015 - 07:44 AM

other then idle curiosity, and probably very expensive idle curiousity, "oh look, another planet in its solar system's goldy locks zone, it might have sapeint life, lets go look", why WOULD anyone who could get here, pick our earth, over any other planet in any other star's solar system's goldylocks zone, other then by pure random chance?


Practical Reasons I can think of off the top of my head would include proximity, resources, and temperature/climate. There could probably be numerous other reasons as well.

Edited by guerillabedlam, September 17 2015 - 07:45 AM.

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#8 themnax

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Posted September 18 2015 - 11:54 PM

Practical Reasons I can think of off the top of my head would include proximity, resources, and temperature/climate. There could probably be numerous other reasons as well.

those would all be reasons to pick someplace closer to THEIR world then ours.


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and thank god i'm not quite human

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#9 guerillabedlam

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Posted September 19 2015 - 02:20 AM

those would all be reasons to pick someplace closer to THEIR world then ours.


Lol what? What are you smoking themnax?

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#10 themnax

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Posted September 19 2015 - 02:31 AM

what are you?  why people from someplace else, would or would not come here, WAS the TOPIC. 


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and thank god i'm not quite human

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#11 guerillabedlam

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Posted September 19 2015 - 02:41 AM

what are you?  why people from someplace else, would or would not come here, WAS the TOPIC.


I know, Those are some potential reasons advanced aliens would visit OUR planet if they were traveling the cosmos. Lol I don't see what you are confused about here...

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#12 Piney

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Posted September 19 2015 - 03:48 AM

I don't see that the zoo paradox is a paradox at all.

Suppose our scientists were able to prove that there is an alien race on a planet orbiting a sun 65 light years distant with the intelligence, culture and communication skills of a hedgehog out there ... would you think there was any point in expending effort on trying to "contact" them?

 

Our Government makes all sorts of outreach attempts toward idiots right here on planet earth,

 

expense and effort be dammed. 

 

So yeah perhaps we can expand government subsidies to aliens.

 

Maybee they need to be shipped weapons, imagine the contract.



#13 Vanilla Gorilla

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Posted September 19 2015 - 04:31 AM

Where are we headed with our evolution though

Does every advanced species end up turning into energy, living in a virtual world, thus what is the use of bothering with other planets...or even evolve to the point we all forget about 3D space...thats why we've never had contact

Or solving that puzzle to get to a planet in another galaxy, what if just travelling such distnaces in an instant changes space and time, reality somehow in a way we dont know such that the destination point is changed. Another possibility as to why weve never had contact

#14 guerillabedlam

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Posted September 21 2015 - 01:56 AM

Edward Snowden addressed this topic recently:

"If you look at encrypted communication, if they are properly encrypted, there is no real way to tell that they are encrypted," Snowden said. "You can't distinguish a properly encrypted communication from random behavior."

In essence, he believes that if aliens are smart, they'll already be encrypting everything. He said that communication remains unencrypted "until society realizes how dangerous that is." Are we there yet? Yes, we are.

The consequence for potential human-alien chats is this: "If you have an an alien civilization trying to listen for other civilizations, or our civilization trying to listen for aliens, there's only one small period in the development of their society when all of their communications will be sent via the most primitive and most unprotected means."

If something is perfectly encrypted, you wouldn't even know it's communication, so not even a security agency would think to intercept it. It would come across as mere noise. Ergo, aliens might be trying to communicate, but their natural communication systems are completely encrypted. So we don't even notice that this is an alien writing, "Hey, what's it like being a Tampa Bay Buccanneers' fan? Isn't it totally depressing?"


https://www.yahoo.co...-170526067.html
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#15 themnax

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Posted September 21 2015 - 06:54 AM

I know, Those are some potential reasons advanced aliens would visit OUR planet if they were traveling the cosmos. Lol I don't see what you are confused about here...

there is no confusion, and sorry, they're not.  its just as far from there to here as from here to there.  there's really no better reason to come here, then sheer curiosity.  (expensive curiosity, because however advanced, the kind of distances involved, will always be expensive in some sort of real terms)   whatever resources we have, would be cheaper and easier to attain, (from other bodies in their own solar systems, if not their home planet) closer to there, then coming here for them.  its a matter of scale.  distances between solar systems are at minimum, thousands if not billions of times greater, then distances between bodies within them.  even if you could create shortcuts, the energy to create them would cost just as much.

 

(i suppose you could have meant curiosity as to how we are using them.  if so, certainly possible, but still expensive curiosity.  more expensive then anything beyond knowledge, to be gained by it)

 

(proximity?  we're just not that close to anyplace else.  few solar systems are particularly close to any others.  with the exception of those sharing multiple suns.  we're not part of one of them.  proximity is precisely my point.  other planets, moons, asteroids, et all, in the same solar system, are hundreds, thousands, big number whatever, then any even nearest, other solar system.  even given cheap trans galactic transportation, there is no reason to assume ours, any more attractive, in any of those ways, then any other solar system out there.  only sheer chance, or a really high value placed upon curiosity, would bring anyone here.)


Edited by themnax, September 21 2015 - 07:05 AM.

my nation is the imagination

this is the dawning of the age of zootopia

and thank god i'm not quite human

=^^=
.../\...


#16 guerillabedlam

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Posted September 21 2015 - 08:07 AM

there is no confusion, and sorry, they're not. its just as far from there to here as from here to there. there's really no better reason to come here, then sheer curiosity. (expensive curiosity, because however advanced, the kind of distances involved, will always be expensive in some sort of real terms) whatever resources we have, would be cheaper and easier to attain, (from other bodies in their own solar systems, if not their home planet) closer to there, then coming here for them. its a matter of scale. distances between solar systems are at minimum, thousands if not billions of times greater, then distances between bodies within them. even if you could create shortcuts, the energy to create them would cost just as much.

(i suppose you could have meant curiosity as to how we are using them. if so, certainly possible, but still expensive curiosity. more expensive then anything beyond knowledge, to be gained by it)

(proximity? we're just not that close to anyplace else. few solar systems are particularly close to any others. with the exception of those sharing multiple suns. we're not part of one of them. proximity is precisely my point. other planets, moons, asteroids, et all, in the same solar system, are hundreds, thousands, big number whatever, then any even nearest, other solar system. even given cheap trans galactic transportation, there is no reason to assume ours, any more attractive, in any of those ways, then any other solar system out there. only sheer chance, or a really high value placed upon curiosity, would bring anyone here.)

Coming from the guy who thinks "supernatural beings can exist simply because they want to," it is a Joke to me that all of a sudden you are trying to lay down such rigid analysis. :rofl: it comes across as extremely disingenuous on your part and inconsistent with many things you have said in the past in regards to unknown entities.

Let me break this down for you...

We don't know the circumstances of their home planet, so the reasons why they would leave their planet and solar system is an unknown variable. For all we know they have some advanced climate change going on, which has pretty much decimated all their resources and made their planet uninhabitable. (Just 1 hypothetical) or how about nearby Supernovas?


So with that unknown factor in mind, I'll elaborate on each reason I mentioned, which seems approaching stupidity because they seem so glaringly obvious but apparently you think in a grossly different way:

Proximity: If we were 10 light years away and another potentially habitable planet is 20 light years away, they may opt for our planet due to being closer.

Resources: We have some commodities of resources here on Earth, perhaps the most notable one is water. (there are others I.e. minerals, plants and life) If traveling the few extra light years was not an issue, it would be Better to make the trek to a different solar system for the abundance of the resource, if there were scarce availability of resource on their planet and in their solar system. Water is an excellent example here to show where you are erroneous in your thinking. The whole concept of the Goldilocks zone, a term which you used yourself, is based on the idea That water is a key ingredient for life and many scientists are looking beyond the scarce supply of water which potentially may be present in limited amounts on a few planet's satellites in our solar system to exosolar planets, that reside in a zone which likely provides an abundance of water, comparable to Earth and thus conditions appropriate for life.

Temperature/Climate: This can piggyback on the resources answer, Earth potentially may provide ideal temperate conditions, it's presumably pretty unique conditions, at least within a
2.35139993 × 10^13 miles stretch of space.


There then could be any number of more "exotic" reasons which are harder to entertain. For instance, maybe aliens and their crafts are magnetically attracted to water and they get stuck on Earth without any intentions of doing so.

These are just practical reasons with a human frame of reference in mind, entertaining aliens with obviously a significantly more capable ability to traverse the cosmos.

Edited by guerillabedlam, September 21 2015 - 08:27 AM.

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#17 IRQ42

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Posted September 21 2015 - 08:46 AM

Edward Snowden addressed this topic recently:
https://www.yahoo.co...-170526067.html


this is what I've always thought, there would only be a relatively small window where communications were sent using means where the signal even vaguely resembled the message.

also, their path of technological development may have taken a quite different path than our own in ways we couldnt easily imagine.
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#18 themnax

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Posted October 16 2015 - 12:46 AM

Coming from the guy who thinks "supernatural beings can exist simply because they want to," it is a Joke to me that all of a sudden you are trying to lay down such rigid analysis. rofl.gif it comes across as extremely disingenuous on your part and inconsistent with many things you have said in the past in regards to unknown entities.

Let me break this down for you...

We don't know the circumstances of their home planet, so the reasons why they would leave their planet and solar system is an unknown variable. For all we know they have some advanced climate change going on, which has pretty much decimated all their resources and made their planet uninhabitable. (Just 1 hypothetical) or how about nearby Supernovas?


So with that unknown factor in mind, I'll elaborate on each reason I mentioned, which seems approaching stupidity because they seem so glaringly obvious but apparently you think in a grossly different way:

Proximity: If we were 10 light years away and another potentially habitable planet is 20 light years away, they may opt for our planet due to being closer.

Resources: We have some commodities of resources here on Earth, perhaps the most notable one is water. (there are others I.e. minerals, plants and life) If traveling the few extra light years was not an issue, it would be Better to make the trek to a different solar system for the abundance of the resource, if there were scarce availability of resource on their planet and in their solar system. Water is an excellent example here to show where you are erroneous in your thinking. The whole concept of the Goldilocks zone, a term which you used yourself, is based on the idea That water is a key ingredient for life and many scientists are looking beyond the scarce supply of water which potentially may be present in limited amounts on a few planet's satellites in our solar system to exosolar planets, that reside in a zone which likely provides an abundance of water, comparable to Earth and thus conditions appropriate for life.

Temperature/Climate: This can piggyback on the resources answer, Earth potentially may provide ideal temperate conditions, it's presumably pretty unique conditions, at least within a
2.35139993 × 10^13 miles stretch of space.


There then could be any number of more "exotic" reasons which are harder to entertain. For instance, maybe aliens and their crafts are magnetically attracted to water and they get stuck on Earth without any intentions of doing so.

These are just practical reasons with a human frame of reference in mind, entertaining aliens with obviously a significantly more capable ability to traverse the cosmos.

i really don't think you're getting, just how many times further it is between solar systems, then the furthest distances within them.  and if the speed of light were no barrier, what makes you think other solar systems with everything ours has to offer, wouldn't be closer, cheaper, and more practical to get to, then ours?  sure ours has all these great things you mention, but on what basis do you assume, most others don't just as well?

 

a "human frame of reference" is simply NOT "being practical" in this context at all.


Edited by themnax, October 16 2015 - 12:48 AM.

my nation is the imagination

this is the dawning of the age of zootopia

and thank god i'm not quite human

=^^=
.../\...


#19 guerillabedlam

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Posted October 16 2015 - 08:21 AM

i really don't think you're getting, just how many times further it is between solar systems, then the furthest distances within them. and if the speed of light were no barrier, what makes you think other solar systems with everything ours has to offer, wouldn't be closer, cheaper, and more practical to get to, then ours? sure ours has all these great things you mention, but on what basis do you assume, most others don't just as well?


You are providing an "if" which you and everyone else is clueless about. I never said our planet is the optimal place for extraterrestrials to go, I have been saying there are potential reasons why out planet may be a desirable place to travel.

I just gave you the distance to the nearest star, presumably that's the closest solar system.

a "human frame of reference" is simply NOT "being practical" in this context at all.


Well for one human reference is all we have...

Secondly, The practicality of it seems obvious.

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#20 meeses

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Posted October 18 2015 - 03:52 AM

Anyone ever thought that what if " THEY already live here on earth but secretively underground and/or in spiritual type. Ever heard of Shag harbour? USO's, UFO's, so let's assume they were already here.... it would solve the question of " why travel billions of light years to visit planet earth".

 

 I believe we made contact a long time ago and they have been in control of this rock for a very long time.






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