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The 4 Hour Work Day




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#31 BlackBillBlake

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Posted May 28 2014 - 07:58 AM


What currency did the native Americans have, before the white men came along with their trade goods??

What currency did they have in Iron Age Britain, before the Romans came along with their legions and their coins?


Wampum I think the Native Americans called it. Seashells.

Probably the pre-Roman Brits would have taken gold.

#32 themnax

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Posted May 30 2014 - 12:31 AM

Wampum I think the Native Americans called it. Seashells.

Probably the pre-Roman Brits would have taken gold.


nooop. you of all people would know there was no single american culture pre euro invasion. there was one culture that used something refered to as wampum. it was and is however, NOT a currency or medium of exchange.

as for the celts (pronounced kelts) they were fond of gold decoration, but i don't believe economic concepts as we like to think we know them, were yet common anywhere rome, greece, egypt or india had not yet had contact with.

economics in the sense of trade, is simply not an intrinsic concept. nor were any related concepts universal. there were concepts of ownership in the sense of utilization rights, but only in some cultures, nor did those which had them define or even conceive them in the same ways as each other.

trade of some sort did develop, more likely potlatching then barter, as evidenced by artifacts created in one place and culture showing up in another, sometimes half a world away. though parallel development also existed as well.

there are of course many uncertainties where we have only an archiological record, of where things were found and approximately when, but in the absence of laundry lists or other perminent record keeping.

the wampum you refer to, were a record of agreements along similar lines to treaties between cultures.

and again that's a localized term and method from only one place, the atlantic north east of north america.

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#33 themnax

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Posted May 30 2014 - 12:37 AM

Someone mentioned on another thread that some places like Croatia don't use currency, it made me wonder, how do they sell and buy stuff?


buying and selling stuff, is not intrinsic to the development of a technological nor civil culture. it has merely become the pervasive methodology and perspective on this world, and that, only since the development of agriculture. in many places not even then, but only after the development of metal smithing.

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#34 TheGhost

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Posted May 30 2014 - 01:06 AM

Someone mentioned on another thread that some places like Croatia don't use currency, it made me wonder, how do they sell and buy stuff?



No money in Croatia? And you believed that?
We're all foreigners .... almost everywhere.

#35 BlackBillBlake

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Posted May 30 2014 - 02:42 AM

nooop. you of all people would know there was no single american culture pre euro invasion. there was one culture that used something refered to as wampum. it was and is however, NOT a currency or medium of exchange.

as for the celts (pronounced kelts) they were fond of gold decoration, but i don't believe economic concepts as we like to think we know them, were yet common anywhere rome, greece, egypt or india had not yet had contact with.


The Eastern Woodland Native Americans used wampum. According to sources I've looked at it was used as money, and was adopted by the settlers as a medium of trade with the locals.

From Wiki:

When Europeans came to the Americas, they realized the importance of wampum to Native people. Soon, they were trading with the native peoples of New England and New York using wampum. Wampum was legal tender in New England from 1637-1661. Meanwhile it continued as currency in New York at the rate of eight white or four black wampum equalling one stuiver—meaning the white had the same value as the copper duit coin—until 1673. The colonial government issued a proclamation setting the rate at six white or three black to one penny. This proclamation also applied in New Jersey and Delaware.[11] The black shells were considered worth more than the white shells, which led people to dye the latter, and diluted the value of the shells.

Writing about tribes in Virginia in 1705, Robert Beverley, Jr. of Virginia Colony describes peak as referring to the white shell bead, valued at 9 pence a yard, and wampom peak as denoting specifically the more expensive dark purple shell bead, at the rate of 1 shilling and 6 pence (18 pence) per yard. He says that these polished shells with drilled holes are made from the cunk (conch), while another currency of lesser value, called roenoke was fashioned from the cockleshell.[12]

As for the pre-Roman Britons, call them Celts if you want, gold coins have been found.
From Wiki again:

In Southeast Britain, meanwhile, extensive contact with the ‘Belgic’ tribes of Northern France is evidenced by large numbers of imported Gallo-Belgic gold coins between the mid-2nd century BC and Caesar’s conquest of Gaul in the 50s BC.[23]

From http://www.localhist...s.org/celt.html

Trade with Europe was common. Metals like copper, tin, iron and lead were exported from England. Wool, cloth, skins and grain were also exported. Luxury goods like fine pottery and expensive metal goods were imported from Europe. At first the Celts used iron bars as a form of currency but by about 50 BC they were using gold coins.

#36 IamnotaMan I AM THOR

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Posted May 31 2014 - 03:09 PM

With advances in automation and the possible issue of technological unemployment, we might need to consider a future reduction in the work day for different types of jobs.

http://www.4hourworkday.org/benefits



Its a very interesting bk. Really its about working smarter on the key stuff, and delegating lesser shit.

But it does have its limitations. An employee in England doesn't actually cost much more than an Indian one. And you do have extra benefits with the English one - face to face contact, job grants, and the fact they are doing real life networking for you.

Second, the book works great for people without ties. But you cant really drag your kids off to school in Argentina one month, and Timbuktu the next.

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#37 Asmo

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Posted May 31 2014 - 03:11 PM

No money in Croatia? And you believed that?


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#38 themnax

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Posted June 04 2014 - 12:45 AM

hunting and gathering was essentially replaced by nomadic herding, nomadic herds were replaced by agriculture and with it land. the landed gentry were then replaced by money. i see no logic in assuming money, won't in tern be replaced, especially when you can upload and download the cow itself, instead of having to symbolically represent it. replaced perhaps by actual technological skill.
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#39 themnax

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Posted June 04 2014 - 12:46 AM

nomadic herds replaced hunting and gathering, land and agriculture replaced nomandic herds and money replaced the landed gentry. i see no logic in assuming money's time won't come and its being replaced by something else. something such as for example, actual technological skill.

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#40 BlackBillBlake

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Posted June 04 2014 - 10:18 AM

I'm not sure if we can easily get rid of money in itself, but we could treat money differently, and the nature of money itself could change. It is or should be really only a convenient medium of exchange and a store of value.

One thing that needs to happen I think, is that we need to find ways to reward people for what they are rather than just what they do. Which isn't to say people shouldn't be rewarded for doing good things.

At present you can be a total dick head, a thoroughly obnoxious person, but if you earn a lot of money it's ok. On the other hand you could be the nicest and wisest of people and be poor and thus regarded as dirt by the money consciousness.

An interim solution that's been mooted is to give everyone a basic income regardless of what they earn or what they do. People would be free to earn more on top of that, but it would eliminate poverty and maybe help to pull some people out of generations of abject poverty with it's concomitant lack of opportunities for education, personal growth etc.
I believe the Swiss have been considering such a scheme.

#41 themnax

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Posted June 04 2014 - 11:29 AM

its not a matter of getting rid of, or choosing to do so, but rather that time moves on, and there is nothing so intrinsic about the concept as people have been convinced to imagine. just because its a box most people don't think beyond, well there have been many other such boxes in the past, and they too have come and gone.

some fads last a few months, some last for millinia, but they still eventually pass on.

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and thank god i'm not quite human

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#42 BlackBillBlake

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Posted June 04 2014 - 11:42 AM

its not a matter of getting rid of, or choosing to do so, but rather that time moves on, and there is nothing so intrinsic about the concept as people have been convinced to imagine. just because its a box most people don't think beyond, well there have been many other such boxes in the past, and they too have come and gone.

some fads last a few months, some last for millinia, but they still eventually pass on.


You may well be right. Things could change beyond what we can imagine.

Obviously money is not anything intrinsic to humans, it's part of a cultural construction. I wouldn't argue against that. It's intrinsic though to most of our modern institutions.

I think money itself will be around for sometime to come. The transition to a post money world would have to come in stages.

#43 themnax

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Posted June 07 2014 - 10:21 PM

You may well be right. Things could change beyond what we can imagine.

Obviously money is not anything intrinsic to humans, it's part of a cultural construction. I wouldn't argue against that. It's intrinsic though to most of our modern institutions.

I think money itself will be around for sometime to come. The transition to a post money world would have to come in stages.


oh absolutely. my point is there's nothing so intrinsic about those institutions either. you know we may be witnessing the beginning of many of them breaking down. some have served us reasonably well. some have served only to wrap us in illusions. those illusions, many of them, have already begun to fray around the edges, and are unlikely to survive the environmental changes we have inflicted upon ourselves and continue to do so.

marxists used to say they would bury capitalism. well it isn't that. its that all ideology is digging its own hole that is burying itself.

i belive the more fanatical people get about trying to prevent this, the faster they are forcing it to happen.

how many of these institutions would survive something like an 80 or more per cent reduction in human population of a period of little more then a single decade? not many i would rather suspect, when nearly everyone is dying, not of some war or even the affects of war, but from famine and disease, resulting from what we are doing now, with our dependence on carbon, to, ultimately, nature's ability to sustain our own species.

this is not some way out there speculation, but a real possibility, even probability, not in some far off century, but quite possibly in a very few years.

many factors too, can blind side us with more raped then expected changes of many kinds. certainly almost no one, for the first 30 years of my life, would have believed what we have seen and are seeing, these past 35 or so years since.

only future events will probe me right or wrong, but i also suspect, those who believe arming themselves and the use of force can be any answer to this, will be among the first to remove themselves from the stage, by killing each other off. not always intentionally. but in accidents that happen for example, when local armed militants, fight over control munitions manufacturing facilities.

no gun can prevent the accelerated mutation of diseases either. so for all their bravado, they'll still be dying of them along with everyone else, even if they do settle this way who gets to loot that last can of peaches off nearly empty convenience store shelves.

not that it has to get that bad. but preventing it from getting that bad or worse, really depends on weaning infrastructure off of carbon and other non-renewables dependence.

my nation is the imagination

this is the dawning of the age of zootopia

and thank god i'm not quite human

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.../\...


#44 BlackBillBlake

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Posted June 10 2014 - 11:01 AM

themnax -

It seems inevitable to me that most of our current institutions and in fact ideas are not going to be of much use in the future.
You say you began to see this coming around 35 years ago, I began to worry about the things we're doing to the earth around the age of 18 or so, back in the 70's.

Since then it seems just so many negative things have been building up that something is definitely going to go, or more likely, many things at once will hit us during the 21st century.
I don't want to list all the problems, and I agree with a lot of what you say in your post, but just a few-
Climate change
The death of the Oceans
Massive human overpopulation
Economic breakdown
Diseases which are completely resistant to anti-biotics
More conflict over dwindling resources.

So far our institutions have been pretty useless at doing anything real to deal with these problems.

I think that if there's to be a human future nearly everything will have to change. None of the existing political ideologies offer any solutions. Just more crumbs of ideology for people to cling to as the ship goes down.

#45 IamnotaMan I AM THOR

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Posted June 12 2014 - 12:01 AM

Its a very interesting bk. Really its about working smarter on the key stuff, and delegating lesser shit.

But it does have its limitations. An employee in England doesn't actually cost much more than an Indian one. And you do have extra benefits with the English one - face to face contact, job grants, and the fact they are doing real life networking for you.

Second, the book works great for people without ties. But you cant really drag your kids off to school in Argentina one month, and Timbuktu the next.



Oops. I was referring to the 4 hour work WEEK, a book by Tim Ferriss.
Tim's book is actually pretty clever.

This thread refers to 4 hr work day. A completely different thing. And I'm amazed the writer was allowed to pass-off the title.

I've only skimmed thro it for a few seconds but 4hr work day looks a complete load of ridiculous bollocks. Devised by some looney tunes in fantasy land. Just as dangerous as the Bernie Madoffs, the Enrons, the George Bush's and all that scum from the other side

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#46 PacifistEgalitarian

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Posted June 26 2014 - 04:59 PM

Suppose we made every other Friday a 4-hour day? Or, even better, a 36-hour week divided into four 9-hour days? With wages adjusted to make up the difference. We already have 9/80 schedules which are popular with many workers.

#47 themnax

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Posted August 13 2014 - 08:28 AM

if all of the work that really needed to be done, were to be equitably destributed among everyone willing and able to do it, four hours a day, four days out of every six, with a three day weekend every third weekend of a 19 day month, would be enterely sufficient to get it done.

 

all of the monetary excuses for not doing things this way, are just that, excuses made by and for, ideological fanatacism.

 

this isn't exactly new.  nor is the opposition to it.

 

environment and context are changing, and that also is a reality.


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this is the dawning of the age of zootopia

and thank god i'm not quite human

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#48 Just_a_woman

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Posted September 19 2014 - 03:20 PM

Efficient professionals don't need to work too many hours to make a difference.



#49 themnax

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Posted October 19 2014 - 06:11 PM

no one would need to work too many hours to get done everything that needs to be. 

 

the concept of a "work week" at all, is only inherent to a culture that creates make-work. 

that motivates feelings of guilt for not LOOKING busy.


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.../\...


#50 SouthPaw

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Posted January 12 2015 - 02:16 AM

If you want to get paid more, you work more.

Ambition and self-determination work for me. Unlimited overtime since 1998 (not kidding and no, I'm not union. I used to be but they were limiting my income). I've been fortunate.

I averaged 70-80 hours/week for almost 10 years, now I'm satisfied with 40-50.

I determine my own income and standard of living. If you want to work 4 hours/day go for it. I have no problem with employers allowing you to choose.

#51 themnax

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Posted January 21 2015 - 07:13 AM

i don't want to get paid more.  i want to live in a world where i need money less.  preferably not at all. 

 

people are working more AND getting paid less.

 

ambition and self determination equal bending over and spreading the cheeks of your ass.

 

the point is a given that comforts do not create themselves.

 

but it also misses the point, of the kind of neo-feudalistic world, today's ignorance and superstition are creating.

 

a standard is something you create for nuts and bolts, when mass producing them, to make them useful. 

 

there is no such thing as a standard, for creative self awareness.


my nation is the imagination

this is the dawning of the age of zootopia

and thank god i'm not quite human

=^^=
.../\...





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