Sex and Nudism: A Philosophical Question

First of all, I'm not trolling, and I'm not unnecessarily trying to start arguments. I'm quite familiar with the common views on such things, but I have, I suppose, a philosophical question.

If Nudism/Naturism embraces the natural human body in all its shapes and manners, and rejects clothing as an arbitrary constriction of culture, why do so many who practice it completely reject and/or are horrified by sexual behavior in public? (Beyond, I mean, of course, the fact that in certain places such displays could cause the authorities to take action.)

Sex is completely natural, and as long as it is between two consenting adults, where is the difference in practicing that publicly and practicing nudity publicly? Won't most of the arguments laid against public sexual behavior simply be the same arguments that most of society makes against nudists? ("It's not acceptable!" "It's best done in private!" "It's supposed to be just between two people!" "We don't need to see that!" "We don't want our kids exposed to that!" etc.)

Is the difference between being nude in public and having sex in public simply one of degree, or is there a fundamental difference?

 

I'm a naturist but not in any way an expert on naturist philosophy, but here's the way I see it.

It's a pretty good statement that "naturism embraces the natural human body in all its shapes and manners". And that's a reminder that naturism is a human creation, so we can expect human quirks to be part of our naturist experience. And one human quirk that you'll find all over the world is that people don't want an audience for their sexual activity, nor do they want to witness anyone else's sexual activity. I just read a book, Into the Heart by Kenneth Good, which I've mentioned on this forum: it's a report on how he lived for some years among the Yanomama people of South America, and one thing he said was that they go around almost naked and live a highly communal life, with an entire village living in a single large house, but he said that the activities of defecation and sex are the two things that they're shy about. Maybe I should ask why you were a little selective in asking why naturists are reticent about sex, while leaving the issue of defecation alone--are there some things you think are private and ought to stay that way? In fact I've got a friend who has an urge to see exotic places, not always pleasantly sanitary ones, and he says there are locations where the taboo against public defecation isn't observed, a fact which he wasn't charmed to discover. But he's never come home with stories about seeing people having sex--that taboo seems just about universal, even more so than defecating privately or wearing clothes. So if you ask why naturists don't want to see sex in public, the answer might just be that naturists are normal people.

And that leads to another thing that naturists really do say about themselves, which is "We aren't weird people; we do all the things everyone does in regular life, but we think it's OK to do those things naked". And one of the things everyone does in regular life is find a private spot if they're fortunate enough to have someone to enjoy a sexual interlude with, whether that's a regular partner or a casual encounter. Or maybe "everyone" isn't quite the truth there, but it's pretty eccentric (possibly criminal) to do it out in the open. So maybe I ought to turn your question around and ask why you're directing it at naturists in the first place! Would you ask it to antique car restorers or enthusiasts for Chinese cooking? It's kind of tedious that so many people bring their sexual issues (doing, looking, or asking questions) into naturism--the world's big and naturism is small, so how about spreading these things out more evenly?

 

Thanks for your response. I ask it of naturists because naturists are self-proclaimed as disregarding one of the most commonly held social norms. I don't ask it of textiles or random interest groups because those groups all by and large conform to society's rules about what things ought to be done in private vs. public. Naturists have different opinions than most major societies about what ought to be private, so I direct my question to them.

You point about defecation in public is well made. Why is it that most cultures shy away from these things? They are all natural bodily functions, and the natural body is something I have seen many naturists exhort.

Again, though, to clarify: I'm really not trying to start an argument or ask particularly leading questions; I am looking for earnest answers from thoughtful people.

 

They shy away from such things because there has been a stigma put on those actions labeling them as dirty, disgusting, overtly erotic, etc.

 

I think the truth is that taboos in every society come singly, not in groups. And (human quirks being what they are) you won't find much logic in them. So if you ask "Why this but not that?" the best answer is a shrug and "Just because people like it that way".

Not that I have personal experience, but I've heard that at sex clubs and swinger groups, people are seldom naked. You'd think that they'd get down to business more readily if they stripped off, but apparently they're more likely to discard the taboo against being seen having sex than the taboo against being naked. So for them it's the other way around from the naturists--if you want to ask people questions about their inhibitions, maybe that would be an interesting thing to inquire about!

Now I'm recalling stories about a couple of former naturist resorts in Florida which were taken over by swingers, or where the owners encouraged that market, I'm not sure which. What people said was that as the sexual component increased, the customers became less and less likely to be naked. So maybe nudists are averse to open sex, but people on the lookout for sex are averse to nudity. Did I say "human quirks"?

 

Thanks for the responses. Jen, I understand that many people would not do it because of the exposure to children. My question is why is that a bad thing?

Don't worry; I have no desire to do anything sexual in front of kids: I'm merely wondering from an academic standpoint why that's a problem? Why do people inherently think sex must be private? I'm trying to figure out if it's fundamentally different from the views that most people hold on nudity (that it also is only in private), or if it's basically the same thing, just that there are no widespread groups who endorse it, as there are with nudists.

 

As someone who has visited nudist resorts since childhood, there remains one item that rains on the increased sexual desire when around other nudist, realistically, that is the huge amount of old flabby people that frequent theses resorts, especially men. If increased nudity promotes sex, one would have to get turned on from what they see. Yes, when I was hanging out with a younger crowd there, sex was hormonally more prevalent. Now when I go, it is more about enjoying the lifestyle. I'm in my 20's and the average age is usually about 55 and overweight. If it is about getting turned on, it isn't with me.
I admit though clothes do more to turn me on than anything. I am bi, I enjoy the mystery of what lies under clothes for a man or a woman to nudity, when it comes to turn-ons.

 

I go to both naturist recreation places, and sex clubs and swinger venues. When I go to a naturist place, I don't want it to be any more sexually charged than my local farmers' market. I just want to relax, not be hounded by horny men. As a woman who is reasonably well put together, and easy to approach, I am subjected to a lot of male attention that isn't necessarily desired (though not usually unpleasant). So, I'm used to a base level of attention, let's say. When I go to a naturist campground or community, I like that the attention isn't overwhelming. I get to participate in sports, have chats, hike, or just chill out with the pleasure of the sunshine all over my skin. In fact, lots of people seem to go out of their way to make sure not to sexualize the situation. I tend to choose places that welcome children precisely for that experience. Even though my whole body is exposed, I get less unwanted sexual attention than when I walk around in baggy clothes.

When I go to a sexually oriented nude place, I tend to get more attention than I wanted anyway, and I feel constantly defensive. I feel like every minute spent without a dick in me is a minute spent exlaining why I'm not interested in putting a specific dick in me. There are never as many women as men, and while I'm not America's Next Top Model, I'm pretty in a girl-next-door kind of way. I don't know how ugly a woman has to be to be left alone to observe and then select her own partners, or to even be allowed to just indulge her inner voyeur without constant hassle, but I'm not ugly enough for that, and it can be exhausting, even if the overall experience is positive.

Frankly, I am glad that some situations are sexually charged, and others are not. If it wasn't considered anti-social to just pull your cock out and offer it up wherever, I wouldn't enjoy life as much. Somewhat tangentially, the way our society has developed, innocence has become prized. When I have children, I would like them to learn about sex when and how I choose, in a manner that does not remove too much ignorance too soon, without making it a tabboo subject.

 

Thanks for the feedback. )

I agree with you completely. My husband and I were very lucky. The first times we socialized nude, it was with friends we'd known a few years online. It was so nice and normal. We joked around, flirted, hugged, and behaved EXACTLY as we would have in clothes. We had them over for supper wheneve possible. The other couple took us to a naturist campground where they have a beautiful RV. There we got to meet lots of other people. We had campfires and cocktails, barbeques and skinny dips. We sat around in other folks' summer homes and even our pets got to go. It was the nicest summer I can remember. We went up a few times. No one there went out of his or her way to pretend we were not sexual beings, and no one went out of his or her way to make any sexual advances. There was a nice balance.

Still, perhaps because I also frequent sexually charged atmospheres where sexual attention is often over the top, I do also really enjoy the places where special care seems to be taken to avoid sexualizing non-sexual situations. It can feel like an extreme sometimes, but generally I like the vibe. You're right though, it's all about timing and appropriateness.

I intend to raise my children as I was. I asked questions that needed to be answered very early (age two) with a clinical (but age apropriate) description of how reproduction works. My mother requested that she be allowed to think about her answers overnight, but by breakfast she answered every query. She initiated further exploration of the topic every few years. Compared with the lies some friends were told, and the too-graphic demonstration other acquaintances had, I think my experience was more ideal.

 

Thanks for the thoughtful responses, everyone.

Mocha, I'd love to hear more about the differences you've encountered between the swinging lifestyle and nudism. I've heard it said that nudity isn't actually as common in swinging atmospheres as you might expect. Is that true?

 

The FKK is a group of German naturists formed in the North Sea Isle of Sylt between Germany and Denmark. Beautiful beaches , beautiful nudists. My mother was from Nardonney , a neighboring isle. Needless to say , I was raised with positive impressions of human nudity and human sexuality. The founding principles of FKK suggest a benign sexual approach. Naturism is natural ; so is sex. Giving respect to the rights and welfare of children and others ; why should personal liberties be violated?
An interesting FYI regarding my late mother ; like most of us "ma" was a nude housekeeper. By the time she was 92 , she became forgetful. Disregarding her nudity she went to take the garbage out and was arrested. I was called at home. Quickly , I had to put some shorts on and post bail.

 

One place I used to go to, I was surprised that so many people would enter the clothing optional areas fully dressed, and remain fully dressed. In all the other places I went, I hardly ever saw a stitch of clothing anywhere outside of people just arriving or about to leave.

 

Ah ok. Interesting. Thanks!

 

The fact that something is "completely natural" by itself is not sufficient grounds to make it acceptable in public. "Natural" and "acceptable in public" are not necessarily required to go together, and throughout history, all human civilizations have declared that certain behaviors, natural or not, are taboo and subject to restrictions.

Sexual activity is almost universally subject to strong taboos regarding who and where and under what circumstances. Many human societies have much stronger taboos than we do, but aside from that, as far as I know, every human society on earth restricts it to some extent, or at least tries to ... certainly those that are beyond the Stone Age. Why? Originally it no doubt had to do with establishing parental lines and maintaining marital bonds.

Those are good reasons, or they were good at one time. Perhaps in the industrial world, they're not as good in the 21st century as in the 1st. As you point out, many of the reasons given today are along the lines of "just because", and therefore easily refuted.

But if you want to argue for it, then I think you need to make a stronger case than "it's natural". Plenty of things are "natural", but that doesn't necessarily make them ok to do out in the front yard in front of everyone.

Well, most modern societies consider there to be a fundamental difference.

 

And what is the difference, beyond societal norms? I'm very much aware that this is a taboo among pretty much all societies. What I'm trying to figure out, I suppose, is why? Is it simply because that's the way it's always been?

That's is one the fundamental arguments against nudism, too. It's traditionally been a taboo in a lot societies, so those societies fear it. There are plenty of peripheral arguments about it being bad for children and whatnot, but as any nudist can tell you, that's bunk.

 

"Societal norms" should not be scoffed at, unless they are clearly no longer applicable and causing more harm than good. There is more to human society than eating and sleeping and going to work. No societal norms at all means interpersonal and social chaos. There is a huge "societal norm" component in all human relationships. As I said in my previous post, there may or may not be a particularly compelling logical reason for any given one, but that's almost beside the point.

If you truly believe that taboos on public sex cause more harm than good to the civilization, then in my opinion that's a legitimate reason for you to advocate losing them, much more than simply saying "it's natural". And perhaps you're right about this.

My point is that societal norms fulfill a purpose, and you need to take great care if you set about abolishing them.

 

We always said if our kids were old enougth to ask we were honest with them and even now we have some very colourful conversations .As far as time and place it depends on the situation and whos present etc .My kids were always told their room was the place for intimacy with friends . As teenagers their was alot of cuddles and touching while in family rooms but they knew where to draw the line and when they disappeared there were no questions asked .If we were with friends and no kids around it often got really touchy feely and often maybe as far as handjobs and oral .It was okay because our friends werent offended by it and it often was a bit of a laugh and some even went as far as doing it with their partners as it was just ok .Just because were nudist doesnt mean we arnt like other humans we still enjoy sex and yes maybe its the exhibitionist in all of us .whether we choose to embrace it or not as the case maybe .

 

Well said.

 

Couldn't have said it better Jen. Yes, you have to be nude for sexual activity (well, mostly!) but after the sensation and thrill of sex is over with, you revert back to be being dressed and show what amounts to a feeling of shame at your earlier natural state. Nudists have sex, textiles have sex! But the greatest issue comes when people can't separate nude bodies with sex.