The Dispposable Male

Discussion in 'Men's Issues' started by David54, Mar 15, 2013.

  1. Sitka

    Sitka viajera

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    ...because civilized societies try to protect their weaker members. You should be grateful, really, because these same values are the only reason you're not somebody's prey right now.
     
  2. Meliai

    Meliai Banned

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    lol I'm glad I'm not the only one that found that completely ridiculous.

    Society doesn't make anyone take a bullet for someone else orforce someone to put their life at risk to protect another. It is done out of love, or a sense of honor. I would take a bullet for anyone I love, including the men in my life.

    To blame self sacrificing heroism on societal constructed gender roles is just..well, it's stupid for lack of a better word.what is the point of this thread?
     
  3. calgirl

    calgirl Senior Member

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    Yes I am. Men aren't disposable, but if the title is going to go on the presumption that they are....then my hypothesis is that it is a consequence of how men are perpetrators, and women/children are bystanders.

    It's a generalization, and one I don't truly buy off on, but it also could be an explanation about why it is men that have to sacrifice themselves more.
     
  4. odonII

    odonII O

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    Take what off your list of e.g's:


    Or women cower under men while men are getting shot.

    ?
     
  5. Cherea

    Cherea Senior Member

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    There's a big difference between what the recommendation is for oxygen masks on planes in case of emergency (put it on yourself first, then help the person next to you); and putting an oxygen mask on somebody else knowing full well you're going to die.

    It's quite simply, not a realistic measure of civilization. As well it shouldn't be.
     
  6. odonII

    odonII O

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    For the record, this would be me in the event the ship I was on was sinking or a gun-man/woman was on the loose: :hide::leaving:

    (sorry ladies)
     
  7. autophobe2e

    autophobe2e Senior Member

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    your original contention was that it was "the order for sinking ships". it isn't, and has never been part of official maritime law. that's an urban legend popularised by the story of the titanic and rudyard kipling.

    do you have somewhere i could read about the official policy of firefighters being ordered to save women before men when faced with a choice? i'd be interested.
     
  8. David54

    David54 Member

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    Well, saying that it's obvious isn't the same as pointing out a rational reason for the value, now is it?
     
  9. David54

    David54 Member

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    Ahhh, yes. The modified use of the social contract. That's actually what I was fishing for. Society protects the weak. Since the need to increase our numbers is out the window in this modern age of 7 billion people, the reason that we still protect children is that we protect the weak.

    So now the question is, why do we protect women? The underlying logic is a quite disrespectful opinion that women cannot protect themselves.
     
  10. David54

    David54 Member

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    First bold - actually, that's exactly what the draft is. Society forcing someone to put their life at risk to protect others. The least you could do is respect their unwilling sacrifice.

    Second bold - So is it also stupid of me to blame society for teenage girls' body image and the extream behavior that this leads to in some of them? Their parents, peers, and mass society all tell them that they're only valuable if they're thin, and they internalize the message. Thing is, I'll bet that you agree with me on that one. If you wanna throw the stupid stick around, I'll say that it's stupid of you to hold the one opinion but call the other stupid. But I don't entirely think it's stupid, no. You've just never really considered the socialization process that boys and men face in a sympathetic light before, is my guess.

    I made the point of the thread very clear in the last paragraph of the OP. Read it again.
     
  11. Meliai

    Meliai Banned

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    The draft hasn't happened since the Vietnam War and it isn't applicable anymore because women are able to fight in combat now.

    Sorry, I was cranky when I called it stupid. I still don't really get the point of this thread but I could have came up with something better than "stupid," I suppose.

    tbh, I don't really buy into that crap about women being taught that they're valuable only if they're thin. Thin is only valued in the fashion world. Models are stick thin because they're meant to be mannequins. Curves detract from clothing; it is meant to look as if the clothing is simply hanging on a frame. Just fyi. I don't think a lot of people realize that and they end up taking the fashion world too seriously. Television, movies, and the fashion world don't have much to do with real life. In real life, I generally see health and curves celebrated moreso than being stick thin. I was really thin growing up and no one ever celebrated my body or told me I had a beautiful, sexy body. I didn't get that until I filled out a bit. If young girls internalize what they see in fashion magazines I would blame it on the parents more than anything. Parents should teach their children that being healthy, happy, smart, and confident is more attractive than being skinny.

    I think that generally applies to most things in life. You can only blame society so much before taking personal responsibility for your life and the life of your family.

    If you want to use your wife as a shield or if you want to cower under a chair without regard to her safety, so be it. You have that option. I don't think you're going to convince anyone here that a man who chooses otherwise is wrong.
     
  12. David54

    David54 Member

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    First bold - any "normal" person would cower. On that we're agreed. So is it coincidence that the three people who didn't cower were all men? I think not.

    Second bold - Perhaps the women do suffer form survivor's guilt. Sucks for them. Better than being dead. No, I don't think that those men were disposable. But evidently they did.

    Third bold - Believe it or not, that was a concious choice. I was about to edit the "he" to a "s/he," but then I remembered that the vast majority of firefighters are men, just like the vast majority of people who do all of the most dangerous jobs. It's another example of male disposability and I thought it was fitting. So I exercised my poetic license.

    aside : I always think it's so funny when people say "I'm not going to talk about this" as a way of talking about it. I do it too sometimes, but I still think it's kinda funny.

    Fourth bold - "It is our collective societal view of men that accelerates their "roles" in society because we all chose to allow these images to survive."

    That's my point! Why are you arguing with me?

    I thought you said that all of my other examples are voluntary. How in the hell is the draft voluntary? I would propose rectifying the inequality of the situation by expanding the draft to include women. I mean obviously I'd rather not have a draft at all. But if some poor kids have to be forced to go off and fight against their will, might as well be fair about how we pick them. Quite a bit of successful advocacy has taken place to allow women into combat if they want to be there, and I'm all for equality in that sense. But where is the advocacy for equality in the draft?

    Vietnam veterans are irrelavant? I couldn't think of a more brazen example of the mindset of male disposability. These people didn't make a choice. They were drafted. Society made the choice for them, which is my point! They don't exist in the past. Half of the homeless population are Vietnam vets, right now!! You're right, society could take care of these poor, tortured souls. But we don't! What does this tell you? Society just doesn't give a fuck about them, which is my point.

    Last bold - People often confuse concern for men with resentment towards women. Well I won't deny that I'm resentful towards society in general. I don't like the situation that I've been put in. But I don't think that women are any more responsible than men for creating or perpetuating these gender roles, and I don't think that I've said anything to imply that I do. You're projecting. I think if you take a moment to think about it, you'll realize that there is a direct parallel here to how feminists are called "man-haters."
     
  13. David54

    David54 Member

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    Apology accepted. We can all be snappy sometimes.

    So you don't believe in internalized gender roles at all? Well, the consensus of the sociology community disagrees with you. I mean, that's all that I can say about that. You're just wrong. This is not the thread, maybe not even the forum, to teach you about such basic sociological principals. But I can recomend some reading, if you're interested?

    I do have to admire your consistancy. At least you're not applying a double standard. Many people recognize that internalized gender roles are an issue for women, but refuse to apply that priniciple to men.

    The draft certainly is still applicable! I filled out my draft card. Every boy has to under penalty of the law. When there's another draft, it's only young men who are going to be forced to take a bullet and/or be qsychologically traumatized for their country. Do you think that the time to address that is after the next draft starts? Ridiculous.

    Yes, now women can fight in combat if they want to. But that's not equality for all. It's equality for women. It's Animal Farm equality. Some of us are more equal than others.
     
  14. Meliai

    Meliai Banned

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    I didn't say internalized gender roles don't exist. I said that parents can do a lot to protect their children from internalizing gender roles and any other negative bullshit society has to offer.

    I have a question. You said in an above post you don't like the situation you've been put in. What do you mean by that? I know your wife works, you take care of your child. Are you not happy with that arrangement?
     
  15. eggsprog

    eggsprog anti gang marriage HipForums Supporter

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    David54 - does your wife know that, if a gunman came bursting into a movie theatre, you'd take cover and leave your children to fend for themselves?

    how do you know that there weren't just as many women who threw themselves in front of their boyfriends or husbands who just didn't end up getting shot?

    this whole idea of men being victimized and disenfranchised because they're men is absolutely ridiculous. there are probably a few minor examples (such as a lack of changing facilities in some men's washrooms), but for the most part it seems to me like you're just looking for an excuse to play victim.
     
  16. Aerianne

    Aerianne Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    I wonder if you might feel any differently if you were raising a daughter instead of another male.
     
  17. David54

    David54 Member

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    I don't really see how that's relevant. Or rather it's true, and somewhat relevant, but I don't see how it speaks against my point. Parents are a huge part of the socialization process (although it turns out not as big as once was thought). I don't see how that negates anything that I said.

    I'm beginning to like you more and more. You ask the most insiteful questions! That's a really big question with lots of little answers, that deserves its own thread. I'll try to summarize briefly.

    I've always been a bit of a girly man. I was a really scrawny kid. I have high emotional intelligence. I enjoy taking care of other people, not in the provider sense but in the cooking and massaging and listening good sense. But I'm also aggressive, opinionated, and stubborn. I'm open minded, but in a challenging sort of way.

    My life hasn't been easy. I've come to the place where I am through stubbornness. But it's been an uphill battle. My wife is a wonderful person and I'm lucky to have her. But I really am lucky to have her. There aren't many women out there who would accept a swapped gender role. I've been dumped enough times because I don't make enough money to know that for sure. But how long will my luck last? What if she divorces me? Half of all marriages end in divorce, so it's certainly not unthinkable. I live with the constant knowledge that if it came down to it, she could take my children away and I couldn't do a thing about it.

    And the struggle, just to become the person that was worthy of the life I have! I didn't start off my adult life the way that I am now. I was bullied as a child, a lot. I was beaten regularly until I learned to fight back. But fighting didn't come naturally to me. It was socialized into me. It wasn't until 11th grade that I started fighting back. So yeah, a decade of being beaten at least once a weak will build up some resentment. But not just towards the bullies, towards the school, towards the police, who stood by and did nothing. Towards society.

    The bullying was a socialization process. I can recomend some reading on that subject too if you'd like. That and other socialization forces burried my natural emotional intelligence deap down. It took me years to reconstruct my mind into the person that I am today, and it was not an easy road. It's not something that very many people ever do.

    So yeah, I've built a life that stands as an example of what actual equality can look like, for now. But I had to fight for it, and it can be taken away without my consent. It's always a fight to step outside of the roles that society has prepared for you.

    I don't want to leave you with the impression that I'm full of resentment. That's a word that Faelix used, and my intent was to mirror the word back poetically. I'm a very happy person and I love my life. I've had my trials, that I've told you a lot about. But I've also been very priviledged. Resentment isn't really the right word. I just think that I've faced a set of problems that a lot of other men have also faced. A lot of people think that these problems don't even exist, or that they're trivial, or that men shouldn't talk about our problems in the first place. A lot of those people are men. I just think that I'm right, and until someone can prove me wrong, I'll continue to raise awareness of these issues, because I think that they're important.
     
  18. David54

    David54 Member

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    The answer = no. Most of my beliefs in this regard were formed well before I knew the sex of my child.
     
  19. odonII

    odonII O

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    I asked about his wife.

    I presume he would be heading for the EXIT sign.

    I think Dave is ignoring female relations/roles/positions etc for the last 250 years or so.
     
  20. Aerianne

    Aerianne Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    I just asked because when you have girls you want to think someone would cover them in a hail of bullets; but when you have boys you tend to think why should my son sacrifice himself for a woman - what makes her more special?

    When you have some of each you are better able to feel both sides.
     

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