Likely being 'kicked out' of graduate program- help.

Discussion in 'Higher Ed' started by etkearne, Oct 31, 2011.

  1. etkearne

    etkearne Resident Pharmacologist

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    Hi.

    There is another post in here that dealt with the constant stress of graduate school. To put it shortly, I am in a very difficult graduate program in Theoretical Mathematics in a tough University. I also (as you may know from other posts on these forums) suffer from a treatment-resistant form of Bipolar Disorder sometimes called Schizoaffective Disorder. It is a mixture of mood symptoms and schizophrenic symptoms. It is hellish to live with to put it bluntly.

    In the 12 years I have suffered with this disorder, I have found that the only way to truly escape the horrifying symptoms of the disorder is to take the psychiatric medication that has so bad of a reputation (for good reason). The main drug that impacts my thinking and cognition is the antipsychotic Zyprexa (Olanzapine). Unfortunately, I have tried every other antipsychotic on the market (except the old ones like Thorazine which are even worse...), and none of them are 'strong' enough to suppress my severe symptoms (agitation, threatening auditory hallucinations, delusions, paranoia, suicidal depression, etc.). So, I am 'stuck' with this medicine and please note that if you respond to this post, do not try to convince me to go off of this med or switch. I have made the decision to stay on it based on 12 years of real facts and trial and error. Thank You.

    The side effects stem from the pharmacology of the drug. It primarily is a Dopamine Receptor antagonist. That translates into apathy, lack of motivation, and boredom. It also is a Histamine antagonist. That translates into intense sedation to the point where I NEED to sleep at least 11 hours per night, yet I still feel like the 'walking dead' the next day. Thirdly, it is an Acetylcholine antagonist, which leads to the worst side effects of all: "Cognitive Blunting". That means that it essentially destroys your short term and long term memory AND that you can't focus on a damn thing AND that you feel 'stoned' (not in a good way) all day. Other acetylcholine antagonists include Benadryl, Atropine, Datura, etc. We all know the nasty effects of those drugs at high doses.

    So I am trying to do (arguably) one of the hardest subjects known to man at a graduate level while suffering from this disabling medication and illness. So my grades have been awful. In my worst class, I have a 20% average. However, I study 50 hours a week (literally), which is more than most of my classmates (who have B's). My professor informed me, in private, today that they are going to let me go at the end of the Semester because of my performance. They know that it is due to the medicine, but they can't give me grades unless I meet their expectations. No exceptions. So I have been essentially going from crying to being pissed off during the last three hours. I started to cry right in front of the professor which was embarrassing.

    I just can't stand that life is so unfair. They taught me as a child that no matter what the circumstances, if you try your hardest, you can succeed at ANYTHING. I was told this hundreds of times. So it is engrained in my mind. And now that my dreams are shattered, I don't know what to even think.

    My initial plan, last year, was to get my Ph.D. and be a tenure-track professor in Mathematics. That dream was shattered and I am still not recovered from it. So I 'stepped down' to wanting to get my Master's in Mathematics to teach college but not be tenured. Now THAT dream is shattered as well.

    I can only take SO much disappointment in my life. It just pisses me off that people still say "You can achieve anything if you try your hardest." Well it ain't fucking true! Just look at me! So FUCK all of the teachers in my life that have told me that bullshit. And FUCK society for perpetuating that myth and putting people like me through such horrible situations.

    I don't even know what I am going to do now. I "only" have a Bachelor's in Mathematics (even though 20 years ago, you'd be guaranteed a good job with that...) so my career options are next to nothing. I can teach high school which means being a 'babysitter' 85% of the time, getting crappy pay, and teaching BORING math subjects like algebra and trigonometry for the next 50 years. I CAN'T work for the government because all of the math jobs require getting a security clearance. And since I have been hospitalized for mental illness, and that I currently still HAVE the mental illness, AND that I have tried just about every drug on the planet, I am automatically disqualified. PLUS, I wouldn't WANT to work for something so vile and criminal as the US government. I think the government is one of the most corrupt, evil institutions known to man (at least our current government).

    So, other than that, there really aren't any good careers for having a BS in Math. So I am screwed. What should I do, folks? I don't have any friends in real life because my classmates think I am 'stupid' so they don't talk to me, so you guys on HipForums are the closest thing I currently have to 'friends.'

    MUCH THANKS
     
  2. Tyrsonswood

    Tyrsonswood Senior Moment Lifetime Supporter

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    I'm new around here, so technically not a friend but I do know what being shot down at every turn means...... Been there, still am.

    I can tell your chosen career plans were very important to you, still are very important, but seem insurmountable at this point. While this isn't "help" my question is...... Do you have anything else in your life that you could do that's not so affected by your illness?

    Think outside the box before answering. Often time this "thing" is right in front of us and we still can't see it.
     
  3. etkearne

    etkearne Resident Pharmacologist

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    Hi. I hope you will consider me a friend. I see you are middle-aged, so that is good. You have lots of life experience to share.

    Could you elaborate on what you mean by the 'things' you mention? As for what areas of life my illness impacts, it is broad, but the most severe impacts are exclusively in tasks that require supreme intelligence. However, that is what I have been good at my whole life (until I became sick). I was the Number One student from 1st grade to Senior Year (although I didn't get Valedictorian because I transferred high schools Junior Year and they wanted someone who was there all four years...)

    Thank you for taking time to read my post.
     
  4. Fairlight

    Fairlight Banned

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    Hi Etkearne.I am also on Zyprexa so I know it's debilitating effects.I also suffer from schizo-type disorder.I really feel for you.I had to drop out of school because of my illness - I was doing a degree in literature and cultural studies - after studying for four years.There is probably not much anyone can say to cheer you up right now,except to say that I've been there,and that although it feels like the end of the world right now - life goes on.You may have to spend some time re-evaluating your priorities and what you really value in life, and believe that somewhere your self-evidently displayed skills and talents will be appreciated and rewarded.Respect.
     
  5. etkearne

    etkearne Resident Pharmacologist

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    How did you 'come to terms' with your tragic loss? I still am bitter to the core about losing my opportunity to get my Ph.D. and be a tenured professor. And that dream was shattered over a year and a half ago. I think it will take many more years to even get over THAT.

    I don't even know where to begin in trying to come to terms with THIS loss. I have been in psychotherapy for 8 years now (with 5 different therapists) and I still struggle every moment of every day with these losses in my life. How do I come to terms with it?

    It just bothers me so much because I know that, behind the medication and mental illness, I am extremely intelligent. I was almost Valedictorian at my High School and for the two and a half years of college where I "only" had depression (before my psychoses set in), I was the top student in all of my classes and was taking senior-year-level math courses as a Freshman. So to go from that to what I have now is utterly devastating. And I have NO idea how I will ever recover from it.

    The bitterness runs so deep in my psyche that it is impossible to even convey in words here.
     
  6. Tyrsonswood

    Tyrsonswood Senior Moment Lifetime Supporter

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    "Things" such as.... art, music, writing....... What do you do when not studying, something you enjoy that doesn't take lots of effort, even on your worst days. I'm not saying you just drop math and you will become a famous painter, although that could happen, but you may have to open yourself up to other options. This would be the first step in exploring those options.


    Oh, and don't curse me with the "middle aged" tag....... If I have to go through another 50+ years of this....... :eek: *mumbles incoherently*

    Just kidding, but I am 54 going on 84, physically.......
     
  7. etkearne

    etkearne Resident Pharmacologist

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    I actually AM a musician, although I am not paid for it. I have played the electric bass for 14 years and am highly skilled in progressive rock as well as jazz. I am currently in a band that I co-founded called "The Lancaster Jazz Project" which has me on bass, a drummer, and a guitarist.

    We play traditional acoustic jazz (stuff like Miles Davis from the 1960s and Bill Evans) using electric instruments. I play a fretless electric bass (which a picture of is in my Image Basket) and the guitarist uses a Fender Telecaster. So we have an interesting sound: Traditional but unique due to the electric instruments.

    We play live occasionally, especially at the Harrisburg Hilton Hotel, which had live jazz all summer. But we never got paid and the jazz scene doesn't particularly pay well.

    I don't really see how I could make a 'career' out of something like that though. I would not have a steady income and financial worries would be in my head constantly. And while I am good at bass, I am not talented to be worthy of getting paid to play. Most jazz musicians who get paid these days graduated from Music Departments at major universities, so the few reliable gigs out there go to those folks. People like me are just considered 'amateurs'.

    In fact, it is a lot like the Math field. Unless you are extremely talented and gifted, you will never amount to anything. That is my problem. I am good at a ton of things and have a wide slew of interests, but I am not EXCEPTIONALLY great at any one thing. And in our modern world, success only comes to the exceptionally gifted people it seems. The rest of us live resentful, bitter lives, slaving away at jobs we hate barely making enough money to afford even simple luxuries.
     
  8. eggsprog

    eggsprog anti gang marriage HipForums Supporter

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    I can't really add anything useful except to say that I know how you feel. My anxiety and depression forced me to drop out of university and I haven't been able to go back, despite repeated attempts at taking courses to 'ease' myself back in. I always end up not finishing them and ending up in a worse (mental) place than I began.

    I just started Seroquel a few weeks ago because I've given up on fighting this without medication, and the side effects really suck. Now instead of missing work because I'm anxious, I miss work because I'm tired and dizzy and 'out of it' due to my medication.

    I guess that my best advice to you is to try and keep your head up and stay positive... which sounds almost as cliché as the whole 'work hard and you can achieve anything' bullshit... but that's all I have right now.

    If you ever want to chat about anything, feel free to send me a PM.

    Good luck getting through this, hopefully you'll look back on it in 5 or 10 years from a different place and just see it as a minor roadblock in your life.

    edit - Forgot to add that I was the same as you all through high school and elementary school - great marks without trying, top of my class, put into the 'gifted' program. I always wonder if maybe being labelled as gifted actually contributed to my anxiety about school (or maybe 'gifted' people are just more likely to be mentally ill).
     
  9. Tyrsonswood

    Tyrsonswood Senior Moment Lifetime Supporter

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    Yeah, music is a tough one to break into as a $$$ maker. I'm a guitarist, writer and I used to build guitars. I actually taught guitar building for awhile. Arthritis keeps me sidelined these days and the depression that goes along with losing some of these abilities. This doesn't mean I'm done with it.... just means I haven't thought far enough outside the box yet.

    For you as a musician/bass player, it doesn't mean you need to be in a famous band getting paid for gigging, although that would be ideal for some people. There's teaching, recording engineer, studio musician etc. There are lots of other avenues to use your given talents... You have ears unlike the majority of people and a soul to match, these are gifts. No body is asking for a snap decision out of you but dwell on some other possibilities for awhile.
     
  10. Tyrsonswood

    Tyrsonswood Senior Moment Lifetime Supporter

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    ^^^THIS^^^
    This is a known fact, not a nice fact but it's true.
     
  11. Strawberry_Fields_Fo

    Strawberry_Fields_Fo RN

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    What about teaching at a community college? Their requirements for teaching positions are generally not as strict, and they have a very high (73%) job satisfaction rate. You work with a wide age range, but don't have to babysit anyone since the students have a vested interest in being there. Depending on the institution, you may find you have more freedom in your curriculum than at a 4 year university.

    Also, you stated you go to a very prestigious university, and I don't know how many courses if any you've completed so far, but is there any way you could (maybe not soon, since you probably need some time to cool off) one day transfer to a less-prestigious program?

    I'm about to graduate a nursing program in May, and it hasn't been a straight and narrow path for me either. I don't have a severe mental illness of what you described, but I have suffered with recurrant bouts of pretty severe depression. I started out as a nursing major in my bachelors when I was 18. When my second year started, I was overwhelmed and couldn't handle the stress, even 2 weeks into it. After 3 weeks in my second year, I had a medical crisis and had to take the semester off, and ended up changing majors. I graduated, couldn't find a job/didn't know what i was doing with my life, and ended up going back to nursing school, nervous as hell, even though I knew I was meant to do it. I barely made it through my first semester, and during my second semester I couldn't hold myself together. I was really depressed and had terrible anxiety, and I ended up throwing up in a patient's room! Talk about embarassing. I was able to take a leave of absense and came back after taking another semester off, and when I came back I was finally able to do what I needed to do, and feel much better about it.

    My point is, your mental illness may be a disability, but sometimes the program itself is a big contributor to the problem. I could've graduated with a bachelor's in nursing at a well-known, well respected university, and now I'm going for just a diploma at an institution that has a good reputation in my city, but isn't gonna be well-known outside of that. Despite that, I'm much happier here than I was at the other place, and I feel like I'm in a MUCH more supportive environment.

    One more thing...My father is a physics professor at a private university. He has chronic depression and may also have mild, undiagnosed aspergers. He enjoys teaching, or he did at one point, but the university environment really isn't all it's cracked up to be. He doesn't have a lot of friends, almost none in the city he lives in, and he's been passed over for tenure before just because he's not really a people person and doesn't really follow university politics. He has tenure now, and at one point was made chairman of the physics department by default, but the dean soon replaced him with his much-younger colleague who is a total asshole, and now he and the dean are trying to elbow him into retirement which may actually happen this summer, even though the reason his teaching has suffered this semester is because his mother (the last of his family outside of me and my sister) died this last Aug.

    I'm not saying you should give up, or that it's not worth it. I'm just saying that life never works out the way we expect (tho I'm sure you already know that), but somehow, it DOES work out. And I agree with you--fuck whoever says you can be who you want. I was a pre-med major for one semester...after just 1 semester of intro chemistry, I had full-blown acne and had lost 10 lbs from the stress of studying about 50 hrs a week and still got a bad grade. I will never be a doctor, no matter how much I study, but I've come to terms with it because now in hindsight I realize that nursing is much more up my alley.

    Hang in there, this too shall pass.

    -Kate
     
  12. etkearne

    etkearne Resident Pharmacologist

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    Thank you for your kind words Kate. But the problem of my medication side-effects won't go away and although the University of Delaware's Math program is pretty prestigious, I would not want to go to another University, because I would have to move far from where my family is. Right now, I live 40 minutes from my (very, very supportive) parents and I rely on their love all of the time. I don't think it would be good for me to relocate. If my illness flared up, I would have no support system at all.

    Again, though, for your case, it seems like you have come to terms with not reaching your dreams of being a doctor. How did you do it? I mean, I can't even begin to shave away at the deep resentment, guilt, and disgust I have over not reaching my dreams. And, THAT is WITH seeing a psychotherapist EVERY week. How do you do it? How do you go through life without feeling like a failure (not to say you are, but I am sure you thought that about yourself when you switched from Pre-Med to Nursing). I know that I am not a failure. I know you aren't a failure. BUT, the world looking on to us would consider us to be failures. We failed to meet our dreams. Thus, the cruel world considers people like us as subordinate to the people who succeeded.

    Thank you again for your help. Please reply when you can.
     
  13. eggsprog

    eggsprog anti gang marriage HipForums Supporter

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    Is there any way for you to continue the program and cut down on your hours at work? Or to reduce your course-load even more and take more time to finish the program?

    As for coming to terms with 'failing', I think you need to take a step back and look at this situation for what it really is - this isn't you failing, this is your school failing to make adequate accommodations for a disabled student. It sucks, and it isn't fair, but you aren't the one at fault in this situation.
     
  14. Sininabin

    Sininabin Member

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    no offense but it appears your mind is able to handle the path you choose. Like a athlete who realizes that practice won't get him to the NBA because he has cerebal palzy.

    i hope you find what you love and are able to do.

    I was fighting like hell to be an english major at at extremely top tier school but after time I saw my LD made my life miserable (my thing is really much more complicated but it ended at the same place) and now I'm going to graduate from a state school and go into a field I really like and doesn't conflict with my weakness.


    finding peace and happyness that's what matter, and that comes from the inside.

    god i know what it's like to be unhappy and just being happy that is all I could want, to stand on the beach at night in the fog, to kiss my gf, sit down and taste an apple, see a hummingbird sip from a rose, and make ends met and leave some nice art and good vibes behind me.

    why can't you go to school study jazz bass? if you really love it, in music hard work beats talent all the time, so much discipline to be a great musician which it seems you are. think 6 years you could have all the qualifications a jazz musician needs to make ends meet.
     
  15. etkearne

    etkearne Resident Pharmacologist

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    So here I am, another day later. I still don't feel like it is 'real.' I still can't believe that my dreams are broken. I still have no idea how to get over this.

    Everyone seems to be able to get over their life dreams being crushed so easy on this site. It is much harder for me for some reason. Without these dreams, I am nothing. I know you will say that I am not equal to those dreams, but I feel like it IS that case, so that doesn't help. I just don't know what to do.
     
  16. Tyrsonswood

    Tyrsonswood Senior Moment Lifetime Supporter

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    I can't speak for anyone else, but for me it's not so much that I have "gotten over" having dreams crushed, but it's an acceptance that those dreams are not going to work out as I had thought. Then begin looking for another dream/idea/concept that does fit..... Probably this is what the others have done also.

    I originally answered your post because I have experience with having dreams crushed, lots of experience....... and I'm still standing. Does this mean I'm happy, fulfilled, in control? No it means I'm still standing...... and willing to look at other options.

    You're not going to get over this in a day, no body can. If they did then what they lost wasn't really that important to them..... they just say it was for whatever reason.
     
  17. Strawberry_Fields_Fo

    Strawberry_Fields_Fo RN

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    Well, in my case, I wouldn't say my dreams were crushed, I just didn't fully understand what they were (tho this is in hindsight, mind you). I knew my vocation (I'm a big believer in vocations) had something to do with medicine. I'd wanted to be a doctor since I was 5. But as I got older and realized what being a doctor truly meant (80% science, 20% helping people) I realized I wouldn't be happy doing that. I've found nursing to be a much better fit, because there is a strong medical component, but you also get to have a real relationship with people, instead of walking in the room with a clipboard for 2 minutes and then leaving. Nursing is the science of caring; medicine is the science of being a pompous dick (not always though, haha).

    I think part of the "secret" to happiness is learning the art of adaptation. Sometimes, when dreams don't work out, or the unexpected happens, you just have to take a step back, re-evaluate yourself, your priorities, your values, and often you can find a way to retain who you really are even though you're having to take a new path.

    For right now, you need to be gentle with yourself. Beating yourself up over it will only prolong your suffering. It's ok to be pissed, I would be too. And I'd caution you not to use the phrase "get over it." You may never get over it. I think a more accurate goal is to be at peace with it. That may not come for a while; could be weeks, could be years. I struggled for 4 years before I finally accepted nursing as my calling. I know you already know what you want to do with your life, at least until this happened, but I'd encourage you to read "What Should I Do With My Life?" by Po Bronson. It's basically a series of vignettes of the author's interviews of dozens of people on how they got to were they are today. It helped remind me I wasn't alone in the struggle.

    Hope that helped.
     
  18. Mr.Writer

    Mr.Writer Senior Member

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    That has got to be one of the worst synergistic side effects profile of any medication I've heard of :(

    I think over time you will see that despite your protestant work ethic/etc or personal mythos of potential, that this one statement captures why this venture may have been doomed from the beginning.

    Think that they told you wrong. Think that dreams are shattered every day. You aimed so high, for someone bogged down so low with these things. Perfectly healthy and intelligent people couldn't get through your program and your worldview is destroyed when YOU can't? You have to understand your childhood teachings as an adult now. You can't do anything. No one can. There is not one person who has ever or will ever live that can do everything they put their mind to. It is part of the human condition to want certain things from oneself that are undeliverable.

    I felt this same disgust and hatred for everyone in my life when I had to drop out of my undergraduate due to my anxiety / depression / irritable bowel syndrome. I dropped out for 2 years. It took 2 years and positive psychedelic experiences (LSD) to foster a worldview within me that could accommodate my initial promise in life, my following failure, and a hope for the future. It's always going to be hard man. The past and present are real and tangible, their weights and failures tower in our minds, and the future is only an idea, just another promise, an eternal "maybe someday". So the scales are tilted towards the crap you've already gone through and know.

    Time heals all wounds. You are in the second day of the pain, it's still fresh and throbbing. Maybe by the second year it will be a dull memory of an ache, overshadowed by your new goals :)

    But you know logically that you are not the things you set yourself to do. Those are just things you do. Those are not things you be. Big difference, and one I see conflated all the time in unhappy people who push themselves way too hard, because they confuse "success" with happiness. You will find all sorts of new things to do, don't worry. That part is easy, you have loads of time to do all kinds of wonderful and inane crap in this life ;)

    While I am not religious, and I don't think you are, this passage by Gibran has always given me some relief when I read it in hard times.

    :grouphug: hang in there and remember life is so, so, so much bigger and grander and more amazing even than your most illustrious and heartfelt dreams right now. You will see!
     
  19. RooRshack

    RooRshack On Sabbatical

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    I'll read more in depth later.

    Maybe take some other classes, see what you're good at?

    Maybe I'm not understanding, but from what you said about your meds, couldn't you take benadryl and smoke a bowl, and have the same thing, only with positive effects as opposed to negative?
     
  20. lunarverse

    lunarverse The Living End

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    That line has always seemed to me to be something motivational to have children and young people WANT to create dreams for themselves. Everyone knows you'll never accomplish 100% of everything you set out to do in life. But, if you walked around always thinking, "what's the point, I probably won't accomplish it," then you'd never end up trying for anything. It isn't realistic to think that you'll have, get, or do everything you want in life. Failure is a fact of life. You CAN achieve anything you set out to do, but that doesn't mean you always will. Keep dreaming though man, that's what life is all about.
     

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