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All you people who believe in life after death...


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#1 walsh

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Posted July 02 2011 - 04:33 AM

When the body dies, what is it that persists after death? When you say you go to heaven after you die, what is it that goes to heaven?
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#2 lovelyxmalia

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Posted July 02 2011 - 04:35 AM

I'm not quite sure what I believe in, but I do believe the soul of a human being travels on...that's why we have paranormal happenings in the world and that's why some people vividly remember their past lives.

So I think its the soul that goes on for eternity...or until its purpose is served

#3 walsh

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Posted July 02 2011 - 07:01 AM

What is the soul? Is it everything in the body minus the physiological body which has died? Just the memories? Reasoning capacity? How can a living person know what is the soul and what isn't?
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#4 mckarkies

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Posted July 02 2011 - 07:11 AM

I personally feel like the soul is the intuitive side of a being to understand it even exists. The soul is the natural being of a person before the world we are in molds it into a being in human form. I believe since energy, matter cannot be "destroyed" that our souls move in from our empty vessel of a body to another state in which our soul's energy can recognize it's existence once again.
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#5 YoMama

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Posted July 02 2011 - 07:13 AM

IMHO the spirit is the energy of our life the current you may not be able to see it but it is there. Kind of like radio waves
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#6 mckarkies

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Posted July 02 2011 - 07:15 AM

It's like how when people take hallucinogenics and say they feel the mood of everyone in the room and of the room itself. That energy is picked up all the time no matter what, but on hallucinogenics it is intensified.
"But I know I'm just the weather, against your window, as you sleep through a winter's dream."

#7 KeithBC

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Posted July 02 2011 - 07:40 AM

When the body dies, what is it that persists after death? When you say you go to heaven after you die, what is it that goes to heaven?

What is it that persists during life? Nothing at all, yet we are demonstrably alive. So why shouldn't the same nothing at all survive death?

#8 walsh

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Posted July 02 2011 - 07:51 AM

What is it that persists during life? Nothing at all, yet we are demonstrably alive. So why shouldn't the same nothing at all survive death?


The body is alive, nothing demonstrably more. If that nothing survives death, then the thing that survives is nothing. Make sense? It doesn't to me...
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#9 KeithBC

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Posted July 02 2011 - 06:45 PM

The body is alive, nothing demonstrably more.

Yes, the body is alive, but that wasn't what I asked. I asked what persists. Cells die and are replaced. Molecules get broken down into metabolites and excreted, replaced by newly-synthesized replacements. Nothing persists.

#10 Billyx1120

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Posted July 02 2011 - 07:23 PM

When the body dies, what is it that persists after death? When you say you go to heaven after you die, what is it that goes to heaven?


Heaven? - well thats one way of putting it - For me - It's another dimension
'This' life is only one charter of an Never Ending story
The body is only a vehicle in witch the Soul and Spirits operate - it decays only when the two move on.
Where they go to is ... well I guess you just have to be there :)

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#11 Voice of Truth

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Posted July 02 2011 - 09:45 PM

I have no clue what happens after death. But I do know that there is something else and my wife is there now. When I close my eyes before going to sleep, I can sense her near me.

Perhaps I'm just an old man that really misses his wife. But where ever she is, I know she is waiting for me. Although I'm not at all suicidal, I'm looking forward to seeing her again and holding her in my arms. It's our love that tells me there is an after life and nothing can convince me otherwise.
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#12 walsh

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Posted July 02 2011 - 10:19 PM

Yes, the body is alive, but that wasn't what I asked. I asked what persists. Cells die and are replaced. Molecules get broken down into metabolites and excreted, replaced by newly-synthesized replacements. Nothing persists.


Well, we have continuity of thought. Our cells seem to have a memory of sorts - our hands get tougher if we use them a lot, brain gets stronger the more it is used, and our telomeres get shorter until we die. But technically you're right, nothing stays alive during our "lifetime".

Heaven? - well thats one way of putting it - For me - It's another dimension
'This' life is only one charter of an Never Ending story
The body is only a vehicle in witch the Soul and Spirits operate - it decays only when the two move on.
Where they go to is ... well I guess you just have to be there


Let's say you die and go to heaven. Your body is dead. Your brain cells which give rise to your thoughts, the same thoughts which are now claiming there is a heaven to which you are going to go, are also dead and gone. What is this "soul" - what does it consist of? All your behavior and conditioning is acquired since birth, your likes and dislikes, friends and loved ones, so do you end up with a clean slate like you did when you were born or do you retain all that? Because once you eliminate all that I can't see there being anything left to amount to a soul.
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#13 KeithBC

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Posted July 03 2011 - 05:53 PM

Well, we have continuity of thought.

Precisely.

Except when we don't of course. We lose some continuity every night when we sleep. We might lose some if we get a concussion and have amnesia. We lose some (along with more amnesia) when we die.

But that "continuity" (more-or-less) of thought is all we have when we are alive. It is not a thing, but a process. It is what makes us think that we are a person while we are alive. For many of us who believe in life after death, it is what continues after death.

#14 walsh

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Posted July 03 2011 - 07:17 PM

Precisely.

Except when we don't of course. We lose some continuity every night when we sleep. We might lose some if we get a concussion and have amnesia. We lose some (along with more amnesia) when we die.

But that "continuity" (more-or-less) of thought is all we have when we are alive. It is not a thing, but a process. It is what makes us think that we are a person while we are alive. For many of us who believe in life after death, it is what continues after death.


How does that work? When the cells creating that process are destroyed, it doesn't seem sensible to infer the process would continue.
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#15 Moving_cloud

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Posted July 04 2011 - 01:43 AM

What is the soul? Is it everything in the body minus the physiological body which has died? Just the memories? Reasoning capacity? How can a living person know what is the soul and what isn't?

I look on the body as kinda 'field of experience' which is situated within the larger realm of one's soul, and of soul groups; i imagine the field is docked to the point of greatest potential of growth in consciousness, both collectively and individually. Yet what persists ?

The claim to persist seems to include the concept of time. Perhaps, beyond those time fields, there is no such thing as persistance, as time only exists as limitation, or as possibility.

Just a thought.

#16 The Imaginary Being

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Posted July 04 2011 - 01:45 AM

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#17 KeithBC

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Posted July 04 2011 - 10:21 AM

How does that work? When the cells creating that process are destroyed, it doesn't seem sensible to infer the process would continue.

It doesn't seem sensible if you assume that the process is confined to those cells and is dependent upon them. But there is no evidence that that is an accurate assumption.

Granted, there is no evidence that it isn't, and a scientist would have to conclude as you do. But this isn't a science forum on which you are asking the question.

#18 orison319

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Posted July 04 2011 - 10:52 AM

if you was standing on the the surface of Jupiter and looked back at earth .. What would it matter?.. you cant even see that far with human eye site. Just as you cant see that far into heaven with Human eyes..

Living or Dead It does not matter.. the soul is smaller than a speck of dust, yet as large as the Universe itself..


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#19 dark suger

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Posted July 04 2011 - 10:57 AM

Without being buried in a pyramid there is no after life

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#20 walsh

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Posted July 04 2011 - 04:15 PM

It doesn't seem sensible if you assume that the process is confined to those cells and is dependent upon them. But there is no evidence that that is an accurate assumption.

Granted, there is no evidence that it isn't, and a scientist would have to conclude as you do. But this isn't a science forum on which you are asking the question.


I'm not asking for evidence, rather what reason do you infer a soul in the first place? It seems rather unusual to assume a nebulous field of consciousness where none is visible nor evident.
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#21 KeithBC

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Posted July 04 2011 - 08:58 PM

I'm not asking for evidence, rather what reason do you infer a soul in the first place?

But that was my original point: Some of us who believe in life after death do not believe in a soul.

#22 walsh

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Posted July 07 2011 - 07:05 PM

But that was my original point: Some of us who believe in life after death do not believe in a soul.


If something lives on after death, what else could that something be other than what we refer to as a soul?
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#23 KeithBC

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Posted July 07 2011 - 08:42 PM

If something lives on after death, what else could that something be other than what we refer to as a soul?

I didn't say that something lives on after death. That's your interpretation based on your own beliefs. I don't believe that.

What is it that provides continuity from one moment to the next during life? It isn't anything physical, like cells or molecules, because we have already established that they are ephemeral.

Those who believe in souls will call it the soul, but giving it a name only reinforces the illusion that there is something. Take away the name, and you cannot point to anything to which the word soul refers. Because there isn't anything.

So if there is nothing providing continuity during life, but we experience it anyway, why should it be a problem if there is continuity after death? There is no need to use the word "soul".

The word "soul" (or any synonym, like "something that lives on after death") is as insubstantial as the "it" in the sentence "It is raining". It doesn't refer to anything.

Not believing in a soul doesn't prevent one from believing in life after death any more than it prevents one from believing in life before death.

#24 walsh

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Posted July 07 2011 - 09:12 PM

What you say about souls is not far from my own opinion as well, although I don't really have a problem with the use of the word to cover a "non-something". The problem I have is that our experiencing continuity is a process based upon ephemeral existence. After all, isn't it the memory that provides continuity? I experience one event and store that experience in my memory, then a second event which goes next to it with a space between them which we call time. Unless that continues after death, I don't see a possibility for the continuation of life.
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#25 ratnesh dubey

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Posted July 07 2011 - 09:55 PM

i think after death new life is begine.

#26 chrisdotdo

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Posted July 08 2011 - 02:44 AM

When the body dies, what is it that persists after death?

"Awareness." You are always "aware," even in your sleep. You may not be conscious of things and situations at times, but you are always "aware," regardless. "Awareness" and being conscious are two different concepts. One is your essence; the other pertains to your mental processes. In the end, our "awareness" will get erased when we merge with God. The God Mode will instantly switch on. And then, one is all alone in an Infinite Void. It's the reason why God is one and full of love.

#27 KeithBC

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Posted July 08 2011 - 12:22 PM

What you say about souls is not far from my own opinion as well, although I don't really have a problem with the use of the word to cover a "non-something". The problem I have is that our experiencing continuity is a process based upon ephemeral existence. After all, isn't it the memory that provides continuity? I experience one event and store that experience in my memory, then a second event which goes next to it with a space between them which we call time. Unless that continues after death, I don't see a possibility for the continuation of life.

Does that mean that a person with amnesia is dead?

If your world view is such that you associate life and consciousness with the physical processes, then your conclusion is inevitable. It's just not the only world view.

Another is that consciousness is caused by the accumulated chain of cause and effect. The association of effects with their causes gives the appearance of continuity. And since effects can occur after the death of the perpetrator of the cause, there is no problem extending continuity over death.

#28 chrisdotdo

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Posted July 08 2011 - 12:49 PM

IMHO the spirit is the energy of our life the current you may not be able to see it but it is there. Kind of like radio waves

According to dictionary dot com, energy is "the capacity for vigorous activity," and "an adequate or abundant amount of such power." Therefore, energy is measurable. On the other hand, the reality that moves us is none of the above. It is "no-thing." It's not even light, but yet, it is, just is. It's certainly not a spirit. It's not alcohol, gas, or some ephemeral thing. To experience it at its subtle best, one must "awaken." It's the only way to dispel all doubts. I respect, however, your belief system.

#29 walsh

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Posted July 08 2011 - 03:26 PM

Does that mean that a person with amnesia is dead?


I'm not sure how that follows from what I said. I didn't mean to say the memory is the life in the body, ignoring the entire physiology.

If your world view is such that you associate life and consciousness with the physical processes, then your conclusion is inevitable. It's just not the only world view.

Another is that consciousness is caused by the accumulated chain of cause and effect. The association of effects with their causes gives the appearance of continuity. And since effects can occur after the death of the perpetrator of the cause, there is no problem extending continuity over death.


I had trouble understanding this part, maybe because I misunderstood what you meant by 'continuity'. What would be the cause you are talking about in this case?
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#30 KeithBC

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Posted July 08 2011 - 03:44 PM

What would be the cause you are talking about in this case?

Everything you do is a cause for some effect. No act is without consequences.

People do things while alive whose effects only ripen after they die. Young people experience effects whose causes were set up before they were conceived. Pretty much everything we experience is an effect created by a cause somewhere in the past.

The fact that causes and effects are linked in a perpetual web is the continuity I was referring to.