Possession, Exorcisms, and Rites

Discussion in 'Sanctuary' started by Ukr-Cdn, Nov 16, 2010.

  1. Ukr-Cdn

    Ukr-Cdn Striving towards holiness

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    I wanted to post a little bit about possessions and exorcisms, partially because they are a reality often scoffed at, and also because there is a genuine (and not so genuine) intrest in the Rite of Exorcism in Hollywood especially.

    Possessions are real. Luckily, I have never experienced one, nor do I think that anyone I know has experienced one (praise God!). A local Catholic newspaper recently ran an article about the US Catholic Bishops' goal to train more exorcists (the Rite is very rare in North America, but more common in Europe). It detailed the signs of an authentic possession.

    * Signs of demonic possession might include:
    * Speaking in a language the individual does not know.
    * Scratching, cutting, biting of the skin.
    * Profound display of strength.
    * Sleeplessness.
    * Lack of appetite.
    * Aversion to anything holy, such as mentioning the name of Jesus or Mary, or the act of praying.
    * Strong or violent reaction to holy water.

    http://wcr.ab.ca/WCRThisWeek/Stories/tabid/61/entryid/179/Default.aspx
    I think what it is important and vital to raise is that these are not merely mentally ill individuals. Some of these indicators are indicative of mental illness, but taken together show something completely different. Exorcisms in reality often last longer than one day, and are intended to cure a deep seated possession, and can often last months or years.

    Ultimately I brought this up because I have some quesions to those who belong to other Christian communities.

    1) What does your community teach regarding possession?

    And 2) Is there a type of exorcism rite?
     
  2. Lynnbrown

    Lynnbrown Firecracker

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    Our community (meaning the Baptist and Presbyterian churches) must acknowledge that possession is "real" - b/c in the NT how Jesus cast the demons into the swine, which in turn ran and drowned (sp?) them selves! But do they Actually Address it? no.
    At any rate, I personally certainly believe in possession, and would have my own sort of ritual were I confronted (I think and hope)- and have a kind of ritual, I guess you'd call it when "cleansing" one's home (several)...which I know is not possession such as what you speak of, I don't think. But we have felt breezes go by as they left out the doors and windows. Honest. Heard some funny stuff.

    I am glad to see this, your thread...for I do truly believe that there need to be people, More people, able to perform a rite or ritual to rid one of possession.
     
  3. Apsagni

    Apsagni Guest

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    The problem I see with your definition of possession

    is that possession isn't always that obvious. When we see a case like you told, it's because the person didn't get help in time. A catholic priest, who is Kabbalist also, showed me and explained me how a exorcism work and how to see if someone is possessed or not and most of the time it's not so obvious.

    When possession begins, it's not an autonomous being , it will be just a kind of density around the person affectedm and if this person doesn't take care of it, maybe, and just maybe, it will get worst.
     
  4. Ukr-Cdn

    Ukr-Cdn Striving towards holiness

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    Apsagni, I agree that most possessions do not manifest in such extreme ways. In one selse, a person who commits a grave sin could be said to have been affected by a type of demonic possession. Those who are consumed by hatred for God (from which grave sins flow) may be under a demonic possession. I think the point of the list is to quell fears that it is merely people who suffer from chemical imbalances being forcibly put through these important rites, ultimately to no success (Wasn't that the plot of a movie not long ago?).

    I am curious Lynn, why you might think that the leadership doesn't address the issue of possession? Is there, in these Churches, a trend that tends to see only the past as containing supernatural events (things like true miracles, possessions, and the intercession of guardian angels---and if they believed in them, the power of the Saints) and that these things simply do not happen at all today? Or is it based on what type of Christinaity they preach, which for me studying Calvin and other Protestant movements, to be very individualistic in that sin is only a personal matter, one is very separate from his/her brethren in terms of relationship with God?

    Does the "personal relationship with God" in turn harm those who do commit grave sins, and by extension those under demonic influence?

    I'd also be personally interested in what types of prayers, or formulas of prayers, you would say when "cleansing" a house.
     
  5. Lynnbrown

    Lynnbrown Firecracker

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    First of all Ukr, you pretty well described the vast majority of protestant churches, regarding how they (again, for the most part) feel such as those things you have brought up do not happen today...they sometimes like to speak of the miracle of healing, but most don't like to dwell on "supernatural events" (a quite apt term, Ukr). "That" (the supernatural events) happened during Jesus time...period.

    I don't really understand the question after that about one's personal relationship with God, grave sins, etc. However, a favorite past-time for many prostestants is judging other's relationship with God. lol

    In this open sub-forum, Ukr, I will only say that I have a "kit" for "cleaning house". This would include a bible, bay leaf(s) and salt (preferably sea-salt). Holy water and/or rosemary oil (which I make)...And a main (but not only) and most important part of the process is knowing the Lord's Prayer.

    And last, but most certainly not least...I personally do not believe just anyone can effectively perform an exorcism, much less a good "cleansing". One must absolutely, positively, have faith and believe. A person should never attempt such as what you (and I) are discussing that does not truly believe in what they are doing, who has doubts, lacks true faith, etc as that would be ineffective at best and at worst that person could stand to be possessed themselves.
     
  6. Lynnbrown

    Lynnbrown Firecracker

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    I think one can possess all the accurate and arcane knowledge in the world; however, if he lacks faith, that knowledge will likely do him/her or nobody any good.
     
  7. Ukr-Cdn

    Ukr-Cdn Striving towards holiness

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    I did not state that so eloquently.

    In my understanding of various Protestant groups (especially those that are Baptist, Evangelical, Pentecostal, etc.) our relationship with God is something personal. The stress seems to be on a very individualistic principle or relationship where it is always "me and God" and not "me and God and everyone we know".

    By not having to confess to a priest, does one's sins--if grave (meaning that they are of a very serious nature that cause rupture from the promises of eternal live)--hurt the individual, if we assume that grave sins are a type of demonic possession? If one recognises that they have commited a great sin (and I equal this to a type of possession), does the idea that sin is between only "them and God" end up pushing them further and further away from the spiritual help of the community that they desperately need?

    The Magisterium teaches that sin is not only a violation against God, but also against the self (there is a reason why masturbation had been referred to as abusing oneself) and also the community. The community then has a vested intrest in protecting and saving those from demonic possession. If a person falls into grave sin, it is expected that they reconcile not only with God, but also with the community (the priest occupies both these roles in the Sacrament of Confession. He acts in Christs place temporally and also as a stand-in for the entire community).

    Going back and reading this, I do not think that my initial question was a very good one, and the answer would probably be "No". The reason i answer no, even though I affirm the necesity of Confession is the way I worded my question and thought process. A person in the state of grave sin would still need to recognise the need for forgiveness from God to exorcise the demon (if there is indeed one). From the Protestant perspective, the same is true in that the individual would need to pray and ask God for forgiveness.
     
  8. Lynnbrown

    Lynnbrown Firecracker

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    Ukr, you have hit upon a most interesting topic (I think anyway) regarding the confession of sin. The bible says there should be confession, public confession, if I am not mistaken, in order for one to be forgiven. So I totally understand the "need" or purpose of going to confession could most certainly serve this purpose. And yes, we Protestants
    are surely supposed to ask forgiveness from God. However, if we have wronged someone, or even if someone thinks we have wronged them, we (prostestants) are supposed to go to them and apologize, confess a wrong has happened or whatever it takes not to be a stumbling block. This is most especially true for church leaders.

    I don't know if you have even heard of the televangelist Jimmy Swaggart...which there was a time I would get up at 6am to hear him! (years ago)...he "sinned" by watching a prostitute (not "participating) and of course this came out somehow. This is to say, that I watched TV as J Swaggart went on national TV saying he had sinned (without getting into details that nobody really wanted to hear) and that he hoped his wife, family, and etc forgave him. In my mind that was definitely going by the book to ask for forgiveness (and receive it).
    The churches I have known, attended do encourage community; I just guess I need to find one where I don't know the people that go there (and what they do outside of church). But you are right in that Prostestants do stress that individualistic relationship with God rather than you and the ones you know and God. It's that judgement thing that comes into play when they (Prostestants) get to thinking about you and the ones you know and God.
    I do think God wants us to be concerned about those around us, for what it's worth, but not in a judging way...but with compassion and an eye for making sure their physical needs are met.
     
  9. Ukr-Cdn

    Ukr-Cdn Striving towards holiness

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    Whilst I agree that asking forgiveness from those you've wronged directly is good practice, it pales in comparison to the type of Confession that offers assurance of absolution. Asking for forgiveness from others can be a penance, but is not the process of absolution.

    It appears to me, that Christ gives uniquely the 12 his own power to forgive sins as a man by the power of God. It is only by asking God that we are granted absolution (I think the fact that we have to ask for forgiveness is an hole in the sola fide bucket).

    When I said that I find Catholics are more concerned about the whole community, I did not mean that we are all up in other's business, but that our faith is Universal in that it is not open to private interpretation. We have rules by which we read Scripture (Tradition being one). We also have a unique identity that (although in some ways is being lost) permeates our being, and our community.


    I also must say that I do think that "watching a prostitute" (whether stripping, or performing a sexual act with another person) is a sin, and a very serious one at that. I would say, if i did that, that I'd be risking damnnation if I died before recieving absolution for that sin. Is it not the same as watching pornography?
     
  10. Lynnbrown

    Lynnbrown Firecracker

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    Re the question about J Swaggart's sin and it being basically the same as watching porn, I would that is it about exactly...only it was live porn...
    And you feel that seriously, Ukr? About that particular sin? I'm not being sarcastic or anything...I'm serious. Since masterbation only involves oneself, and for a (probably brief) time maybe an imaginary person or a "real" someone else, but just in your mind...and it is done with basically with one's body, rather than to the body (in my eyes, in my mind, anyway). I just wouldn't think I (or anyone for that matter) would be risking eternal damnation for this (solitary) act. For that act, and that alone.
    I think one will really have to earn eternal damnation.
    Maybe it is being female...I don't know...I've just never given much thought to, nor heard much about, that being a (serious) sin....I know, I know...all sins are supposed to be the same.
    But being told, physically, that I am or will be forgiven (after performing whatever penance the priest deems appropriate), this is being given absolution, right?
     
  11. Lynnbrown

    Lynnbrown Firecracker

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    When I have "sinned against" someone, I am just freakin overcome until I go to the person and apologize...that's just the way it is.
    I've been like that for a long time. However, what I judge to be "sinning against" may not necessarily match everyone else's. :) You can know this: I don't and haven't and will not (ever) see a married man. I have morals, values, etc and try my best to follow the 10 commandments.
    That being said...after I have had myself "ironed out within" - apologized as necessary...there is like a weight that feels lifted from me. When my "sins" are all within (which is most usual for the past number of years) I talk to God, and really, God, alone.
    I feel His forgiveness...and feel that no matter what...I will always have time for that....to request that eternal forgiveness, so to speak. Hey, it doesn't have to be done aloud.
     
  12. Ukr-Cdn

    Ukr-Cdn Striving towards holiness

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    A few thigns in here, and then I'll get to your next post.

    What this post mainly is about is sexuality, and its misuse. I think you would agree that sexuality is given to us by God, and is meant to be shared with a married partner. I am 100% serious that watching a person to become sexually aroused (especially if it involves the naked body or sexual acts) is a sin. It is the same as pornography.

    What we do when we engage in masturbation, premarital sex, or sex with contracepption is that we dehumanise the act. We go against the very thing, new life, that God gave us sexuality for. We turn what is inherently a selfless act (because in it we end up giving out lives wholly to another person) into one of self gratification. I have used this phrasing before, but I honestly think that so called protected sex, is immature. (You might hear soon about the Pope's recent condom comments, but he isn't really saying what the media says he is). Condoms take a very adult decision, and reframe it in a way that is (usually) free of the physical consequences of pregneancy.

    What we do when we masturbate is say to God. I love myself so much I just want to feel good. Me Me Me...We would abuse the very thing God gave us out of love and for love for ourselves. We can definetly sin with only ourselves.

    The reason I mention Hell in regards to masturbation is because of the Catholic and Orthodox understanding of sin. There are degrees of sin. Saying to a child that their dog went to a farm is nto the same in God's eyes as murder. in commiting a grave sin, we reject God and all his Son's promises. Mortal sins exclude us from the kingdom, and non serious sins, whilst still deserving of punishment, do not necessarily warrant damnnation.

    Think of this scenerio. You murder someone, repent and receive forgiveness from God. Prior to repenting, do you think you go to Hell if you had perished?
    Now lets say you are in a state of grace, and you lie to your mother about staying out late (you went to a party when you were not supposed to) and perish prior to repenting for the lie. Do you then deserve punishment eternally? God does view sins differently. But how can a non-forgiven sin enter Heaven? After life we cannot repent, right? Well that is how the Church defined the doctrine of the final theosis, or purgatory. A final cleansing of any temporal effects of sin. We will be made clean just as metal through a fire is purified.


    Lastly, Absolution is more than mere forgiveness. Absolution is like when a criminal has his record expunged. It is like it never happened. Forgiveness is merely, well, forgiving the person, but the lingering effects will still be present. The Penance is to help the penitent grow in faith, love, and charity--as well as to help remove the effects of the sin. What is needed for absolution is a contrite heart and the desire to not sin again (and to avoid the occasion of sin).
     
  13. Ukr-Cdn

    Ukr-Cdn Striving towards holiness

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    I have asked protestants before about how they privately ask God for forgiveness (and I had done it too prior to converting to the Church) and it had always left me wanting more. It always seemed so contrived.

    Your explanation comes close to what I experience in the confessional (which also offers consul). I leave fealing light. I feel as though I have, during my time in sin, been in the desert without food or water for 40 days, but leaving (even without attending Mass after) I feel as though I have been attending a great feast and am greatly nourished by the power and Spirit of God.
     
  14. Lynnbrown

    Lynnbrown Firecracker

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    I find myself wishing the prostestants had a type of confessional and absolution...if there is a parallel, I am not aware of it.
    Unfortunately, I am aware of, well, counseling sessions (as the person thought they were private counseling sessions) and the pastor(s) - this happened at 2 different churches I am personally aware of - the pastors (acting as counselors) TOLD their families, which of course, in turn, were incapable of totally keeping their collective mouths shut. So what I am in saying is there is apparently not a binding thing - concerning privacy and "forgiveness" with "counseling" offered by prostestant preachers, whereas a confessional is at least supposed to be totally private, bound by some kind of priviledge like between dr and patient, right?
    Crazy as it might sound to some (and perhaps even most prostestants) I think confession and absolution would make me feel really good. Like being given last rites...how could this hurt a believer? oh well, I digress.
     
  15. Ukr-Cdn

    Ukr-Cdn Striving towards holiness

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    In the Catholic Church, we do not have to fear divulgences of our sins by yhe priest because he is bound by the Seal of the Confessional. Automatic excommunicaion befals anyone who makes know what was said. This is even the subject of a Hitchcock omvie, "I, Confess". Hitchcock thought the film was a failure because only Cahtolics, like himself, understood why the framed priest could not say that he heard the killers' confession.

    I know the Anglican and Lutheran Churches have Confession, but it is not required. My proff, who happens to be an Anglican deacon said to me: The Anglican Church's doctrine of confession is this: Everyone may, nobody must, many should" This is intended to be funny.

    You'd be surprised what some say about how confession hurts the believer (it stems from the belief, or phrasing, that the priest acts "in persona Christi", or in the person of Christ.
    Many Protestant groups essentailly call the practice demonic in that it is anti-Christ. Jack Chick being one of these people. For a Baptist, you are very open to these things whereas I know of some that shy away from any sort of "Catholic" thing like the plauge.
     
  16. Lynnbrown

    Lynnbrown Firecracker

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    Even tho I am a member at a Baptist church, and am actually glad to say that I was "saved" and baptised when I was 9 yrs old and have attended numerous other types of protestant churches, you may notice that I have said I don't attend church right now...that being said...I am only too aware that I have thoughts, ideas, and my own personal scriptural interpretations that are almost opposite to what many/most in these organized churches hold.
    I mean, I guess I don't find it surprising that I would be interested in something others (of the same faith, supposedly) would shun.
     
  17. Ukr-Cdn

    Ukr-Cdn Striving towards holiness

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    That is fine. I do not profess to know much about the various Protestant faiths en masse, let alone specifics for each of the thousands of groups out there. What I can state positively is that any incorporation of the Church's beliefs or practises into one's personal devotions then I would grant that move to the Holy Spirit working with the individual.
     
  18. Psilo_Cybin

    Psilo_Cybin Member

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    I wonder how often this happens because I personally, have never ever heard of anyone having an exorcism done.
     
  19. def zeppelin

    def zeppelin All connected

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    I thought this thread was very interesting. How frequent are demon possessions? Can the person inflicted perform exorcism on themselves? Are there any official recordings of an exorcism being performed on the person who clearly shows signs? Or maybe it's not allowed to show respect for the family and faith... I search youtube but unless I know it's official I can't really trust it.
     
  20. Lynnbrown

    Lynnbrown Firecracker

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    OK, I don't anything official really - but I know dadgum well that there are exorcisms done - I have not an idea how many, or how many are successful, and how any are not...or how many must be done more than once.

    A Jesuit is who I would pose that question to! Since the Catholic church is apparently showing signs of educating (more) in this, I would be willing be bet they (meaning the Catholic church) considered the possession and needed exorcism real and "official".

    I know this - nobody who truly needs an exorcism could ( NOR would they want to) perform an exorcism on themselves. lol...that was a trick question, right? :)
     

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