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LSD vs Ketamine


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#1 inthydreams911

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Posted June 23 2010 - 09:21 AM

So I read the article on erowid about ketamine use, and how they say lsd and ketamine are like yin and yang, life and death, sensory overload and sensory shutdown.

Can anyone go more in depth about this? I know that lsd's ultimate goal is a state of egoloss and oneness with the universal consciousness.

What is the ultimate goal of ketamine? I heard there is no egoloss. What happens in a k hole? Do you go to the farthest reaches of mind?

I've heard of people easily losing there physical senses, and becoming conscious of there subtle body, not your awareness or soul, but like your astral form (which I guess is still a construct of the greater mind).

Is it worth trying it? Ive heard a lot of brain damage issues with it? Anyone feel wrecked from a one time use of ketamine?

If I were to try it, should I try a little dose first time, then try k hole? Or go straight for the k hole?

How close is a k hole to a breakthrough dmt, craziness wise?

#2 unfocusedanakin

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Posted June 23 2010 - 09:27 AM

It can be very habit forming, pretty much the only Psyc where that is true. Long term use will lead to health issues. Do your research, but in moderation many people enjoy it.

A friend once describes his K trip as this "If you want to know what it's like to die, take some K".

It's a bit of a darker experience then LSD for many people, be ready. For a first time do not try for a K hole IMO.
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#3 guerillabedlam

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Posted June 23 2010 - 10:28 AM

I no longer use ketamine but I used it far more than any other psychedelic (unless we count ecstasy) Like unfocusedanakin said its very compulsive in nature and dark, I also personally don't consider it psychedelic myself. It certainly allows you to peer into a unique way of thinking while on it but to about the level nitrous does to me, Its more of an experience type thing.

The best LSD experiences to me are the complete death/rebirth(yin/yang) process of I guess some eastern thought but I think where the comparison may stem from is LSD and most psychedelics heighten awareness and senses as where ketamine dims awareness and senses, this is most notable in the loss of motor function especially in the k hole where many can barely move. If a profound experience is what you seek then maybe do one low dose to test it and then go straight to a k hole. Eventhough its darker in nature I feel its much easier than LSD and not truly a Near Death Experience. It anasthetizes you and wraps you in a 'warm bubble' so its not scary at all and there is no sense of pain,sorrow, or acceptance which I attribute to a NDE and have experienced on LSD. There is not really chance for a 'bad trip' if you use it in a room with few distractions. Thats not to say certain people dont experience some fear on it tho. It can at its worst just become a desire to constantly go to K land as I feel it deceivingly made me feel something was real or true there.

There are physical concerns associated with ketamine which I have experienced, but LSD is not without flaw, although most of its probblems seem to be mental. Thoroughly read up on ketamine before you decide to use it. Its certainly a profound experience in the k hole but I am much happier now that I don't use it.

#4 pr0ne420

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Posted June 23 2010 - 10:34 AM

^ word

#5 PonyGrl420

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Posted June 23 2010 - 11:30 AM

Ive done quite a bit of each, and I perfer LSD over K any day. I dont do either anymore, though I love love to get my hands on some good acid.
After a good acid trip I'd always come out feeling enlightened, with a sence of direction and accomplishment. Ive never had a BAD trip, but even trips that werent great I felt like I learned something.
K, I dont have that, I come out hazy and lost. I never really liked getting into a hole, espically a deep one. There was one time where everything just turned blue, and I couldent move, apparently I was like that for a few hours. I dont remember anything else, but I know I was very uneasy, not scared, just not rite. That was probably my worst hole, which I guess is pretty good.
The first time I did K I had no idea what it was, so I just did a bump. I remember walking back, well I should say floating, I swore I was like 3 feet off the ground, it was very enjoyable.
I had gotten myself into a few holes mostly to see what it's like, but I would much rather just do a bit and stay outa the hole.
I even tried it intramuscularly and it's a diffrent expierence then snorting it, never put myself in a hole that way though.
Ive never had any health effects from it

If your looking to use it as more of a tool I dont know that you can, I never have.

#6 guerillabedlam

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Posted June 23 2010 - 11:41 AM

^ Ah intramuscular injection k hole is the pinnacle of the ketamine experience to me. Some say iv injection but that comes and goes way too fast.

I completely agree in that I don't think its really a tool.

#7 Mr.Writer

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Posted June 23 2010 - 02:16 PM

So I read the article on erowid about ketamine use, and how they say lsd and ketamine are like yin and yang, life and death, sensory overload and sensory shutdown.

Can anyone go more in depth about this? I know that lsd's ultimate goal is a state of egoloss and oneness with the universal consciousness.

What is the ultimate goal of ketamine? I heard there is no egoloss. What happens in a k hole? Do you go to the farthest reaches of mind?


Lol, what is "the farthest reaches of mind"? ;) Honestly ketamine is possibly the strangest, most difficult to describe altered state of consciousness possible. At low doses it will feel as though you are no longer "in your life", but are "watching your life", as though in a movie . . further doses will increase the degree of seperation, so you will feel like you are watching a movie of someone reading a book in which an actor participates in a play of your life. There is a kind of outward funneling of awareness, a tunnel vision where your immediate physical reality is still in front of you, but a trillion miles away.

At high doses, 250mg, the K hole, you have no reference points to anything at all, and pure consciousness and the psychic dynamics which determine its interactions rule all. You will learn the laws of mind. You will see the building blocks of thought, the atomic components of cellular transmission of data; you will have your face shoved into the blueprints of awareness itself, and as you are this awareness, you will be as a skeleton of intent and meaning, your shiny mental bones stretching outwards and onwards to infinity and eternity, all insignificant machinations on display for your cool, detached, objective self to inspect and learn from. You will learn much about you, but the difficulty is in (using Mckenna's metaphor) catching the right sized fish. Much of the useful fishies you find will be far too strange and removed from ordinary states of mind to have any use outside the k hole. It is the medium sized fish you must train yourself to be open to, and this takes practice with ketamine.

I've heard of people easily losing there physical senses, and becoming conscious of there subtle body, not your awareness or soul, but like your astral form (which I guess is still a construct of the greater mind).

I like this formulation although i disagree with some possible metaphysical implications of it. But the subjective sense is certainly of suddenly inhabiting a new corpus, or rather, of being in a state as maximally removed from inhabiting a corpus as imaginable. You become pure spirit, completely distant from the physical reality, even your own immediate physical reality (can't feel a heart beat or your own breathing, which you think you can't feel anyways when you're sober, well you can, your mind just tunes it out. But when it's literally gone, you notice, and it's scary at first! Hence the 'death' theme)

Is it worth trying it?

Abso-fucking-lutely! Ketamine is worth trying again, and again, and again, until you learn how to use it properly.

Ive heard a lot of brain damage issues with it? Anyone feel wrecked from a one time use of ketamine?

No, and no. I feel about as wrecked from a K hole as I do from a cannabis session.

If I were to try it, should I try a little dose first time, then try k hole? Or go straight for the k hole?

If you've only got a bit to play with, take it all, go for the K hole first time. That's what I did with DXM and I am glad I made that decision. If you have some to play with, try these levels: 25mg, 50mg, 75mg, 150mg, 250mg.

How close is a k hole to a breakthrough dmt, craziness wise?

Come on man, you know this, apples and oranges. It's like asking "How close is getting shot to skydiving, craziness wise?" How could I even begin to compare the two. They are both crazy. A k hole will be less about "overdosing on shock" than DMT is though.

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#8 Sam_Stoned

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Posted June 23 2010 - 02:30 PM

Can anyone go more in depth about this? I know that lsd's ultimate goal is a state of egoloss and oneness with the universal consciousness.


Don't push that Buddhist bullshit on me. That is the polar opposite of what I seek in my use of psychedelics. Sorry, I know that a lot of people appreciate that kind of thing, but I hate all these cliche generalizations about tripping and so called enlightenment.

I do drugs to take me further away from any sense of oneness, save from myself. I do it to reflect on individuality and pull myself further away from the mindset pushed on me by nature and nurture.

Sorry, back to the topic at hand. :D

#9 guerillabedlam

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Posted June 23 2010 - 02:41 PM

"how close is ketamine to a breakthrough Dmt experience craziness wise?"

intravenous use of ketamine is very similar to a Dmt breakthrough craziness wise, in fact they both whirl with sound on the comeup and vibrate until reality is ripped apart and then you're done as quick as you came. Unless you know someone who is has some schooling with needles though probably don't go the iv route anytime soon, I actually prefer im injection over iv eventhough its not quite as 'crazy'.

I think a more appropriate comparison to ketamine anyways is a salvia breakthrough although its a lot more comforting to me than salvia can be.

#10 inthydreams911

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Posted June 23 2010 - 04:47 PM

Thank you Writer! Sounds way better then I thought. Defiantly gonna look more into it.

And as for SamStoned, if you took a large enough dose of lsd or dmt your ego would completely dissolve, you would be forced into awareness, into oneness.

#11 Mr.Writer

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Posted June 23 2010 - 05:14 PM

Sam, your intent with drugs is a wholly different thing from the effects of those drugs. You may not care about eastern thought regarding being, but it's not that we are looking at psychedelics through those eastern goggles (though we are!), rather the psychedelic experience is plainly, on the surface, as directly as possible, an experience which has been for thousands of years described in eastern literature.

We are not trying to convert you to anything, only asking that you see that your highly personal experiences already have a library written about them, by people from what amounts to another world (considering temporal and geographic distance), yet people nonetheless, and therefore the same consciousness as you. Lao Tzu is the same stock of flesh as you, and he may write under a different banner than what you are used to, but his words will ring true and clean should you give them the opportunity to ferment in your mind. Buddhism, hinduism, taoism . . . these are all much closer to that world we enjoy visiting than any other system of discourse we have created. IMO

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#12 inthydreams911

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Posted June 23 2010 - 05:36 PM

Exactly Writer. That was put beautifully. You'[re on another level maaaan! Ima get on yo level!

#13 Mr.Writer

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Posted June 23 2010 - 06:08 PM

To get on my level you must first understand the falseness of the idea of levels :sifone:

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#14 inthydreams911

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Posted June 23 2010 - 06:31 PM

Hahaha, there are no lines, there are no lines, there are no lines!

But you know what I mean, its like when you smoke, and you can't tell if your high enough, I want to know, shit, yes I'm high! Its like I got it but I don't know I got it, I want to know I got it!

Ive seen the prelude to what my next acid trip will be like, its gonna be there!

#15 Mr.Writer

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Posted June 23 2010 - 06:45 PM

If you have to ask, you haven't got it! :D

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#16 Sam_Stoned

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Posted June 24 2010 - 06:21 AM

Sam, your intent with drugs is a wholly different thing from the effects of those drugs. You may not care about eastern thought regarding being, but it's not that we are looking at psychedelics through those eastern goggles (though we are!), rather the psychedelic experience is plainly, on the surface, as directly as possible, an experience which has been for thousands of years described in eastern literature.

We are not trying to convert you to anything, only asking that you see that your highly personal experiences already have a library written about them, by people from what amounts to another world (considering temporal and geographic distance), yet people nonetheless, and therefore the same consciousness as you. Lao Tzu is the same stock of flesh as you, and he may write under a different banner than what you are used to, but his words will ring true and clean should you give them the opportunity to ferment in your mind. Buddhism, hinduism, taoism . . . these are all much closer to that world we enjoy visiting than any other system of discourse we have created. IMO



Good reply. I dig what you're saying, but I just get a different interpretation from it than you are. I respect a lot of buddhist philosphies, actually the Dalai Lamas book "Advice on Dying and Living a Better Life" seriously helped me improve my attitude toward my self and the world.

And I deffenitly do notice the subtle themes in these (drug) experiances and see how closly they relate to many eastern schools of thought... I just have one key distinction.

The buddhists believe that true enlightenment and nirvana comes from achieving this state of oneness with the workings of the world around you. Absolute selflessness and detatchment. I disagree, I think the thing to cherish is awareness of life. The ability to think and percieve and willfully change/effect the world around you. A tree isn't in a state of nirvana being a tree, neither is the wind or the rain. It runs in it's willless and endlessly convoluted patterns of motion, breath, and energy for the soul purpose of creating the nourshing habitat required for more complicated beings of awareness to feed from and live.. so that we can continue to live and fuck and learn and hurt and build and destroy and evolve. To live fully.

Maybe my notions on the themes of buddhisism are misleading, but it seems to me to focus on regression to a much simpler and mundane state of being that to truly span outward and forward...

But shit, I'm worng most of the time anyway.

#17 Mr.Writer

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Posted June 24 2010 - 06:56 AM

This

The buddhists believe that true enlightenment and nirvana comes from achieving this state of oneness with the workings of the world around you. Absolute selflessness and detatchment.


and this

I think the thing to cherish is awareness of life. The ability to think and percieve and willfully change/effect the world around you. A tree isn't in a state of nirvana being a tree, neither is the wind or the rain. It runs in it's willless and endlessly convoluted patterns of motion, breath, and energy for the soul purpose of creating the nourshing habitat required for more complicated beings of awareness to feed from and live.. so that we can continue to live and fuck and learn and hurt and build and destroy and evolve. To live fully.

are not incompatible. I believe you have a mistaken impression of what buddhism says is a "goal of enlightenment" or whatever. These terms are awful haha. Buddhism says yes, enjoy it all, do your thing, but understand its ultimate insignificance. I'm not much of a mahayana or theravada or whatever advocate. I fall squarely and snuggly into the zen school, so I'm not a good teacher of these mainstream "religious" buddhist ideals. When I say 'buddhist' i really mean 'zen buddhist'. So it is the un-teachings of zen which i am saying are wholly compatible with the psychedelic experience, and vice versa. They go together like PB and J. A psychedelic experience can be said to be chemically induced kensho.

If I understand you properly, what you are rejecting is the nihilistic direction of buddhism, the detachment from the physical world. I reject this as well in a sense. I think the Taoists have got the idea, and the Zen crowd has the technique.

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#18 inthydreams911

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Posted June 24 2010 - 08:20 AM

Dude even the bible makes sense now.

#19 Sam_Stoned

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Posted June 24 2010 - 08:23 AM

Suppose I should do more studying before I make such judgments.

I like the way you explain things writer. I sometimes have trouble articulating my thoughts.

#20 shermin

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Posted June 24 2010 - 03:00 PM

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that's what happened to me...there was definately a "battle" being faught, and the LSD won...hands down.

i guess my brain was collateral damage or something.
ABSTRACT EXPRESSIONISM.
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#21 inthydreams911

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Posted June 24 2010 - 04:24 PM

Writer you are defiantly a master of articulating your ideas. I guess it's easy though when your sight is clear. :)

#22 PB_Smith

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Posted June 24 2010 - 09:35 PM

They go together like PB and J.


Who is this J person and why should I go with them?
Insanity laughs under pressure we're breaking
Can't we give ourselves one more chance
Why can't we give love that one more chance
Why can't we give love give love give love give love
give love give love give love give love give love
'Cause love's such an old fashioned word
And love dares you to care for
The people on the edge of the night
And love dares you to change our way of
Caring about ourselves
This is our last dance
This is our last dance
This is ourselves
Under pressure

[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

PB is just a dick. He knows it too.

Really sucks when you jump on the bandwagon, only to find it's the garbage truck.


#23 guerillabedlam

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Posted June 24 2010 - 10:00 PM

Who is this J person and why should I go with them?


:rofl: ooooh how I wish I was stoned right now.

#24 PB_Smith

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Posted June 24 2010 - 10:11 PM

:rofl: ooooh how I wish I was stoned right now.


Me too.:(

Spent 10 hours today as an audience member for the new "Don't Forget the Lyrics" show. I'm tired, my hands hurt from clapping so much, and my voice is almost gone, but it was a relatively fun experience.
They taped 8 or 9 shows, so my ugly mug will be on TV sometime this fall season.:D
Insanity laughs under pressure we're breaking
Can't we give ourselves one more chance
Why can't we give love that one more chance
Why can't we give love give love give love give love
give love give love give love give love give love
'Cause love's such an old fashioned word
And love dares you to care for
The people on the edge of the night
And love dares you to change our way of
Caring about ourselves
This is our last dance
This is our last dance
This is ourselves
Under pressure

[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

PB is just a dick. He knows it too.

Really sucks when you jump on the bandwagon, only to find it's the garbage truck.


#25 inthydreams911

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Posted June 25 2010 - 11:32 AM

So wait how is a natural dissociative like Salvia compared to something like Ketamine. I mean I do remember the very distant feeling from my thoughts and my bodily actions. It felt like someone was talking through my body, reading a script, and my body was following the words on the script. Hmm the metaphor for that just became more clear to me.

#26 Mr.Writer

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Posted June 25 2010 - 06:12 PM

salvia is better placed in between dissociative and psychedelic. it is not a pure dissociative, merely has some aspects of their effects.

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#27 TomasTomasTomas

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Posted June 27 2010 - 03:55 PM

i experimented a lot of ketamin last year. you could try it once but it's not worth exploring. it's not really that magic, very particular weird and unice every time but i don't see the magic and there aren't any improvment inside or outside in mi opinion. you get damaged if you use it a lot it's horse tranquilizer but i feel fine. nothing is like acid!

#28 guerillabedlam

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Posted June 27 2010 - 04:48 PM

Lol I'm listening to the New Chemicals Brothers.... I may have to make an exception to do K one more time if I see them in August for this shit.

"]

and the classic for good measure

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ng3vMYQQ-mQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ng3vMYQQ-mQ