Moving Server to USA?

Discussion in 'Site Announcements' started by skip, Apr 13, 2008.

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  1. skip

    skip Founder Administrator

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    As many of you know, our hosting company is currently located in Amsterdam. It's been there for the last 4 years as a precaution against overly zealous US gov't spying, which imo voids people's privacy rights.

    In addition by hosting the server in a country with such a liberal reputation, the US gov't would have a hard time getting the Dutch to force our host to release info about our users. They can't subpoena another country.

    However the current devaluation of the US dollar now means that we are paying TWICE as much for this server as a similar (or better) system in the US would cost.

    And since our USER SUPPORT isn't enough to pay for that overseas server, we may be forced to make this move regardless of the consequences.

    If we were to move the server, we could no longer protect our users as well as we do now. The gov't could subpoena our new hosting company for info (logs), and we wouldn't even know about it!

    OK, so that's the bad news. The good news is things have changed over the past 4 years that make this scenario less likely to impact our users.

    First of all the spy capability of the US gov't has nearly made it irrelevant where the server lives. They can pretty much find out what they need to know without subpoenas.

    Second, we are on the verge of having a new gov't in the US, so when the Bushies are gone, hopefully the damage they've done to privacy will be fixed, and this will be much less of an issue.

    Third, in the 12 years I've been a webmaster of many websites, we've only received one subpoena (cause someone threatened the president). So this hasn't been a big issue. I don't know whether that is due to the fact that the server is in Amsterdam or because so few ppl are actually breaking laws via our websites.

    So I'm asking you ppl what you think about moving the site. My hand will be forced to make the move if there isn't sufficient support from our users to pay the extra amount needed to keep the server where it is.

    Our current server is more than 4 years old, the hard drive is full and the processors are maxing out with our increasing traffic, so a decision must be made soon.

    For those who want us to stay in Amsterdam, you can help out by supporting the site.
     
    1 person likes this.
  2. hippiehillbilly

    hippiehillbilly the old asshole

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    well skip i think it would be a dangerous move to move it to the united states given the present political climate here,however i dont think you should feel obligated to try an insure your users safety either.
    id love to contribute again,unfortunately the economic situation leaves me with 0 justifiable disposable income,and i fear im probably not the only one in that situation.

    so i guess what i suggest is to do what you have to do to remain financially stable as long as you can..


    maybe,when ya make the move put a big disclaimer up warning folks that while this may be a free speech forum your now subject to U.S. law..

    i dunno..

    good luck in whatever you decide..
     
  3. Roach

    Roach Member

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    Surley you can find a country with cheaper servers with more liberal policies than America?
     
  4. deleted

    deleted Visitor

    I really havent been on here to much, but I seriously think it would be a very bad idea to move to the server to the United States. a very bad idea..im a little scared now.. and not much scares me...


    its possable the us goverment will change with newly elected officials but by how much? could the forum users feel safe after bushs regime is gone?
     
  5. Shale

    Shale ~

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    Damn!

    I just found this place and was amazed at its libertine bent. Been going thru threads that started in 2005 and still continue and have noticed that there are old farts like me able to bridge the conversations with teens.

    In fact, seeing the 14 and 15-year-old kids posting on all the sexually oriented threads was a real pleasure that I'm afraid American Puritanism will somehow be able to end, like on MySpace. (They ban the most innocuous pix with the admonition that there are 14-year-old members)

    Even Literotica of which I am a contributor is very touchy about all the little puritanical laws. So, some virgin is seducing her daddy and she is 18 years old? You have to be 18 even in the written porn to satisfy some inflated age of consent crap of the US. I've changed some of my 16 and 17 year old characters in stories posted there and it sounds contrived.

    So, it was refreshing to see the inclusion of pubescent teens on a site with adult conversations, even down to the nitty-gritty discussion of how-to sex. Do you know if that will have to change?

    I know the reality of finances. BTW, I would donate, but I don't want to use plastic. I could send a check but you don't accept checks. There may be others here who could send small donations or even the $15 a year that don't use plastic (We are Hippies after all).
     
  6. skip

    skip Founder Administrator

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    Not really. America is still a Free Speech bastion, despite the trashing of our constitution by Bush. You'd be surprised how restricted you are in other countries now. Things have gotten far more restrictive over the years elsewhere, and the long arm of the US has forced other countries to cooperate and give the US anything it wants.

    Some countries might not object to the political content of the site, but instead restrict the sexually explicit content. Others would be vice versa.

    Most other countries charge a LOT more for servers, esp. the bandwidth. I believe the bandwidth price is currently cheaper in the US than any other country in the world! In other countries the telecoms are more monopolistic and charge far more for bandwidth. In other countries the taxes are much higher too, so the prices for everything is more.
     
  7. rastapasta

    rastapasta Member

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    us govt is bad news skip. look into canada if you must, and how much power the us has to supena there. things could get real bad if you moved to usa, it would only take 1 15 year old kid to post 1 revealing pic for 1 hour and you would find yourself with prison time. not to mention every mention of drugs and you would have feds looking into you. if anyone thinks that that type of shit is just theory, or wont really happen they are wrong. i had to stop coming on the internet all together and stopped using my name hear cus cops get pigheaded when it comes to internet.
     
  8. skip

    skip Founder Administrator

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    Of course that would depend upon who gets elected. If it's McCain, I really doubt anything would change at all. Hillary & Obama might ease up on things, and with a democratically controlled congress, it would be much easier to change back.

    Again if the US gov't wants you, they have ways of finding you. If they haven't so far (and you have no BIG reason to fear), then they really don't give a shit what you're doing, and are only interested in real criminals.

    In fact, let's look at a possible scenario. Some idiot comes on here wanting to sell drugs. Needless to say they'll get banned as soon as we find out. But let's say they make a post that attracts the attention of the authorities. Well first, it's going to have to be a LOCAL LEO who would need to see it and respond. Then the idiot would have to establish direct contact with the LEO, usually thru other means than this forum.

    So anyone who would possibly be at risk of getting busted would need to engage a LEO OUTSIDE this forum. At that point they are beyond any protection we could give them, indeed we wouldn't protect anyone doing something illegal ON THIS SITE, or offsite anyway!

    Now let's look at a second scenario, that might affect regular members. If someone is doing an mj grow and posts it up on our site, yes they are taking a risk, as they always have. Using proxies does help to an extent. But more likely a LEO would need more than that to take action. Again a LOCAL LEO would need to be involved, they'd have to get the IP# to track the person down.

    For it to be worth the time and effort, it would have to be a BIG grow, and I'm not seeing anyone sharing pix from something big.

    And in many places in the US it's now LEGAL to grow in your home for your own use, so there is NOTHING illegal going on, esp. as far as LOCAL law enforcement is concerned.

    So if a LEO spots a grow, they would first have to KNOW it is in their area, it would have to be a state where it is illegal, it would have to be of a significant size to warrant the effort.

    But if the poster doesn't state where they live, there is NO WAY for a random LEO browsing the forums to get that info. And they're not likely to get a subpoena until they have that info.

    So you see it's really only the feds that should concern us, unless you are a complete idiot and try do engage a LEO in an illegal transaction. And the Feds have better things to do than raiding someone's closet for a few plants. They only target high profile Big grows like Eddy Lepp's 30,000 plant outdoor grow next to a highway! Put yourself in their faces like that and they'll respond for sure!

    Last scenario is adult/child sexually explicit interactions. Obviously kiddie porn has never been an issue since it's prohibited on just about every website on the planet now. Kids viewing porn is so ubiquitous, the few incidental naked images that appear in our REGULAR forums are not likely to impact any kid in a negative way anymore than they would an adult.

    Our Erotica forums (only two very slow forums) and Erotic Gallery (likewise very slow) are restricted to paid members over 18 years old. So as far as images go, we are completely legal under US law.

    As previously mentioned we do have a gray area where it comes to discussing sex with "children". Of course there should be no one on this site under 13, so we are really talking about teenagers here. Teenagers who should've had sex ed classes by the age of 13. If not, then what we provide is important information in a free-speech environment where they can ask anything and get a range of answers.

    Discussing sex on an open forum is hardly the same thing as trying to seduce a minor in private. Any law enforcement would need to prove a lot before they could take any action against a member of this site.

    And don't forget age limits vary not only by country, but by state too. So there are lots of variables involved.

    The problem is Americans and LEOs all think the world is just like America, therefore American laws apply to everyone. Well they DON'T! So there are big issues of jurisdiction, International law including Human Rights that need to be considered.

    I suppose in the worst case scenario we all might have to monitor ourselves a bit more (esp. if you're living in the USA). So you might have to think twice about sending an explicit PM to a minor. Big deal. We should be doing that anyway.

    So really the likelihood of any member actually being put more at risk is minor, but enough for me to make this thread, so that you can know what the added risk is...
     
  9. soaringeagle

    soaringeagle Senior Member

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    id support moving it to the us for purely performance and cost effectiveness reasons
    id guess 85% of the users are us based? maybe lil less but a large majority and the perforemance from here lately has sucked balls
    the server crashes a few timers a day and when its up it takes forever to respond to clicks
    the search and other features just stopped working right and basicly its just dragging


    moving to a cheap high capacity server makes sence just for the life of the forums
    also, look at how many new users arive daily..the community is expanding quickly
    and as things do get more messy here it will expand far far faster
    and the hip community will need to grow and expand and discuss more important issues then prepubescent sexuality (why was that even brought up?)

    like you said youd only been subpeonad once for some serius criminal crap even after some ppl i know of had reported 1 guy for posting info about rapes and possibly murder there was no subpeonas (or actions taken) i think theres a huge amount of paranioa going around
    speaking of prepubescent sexuality im betting theres over a million child porn servers based in the usa that woiuld be the focus of investigations long before hipforums

    hell look at all the hippie dippie left wing liberal crap we post all over every day and we barely even get noticed by the right wing concervatives who number in the millions let alone by fbi or cia or dea out to bust anyone

    face it..theyre not payin that close attention to us

    skip..post the server access logs (i know they must be huge) but how many hits do u get from fbi.gov domains?
    im sure a few but not many right? (ive worked at hosting companies and i know practicly every site will get a few hits from surprising sources but that sure dont mean theres official investigations from those sources)


    i'm not paraniod so i wouldnt care if it is moved
    (and keep in mind u said u had 1 supeona for a kid sayin he wanted to kill the poresident..and i am the only 1 on here that i know of who was ever arressted for conspiracy to shoot the president (yea was a huge joke) and posted about it on here

    skip yoiur jobs to run a website
    its not to protect the stupid from stupidity
    if someone wants to post the address of theyre meth lab and gets busted thats not your fault for hosting the site in a certain place, its the fault of the idiot who posted..

    your responcibility lies in keeping the site up and running smoothly..and not in protecting criminals who post theyre crimes

    the users must excersize a lil sensibility in what they choose to post
    no matter where the sites hosted
     
  10. skip

    skip Founder Administrator

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    I trust Canada even less than the US. After Canada worked hand in hand with the DEA in the Mark Emory and Overgrow cases, it seems you're MORE at risk with a server in Canada. It's way too easy for them to confiscate your server and dissect it as we've seen. In addition there have been major inroads made into privacy rights in Canada recently. There may be less protection now than ever.

    And should we have to fight the authorities, it's far easier to do it in the US than a foreign country.

    BTW I should point something out that I forgot to earlier...

    The server would be hosted at a company that supports FREE SPEECH. They've looked over our sites and found NO PROBLEMS with it...

    So it's an American company that would fight for our rights too.

    The company we are considering is beachcomber.net

    You can check them out yourselves... :)
     
  11. rastapasta

    rastapasta Member

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    actually 13 is treated exactly the same a 5 in the US. and speaking from experience, leo feels that he does not need prove anything to take action. i am speaking from a very real experience, until you get embroiled in the legal system yourself, you think that there are powers and processes that protect you, but it is not the case.
    as far as growing pot is concerned, i think you have idealistic views on this too.
    all im saying is that you may want to research thouroughly before makin a move.
     
  12. skip

    skip Founder Administrator

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    Soaring Eagle, you make several good points.

    #1 - Nobody is likely to get in trouble unless someone files a complaint. Even though there may be cops scanning the site from time to time, the odds of them finding anything illegal and acting upon it are minuscule.

    #2 - You are absolutely right that I don't need to protect those who are too stupid to act like responsible adults.

    #3 - Most illegal acts occur outside this website. So we aren't responsible for that at all.

    #4 - Yes, our server is on its last leg. Something must be done soon. I'm sure there's a lot of newbies who encounter site problems who leave and never come back. and it's frustrating for everyone, me especially, to have to deal with a slow server that goes down often.

    Just so you know, I don't go thru our logs looking for anything, much less LEOs doing their jobs. So I can't say how many are coming here. Believe me when they do, they hide their own identities well. And in many cases where it comes to "children" they use outside agents to conduct their scans as revealed by the Predator TV series (they hire a private company whose employees pretend to be minors so they can entrap adults).

    So if we do make this move, we must all be more circumspect in our postings. That's all that needs to change.

    And remember this: I'm probably one of the most paranoid ppl you'll ever know. Not that I have a reason to be, just my nature (growing up in NYC you can't help it).

    So I'd be the first one to worry. That's why I've had the server in Amsterdam all this time. I don't trust the Bushit Administration, with good reason. But hopefully that will soon be history...
     
  13. skip

    skip Founder Administrator

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    Again, not really. 13 (or 14) yr olds can get married in some states. That's hardly treating them like a 5 yr old.

    If you break the LAW nobody's gonna protect you. Period.

    This site isn't about breaking laws, got it?

    If it was ILLEGAL for an adult to discuss sexuality with a minor, there's a LOT of teachers who should be in jail.
     
  14. rastapasta

    rastapasta Member

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    i completely agree with your logic skip. but in most states if you talk sex with a 13 year old, the law views it in the same way as you talking it to a 5 year old. even if that 13 year old pretends that shes 18 or older.
     
  15. skip

    skip Founder Administrator

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    Well when kids lie there's not much anyone can do. Show me what law you're talking about, cause I'm not familiar with it. Lewdness with a minor is a crime yes, just like it can be considered sexual intimidation or harrassment when a co-worker does it. But discussing sexual functions is not lewdness, otherwise teachers couldn't do it.

    Obviously engaging in sex talk with a minor in a PUBLIC forum will come under scrutiny by people who can see to it that the discussion remains above board.

    Engaging in lewd discussions one-on-one in PM or private chat with a minor is another matter entirely and subject to legal restrictions depending upon age and location. So we cannot possibly monitor and control such actions in real time, nor is it our business to.

    The law seems to be putting the onus on parents, not websites, for policing what children do.
     
  16. soaringeagle

    soaringeagle Senior Member

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    as far as im concerned if the biggest issue with moving the server is some ppl might get in trouble for sexual conversations with 13 year olds then lets direct them to namblas sight and be rid of em..
     
  17. deleted

    deleted Visitor

    what is a sexual conversation with a 13 year old SE? when a 13 year old pops up and says I masturbate with string tied to my penis. and you say you shouldnt do that it harmful and end it there. are you going to get arressted for a single post, thats intended for educational reasons.
    sure bet theres predator. but how this forum is different than myspace coms' is the Adults here arnt blind and to whats going on in the world accually. And no other site would even care to ask its members about servers being moved, they would just move em.
    While on the drug aspect.. local leo knows dozens of people here and he dont give a shit about some weed smokers. Orginized crime figures dont do business here.
    and they know that. once you start a big enough fire poeple are going to notice you.. take a picture of 20 plants and post it.. local leo says look how cute. post a pic of a acre and plan to hear Helicopters' its common sence.

    though I said the move to the US would scare me.. The Laws that govern these form of communications are some what protected and we do know about certain legal moves sometimes before they move to make them up against us. just be aware this is the United States and you do have the right to vote! Things do change. not as fast as you like em .. but they do change..
     
  18. shameless_heifer

    shameless_heifer Super Moderator Super Moderator

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    Move it Skip.. do what you can afford.. Just by this thread ppl are warned, if they didn't know before, they know now to be cool. That is what HIP is, being Cool.Don't put yourself out there to be busted.. you wouldn't sell drugs at the copshop or try to pickup a minor for sexual purposes there either.. not saying that LEOs are a large threat here.. but to say.. hold your mug and be cool.. you don't know who your really talking to in some cases. I a way it could be a good thing and keep the preditors away from our kids in here. Which do need protection at times bc they are kids and have not yet gained the knowledge that enlightens them to the dangers in the world.

    We all should be cool in the way we expose ourselves or porteay ourselves in here. I also don't see why a 60 yr old woulld be interested in 13 yr old sex.. to me that's a little over the top. Education is one thing but exploytation is quiet another.

    If your put a pic of pot up esp if your in the pic, then you need a little more education on the ways of the world.. like I said just BE COOL!!

    Skip you have taken more crap off ppl then anyone I know. You do what is best for the site. You have Moderators to keep the place clean. I think we are doing a good job of it so far. You need to save your energies on the site and what is best for you/your finances. If ya ain't fuckin' up there's nothin' to fear, right?

    Bright Blessings
    sh
     
  19. drumminmama

    drumminmama Super Moderator Lifetime Supporter

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    skip, it seems that a move to the US is economically logical at this time.
    both for the server itself and possible legal moves.
    if we need to put erotica in a different supporter only section, well, that's no big deal.
    plus a subscription for that area could net some cash to keep the whole site up!
     
  20. skip

    skip Founder Administrator

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    The erotica forums and galleries are only accessible by supporters now, so I don't have to change that. We're already protected as far as that goes. :)

    Thanks for all the feedback. I like what SH said about the mods. The mods here do a great job, and because of them I can feel more relaxed about doing such a move because they are always looking out for our members.

    Indeed this site is better than most because we do clue the naive into the ways of the Internet so that they don't fuck up and get themselves busted over some easily avoidable incident.

    Hell, they even moderate stupidity! When someone posts up obvious pig bait, it's usually deleted promptly, protecting both the poster and those who might respond stupidly. Likewise when a stupid narc posts up some bait like "need weed", we are on top of those.

    And of course with our bad post reporting system, anyone can complain about a post that they feel is illegal or violates our guidelines. So we are really self-policing, and that's probably why there have been so few legal incidents on this site.

    I think most people, ESPECIALLY kids are already internet savvy and recent studies have shown the Internet to be far safer for kids than having them walk out the door into the real world. That's where the real trouble lies...
     
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