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#1 half a hippie

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Posted September 23 2005 - 09:34 AM

Stretching for Jesus

Christian yoga is gaining a devout following--upsetting purists, Hindus and some Christians
By LISA TAKEUCHI CULLEN/MAHTOMEDI

The yoga teacher sits in a lotus position atop a polished wooden platform. Behind her, verdant woods are visible through panoramic windows. Gentle music tinkles from overhead speakers. Two dozen students in spandex outfits, most of them women, settle onto purple and blue mats to begin the class with ujjayi, a breathing exercise. Their instructor, Cindy Senarighi, recommends today's mantra. "'Yahweh' is a great breath prayer," she says. "The Jesus Prayer also works. Now lift your arms in praise to the Lord."

The platform is an altar, the tinkly tune is praise music, and the practice is Christian yoga. Senarighi's class, called Yogadevotion and taught in the main chapel of St. Andrew's Lutheran Church in Mahtomedi, Minn., is part of a fast-growing movement that seeks to retool the 5,000-year-old practice of yoga to fit Christ's teachings. From Phoenix, Ariz., to Pittsburgh, Pa., from Grand Rapids, Mich., to New York City, hundreds of Christian yoga classes are in session. A national association of Christian yoga teachers was started in July, and a slew of books and videos are about to hit the market. But the very phrase stiffens yoga purists and some Christians--including a rather influential Catholic--who insist yoga cannot be separated from its Hindu roots.

Still, the boom, say its backers, is just beginning. Books on Christian yoga were published as early as 1962, but in recent years, as yoga has become as ubiquitous as Starbucks, more Christians have decided to start their own classes. Susan Bordenkircher, a Methodist from Daphne, Ala., is one. She discovered yoga in 2002. "I knew right away I was getting something out of it spiritually and physically, but it felt uncomfortable in that format," she says. So Bordenkircher prepared a vinyasa, or series of postures, with a biblical bent. Meditations focus on Jesus. She calls the sun salutation, a series of poses honoring the Hindu sun god, a "warm-up flow" instead; other Christians call it the "Son" salutation.

At first, Bordenkircher and other yoga teachers encountered skepticism. Officials at Bordenkircher's church asked her if she could call her exercises something other than yoga, and she has had to convince potential students that meditation is not anti-Christ. John Keller, a pastor at St. Andrew's, tells doubtful parishioners that the Bible describes many postures for prayer and that "yoga is just another way to pray." Also, says Keller, it draws potential converts through the church's doors; about a quarter of Yogadevotion students are not churchgoers.

Yoga purists, while encouraging people of all faiths to practice yoga, recoil at the Christian co-opting of its ancient traditions--especially when used as a tool for evangelizing. "We shouldn't use yoga to sell our students anything," says Patricia Walden, a renowned disciple of hatha yoga guru B.K.S. Iyengar. Moreover, others argue, Hinduism is not like a recipe ingredient that can be extracted from yoga. Says Subhas Tiwari, professor of yoga philosophy and meditation at the Hindu University of America in Orlando, Fla.: "Yoga is Hinduism."

"Christian yoga is an oxymoron," agrees Laurette Willis of Tahlequah, Okla. She says yoga led her to dabble in a rootless New Age lifestyle until she became a Christian in 1987. Willis now speaks to Christian groups against yoga, offering instead a series of poses called PraiseMoves.

Catholics face a more formidable skeptic. In 1989 the Vatican issued a document saying the practice of Eastern traditions like yoga "can degenerate into a cult of the body," warning Catholics against mistaking yoga's "pleasing sensations" for "spiritual well-being." It was signed by then Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger--now Pope Benedict XVI. In a 2003 document the Vatican further distances itself from New Age practices, including yoga. Even so, Father Thomas Ryan, a Catholic leader of the Christian yoga movement, says he interprets the church's position not as a denunciation of yoga but as a reminder to "respect Christian logic" in its practice. "And that's what we're doing," he says.

For Judy Arko, 43, the logic behind Christian yoga is simple. "It gives me time alone with God," she says. "As a mom of two small kids, I don't get that--even in church."



I hate this corruption of eastern practices that is taking place in the west
and tampering with a perfect science by people who are not capable or understand the essence and greatness of the science of yoga.

Before you know it American marketeers will be selling back to us
what they took from us only with a lot of added extra free garbage in it
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#2 Bhaskar

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Posted September 23 2005 - 10:30 AM

I dont have a problem with the trend. After all if understood correctly, Christianity is no different from Hinduism. From all apparent evidence Jesus himself was in the east studying Hinduism & Buddhism which are the soul of yoga. Yoga is a perfect science, so is christianity. That is not to say it is perfectly understood, by Hindus or by Christians.

#3 Bhaskar

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Posted September 23 2005 - 10:33 AM

What is in fact corruption of eastern practices in the west is when every other drugged out new-age spacehead sits in a corner for 10 minutes and thinks he has reached nirvikalpa samadhi. When stoners talk about ohh maaaan we are all one, really... without understanding the meaning of what theyre saying, without living that statement, that is a misuse of eastern practices. When people shave their heads and wear orange and call themselves Gurus, only to have a position of power, to abuse and hurt other people, that is an abuse of eastern religion.

When well meaning christians adapt practices from the east and use it to enhance their own spiritual development, I see nothing wrong with it. More power to them.

#4 tiki_god7

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Posted September 23 2005 - 12:18 PM

I agree...its a small step towards people understanding the similarity of all religion

#5 SvgGrdnBeauty

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Posted September 23 2005 - 12:32 PM

What is in fact corruption of eastern practices in the west is when every other drugged out new-age spacehead sits in a corner for 10 minutes and thinks he has reached nirvikalpa samadhi. When stoners talk about ohh maaaan we are all one, really... without understanding the meaning of what theyre saying, without living that statement, that is a misuse of eastern practices. When people shave their heads and wear orange and call themselves Gurus, only to have a position of power, to abuse and hurt other people, that is an abuse of eastern religion.

When well meaning christians adapt practices from the east and use it to enhance their own spiritual development, I see nothing wrong with it. More power to them.


::nods:: Another thing is the focus here of people only on the physical aspect of yoga (Hatha)...and a lot of people don't understand that yoga is a spiritual science....
...personally...I'm terrible at Hatha Yoga...I try as I could...but I'm retarded when it comes to stretching...lol...I can't even sit in the lotus position...I sit in "half a lotus"....lol... ;)
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You are the endless sea In whom all the worlds like waves Naturally rise and fall. You have nothing to win, Nothing to lose. Child, You are pure awareness, Nothing less. You and the world are one. So who are you to think You can hold on to it, Or let it go? How could you!~ Ashtavakra Gita 15: 11-12

#6 Bhaskar

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Posted September 23 2005 - 12:34 PM

Also, when the science of yoga was written, it was not written only for Hidus or only for Indians or anything. Vedas and shastras are fot eh benefit of the entire world, lokasya aaraadhanaya. Nobody has the right to withhold it from anyone or to stop anyone from practicing it.

#7 BlackBillBlake

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Posted September 23 2005 - 04:03 PM

Already in the west many people think yoga is just a set of physical exercises - a view that is re-inforced by hundreds of 'health' or 'mind, body and spirit' books etc which promote yoga for purely physical ends.

There's no concept that it means union with God. It's more 'do yoga- get a sexy body'!
Within christianity is it's own mystical traditions. Many of the practices which are prescribed by various christian texts are very similar to some yoga practices, esp bhakti - it's almost tempting to say that it is yoga, by another name. There are christian mystical writings which have an amazing depth - unfortunately they are not very widely read.

I really don't know about the theory that Jesus went to India. It seems as unlikely to me as the legend that he came to Britain as a youth with Joseph of Arimathea.

#8 IronGoth

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Posted September 23 2005 - 04:13 PM

Yoga is a technology which indeed can be separated from religion - as can magick.

#9 BlackBillBlake

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Posted September 23 2005 - 04:18 PM

Yoga is a technology which indeed can be separated from religion - as can magick.


Some would file both yoga and religion under the head of magick.

#10 half a hippie

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Posted September 23 2005 - 10:39 PM

Bhaskar I understand your noble thoughts

But there is such a law that I know of called
The Law of Unintended Consquences
This law basically says noble thoughts and actions can at times result
in unintented damages and consequences for the world

You see all christians are not like
savagegardenbeauty,billyblack blake or other hipforum
members who see the oneness of religions
and believe that different religions are different paths
to the same goal

You have differnt types of christians
And the present lot are the type who vote for George W Bush( Campbell34 )
(This act of voting for george bush tells us something about their beliefs)

They believe christianity is under attack and christianity is a
superior religion

In fact at a recent religions of the world council meet
Representatives of Christians once again refused to acknowledge
the equality of religions

There is an interesting reason for this Bhaskar

Pluralism arouses resistance from religious institutions because if all religions are equally valid, it’s hard to know why I should be especially committed to any one of them except for psychological or biographical reasons.

This is what most christians fear

The official line of the vatican is given below

The charter for Catholic concerns with pluralism is the September 2000 Vatican document Dominus Iesus, which insists that followers of other religions are in a “gravely deficient situation” in comparison to Christians who alone “have the fullness of the means of salvation.” Critics worry that pluralism produces relativism, meaning skepticism about objective truth. They say that pluralism implies at least a reinterpretation, if not an outright rejection, of elements of the Nicene Creed — such as that Jesus is the “only Son of God,” not one savior among many, and that he came for the salvation of all, not just of Christians.


Christians have only to lose from accepting other religions as equal
as they will most likely then witness a mass exodus of disgruntled followers to other religions like buddhism,hinduism and Islam .

Its human nature that
The grass is always greener on the other side

This is why most christians are on the backfoot

How can these people with such narrow views who conform to the narrow dictates of the vatican understand anything about
the essence of yoga other than degrade it to some form of PT exercise ?



You said christianity is perfect

I personally know that the bible is an extremely misogynstic book

and it is not without reason that

Noam chomsky says that
" The Bible is one of the most genocidal books in the history of mankind. "
and believe me I have great respect for Noam chomsky ,he is a great inte

No religion in todays world is perfect
Not christianity ,not hinduism ,not islam ,nor any other

Coming back to christian yoga

I believe yoga teachers are extremely incompetent in the west
All they do is do a 6 month yoga course, practice it ,read a few books and Voila !
You are now a yoga teacher

and then these half knowledged people teach some right and wrong
asanas and then we have people complaining on the internet about how
their ass is burning because of improper kundalini awakening .

Yoga is big business in America and is marketed and innovated to suit personal needs (sic)
and the new teachers who teach yoga do it more as a means to earn or supplement their livelyhood

I have my doubts and fears about the west

This is the same country whose corporations are trying to steal and patent people's knowledge all around the world

It is possible that
these people could slightly alter a few asanas and meditation techniques
and patent it off
and everytime I plan to do an asana by standing on my head here in India I will have to pay them royalty

This notion might sound ridiculous to some of you
but I speak only from experience and knowledge
American corporations have patented everything from basmati rice to
medicinal use of neem

The company that patented the medicinal use of neem claimed that
it was the first to discover the unique healing effects of neem when Indians have been using neem for medicine for thousands of years

It was only after a prolonged battle did some Indian NGO's
win some cases while many are still pending

In fact you must have seen the traditional grinding stone mill used in indian villages ?
Well guess what this too has been patented by an american corporation

The repercussions of these patents will not be felt now but in many decades from now when IPR will be more strictly enforced

What gurantee that they will not patent ayurveda,yoga ?



Yes the knowledge of Yoga is for the whole of humanity

But
Our age old masters were always
reluctent to teach such practices to immature people
They did not teach every tom,dick and harry but choose their students
selectively
Weeding out the unfit and incompetent

because one must be sure of the worth of a student
only then one imparts him knowledge

In the west the only criteria for eligiblity for yoga is how much money you
can afford to spend on it

In the coming years I see that in the west Yoga will be
degraded and

People will do yoga to have better sex lives , earn money and fame ,
and the real purpose of yoga will get submerged in all the new filth that
it is being heaped on it


Maybe you might one day see Jennifer Lopez in an commercial on TV saying

"The secret of my butt size is Yoga . For the big butt you always desired join J.LO yoga studio now. Hurry! call 1800-400-23-32 and first fifty
people who register will also get free tiger skin mat to meditate on "



I hope the other members in this thread agree with my views


P:S---Bhaskar BTW what exactly are you doing in America ?
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#11 SvgGrdnBeauty

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Posted September 24 2005 - 05:06 AM

People will do yoga to have better sex lives , earn money and fame



Too late...they already do.... ::sighs:: Most of what you say of American Industry is sadly true....I wish it were not...but it is. There are so many people here who are so concerned with their pocketbook...its really rediculus...when I graduated high school in June we talked of what we all were going to uni for...and most people said pre-med or engineering...and I asked why? And some told me because they make a lot of money...very few had the desire to help people or a read interest in the craft....and its really sad...I'm a archaeologist in training....Lord knows I will not make any money...but its not about that...I have an interest...and I really think that by learning from the past we can learn to improve ourselves...

::sigh:: As for Christianity...you have to watch...some people are really open minded...but afraid to show it for fear of social judgement...you know? But then again...all these people I have met in uni...and I have met the other end of the spectrum...I'm just hoping that we can change things...you know? I live in a place (now) that emphasizes multicultural and interfaith acceptance...I don't know...I just wish I could take life here and put it out into the real world....I think I'm rambling and not on topic...sorry...pretty much...I just wish the garbage would stop and we'd all just damn learn to love eachother and to learn from eachother...
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You are the endless sea In whom all the worlds like waves Naturally rise and fall. You have nothing to win, Nothing to lose. Child, You are pure awareness, Nothing less. You and the world are one. So who are you to think You can hold on to it, Or let it go? How could you!~ Ashtavakra Gita 15: 11-12

#12 Bhaskar

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Posted September 24 2005 - 10:50 AM

I dont think the christians who are narrow minded and right wing hardliners are the ones using yoga, they are the ones fighting against the use of yoga. The christians who do use yoga as a spiritual practice are the openminded people.

I believe every religion is perfect if understood correctly. The bible in essence is not misogynistic, but the bible as seen today has been reinterpreted and translated several times. It can be seen as misogynistic if you separate the teaching form the culture and social environment of the times. Thats how teachings lose their value. If seen in that way Hinduism is far far far more misogynistic than christianity.

#13 BlackBillBlake

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Posted September 25 2005 - 06:31 AM


I believe every religion is perfect if understood correctly. The bible in essence is not misogynistic, but the bible as seen today has been reinterpreted and translated several times. It can be seen as misogynistic if you separate the teaching form the culture and social environment of the times. Thats how teachings lose their value. If seen in that way Hinduism is far far far more misogynistic than christianity.


I think all three western montheistic religions - Christianity, Judaism and Islam are basically mysoginistic and repressive of both women and any concept of the femminine Divine. None of them, except perhaps in obscure esoteric forms, really either admits women to positions of power or responsibility, and none, with the exception of the Catholics with BVM has any notion of a Goddess or Divine Mother.
On the contrary, in general God is portrayed as a fiercely male judgemental figure, and women are regarded as evil temptresses. That's because these religions in many ways are anti-life, anti the body and very anti-sex.
In the case of Islam, I think women in some places are regarded as little better than cattle, and have about as many rights.
In the Church, not even women who later get cannonozed as saints are allowed to celebrate mass, whilst some insincere priest, who's bust screwing his housekeeper when not 'on duty' can do so simply by virtue of being a man.
Hinduism may be mysoginistic in some aspects, but the Goddess/Mother is widely venerated, and whatever prudish attitudes may have crept in to-day, one can clearly see from many temple sculptures that there once existed a culture wholly and joyfully accepting of, and celebrating in high art, human sexuality, and not seeking to demonize it, as has been the case in the west.
Just a few thoughts.

#14 half a hippie

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Posted September 25 2005 - 10:10 AM

Too late...they already do.... ::sighs:: Most of what you say of American Industry is sadly true....I wish it were not...but it is. There are so many people here who are so concerned with their pocketbook...its really rediculus...when I graduated high school in June we talked of what we all were going to uni for...and most people said pre-med or engineering...and I asked why? And some told me because they make a lot of money...very few had the desire to help people or a read interest in the craft....and its really sad...I'm a archaeologist in training....Lord knows I will not make any money...but its not about that...I have an interest...and I really think that by learning from the past we can learn to improve ourselves...

::sigh:: As for Christianity...you have to watch...some people are really open minded...but afraid to show it for fear of social judgement...you know? But then again...all these people I have met in uni...and I have met the other end of the spectrum...I'm just hoping that we can change things...you know? I live in a place (now) that emphasizes multicultural and interfaith acceptance...I don't know...I just wish I could take life here and put it out into the real world....I think I'm rambling and not on topic...sorry...pretty much...I just wish the garbage would stop and we'd all just damn learn to love eachother and to learn from eachother...


Yeah that's right same thing is happening here but you can't blame some of them ( Especially the low income groups who seek to better their lives )
Those who have lived in poverty and have stomachs to feed that are dependent on them cannot really do much for others until later in their lives

Archealogy is very interesting and rewarding too if you find
hidden treasure :)
And just maybe you will solve some mysteries too
and I am sure somewhere a tutakhanem is waiting to be discovered by you ?

So you are the next Lara Croft in the making huh ? ;)
All the best

I just wish the garbage would stop and we'd all just damn learn to love eachother and to learn from eachother


Thats easy to say but I do not see that really happening
anytime soon
In fact all indicators that I see are pointing in the other way

The misunderstanding is growing around the world and so is ignorence
(Thank you capitalism and consumerism ,special mention to religion also )

I think the situation will be so bad in some decades time (if we don't do something serious now )that people are going to look back and say how peaceful 2001-2005 was
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#15 half a hippie

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Posted September 25 2005 - 10:38 AM

I dont think the christians who are narrow minded and right wing hardliners are the ones using yoga, they are the ones fighting against the use of yoga. The christians who do use yoga as a spiritual practice are the openminded people.

I believe every religion is perfect if understood correctly. The bible in essence is not misogynistic, but the bible as seen today has been reinterpreted and translated several times. It can be seen as misogynistic if you separate the teaching form the culture and social environment of the times. Thats how teachings lose their value. If seen in that way Hinduism is far far far more misogynistic than christianity.


Yes I know the Hinduism is also misogynistic
Manu Smrithi is well know for its misogynistic statements

The problem with the bible,most hindu documents ,islam or for that matter
any other religion is that it has always been written and managed by men
and men whether they do it consciously or not have allowed their bias to creep into these documents

also
Present day hindu's are some of the most hypocritical ones I know of
They spend their days blindly worshipping a 100 different idols of 100 different goddesses and at night go around silently to abortion clinincs to abort their girl feoutuses or smother their girl children while they sleep.Why only because she had a vagina and they prefer a son for various cultural and social reasons

(For those who don't know more than 22 million girl children are missing India
last decade--killed as a feotus, birth or just plain negligence )
Extra reading on female foeticide for those interested http://www.saidit.or...1/article3.html


BTW--- I just saw a hollywood movie in bits and parts called Hollywood homicide had harrison ford and Josh harnett and Josh Harnett is a hollywood cop who also teaches yoga in his part time
In a conversation with Harrison ford he says he was attracted to yoga because of the oppurtunities they provided to get laid with hot chicks and so he went on to become a teacher and they show him again in hot scenes with his students

Is this
Fact ,fiction or exxxageration I don't know
But I think there is some basis to this you cannot exxxagerate nothing
and promiscuity levels of the average american is well documented and very high
Hollywood I think is already endorsing the stereotype that I believe in

You don't have to look far for people who do yoga to get laid
We have such people in our own hipforums

Here is a member called chopda who lives in new orleans and here is his post

When I was fourteen I got rides to the meditation center with a 47 year old woman. We chatted. She got divorced. When I was fifteen after we had been at the group meditation, after we got back to my house, we were chatting and we just didn't want to leave each other. We sat in the parked car and then we started to make out.

I'll never forget the moment when I knew I could have her. It was awesome, and something I've experienced more times since with other girls. She looked at me, and I looked at her and there was perfect calm. I like that moment where there's no more act. It evaporates and - stillness. It's beautiful.

I snuck her into my bedroom like she was a teen. My sisters and their friends were all splashing around in the indoor hottub in the next room and my fried gave me the first good blowjob I ever had, and then we screwed and she had a real hot little vagina. It was great sex because previously I had tried to screw various punk rocker chicks when I was all drugged out but could never quite get off. Speed.

She was the first time I ever really loved screwing. Unfortunately, after I slept over her house a few times our differences became more glaring and the sex didn't compensate for it. Finally one night she was driving me home from her place and she said, "What do I mean to you?" And I said, "Nothing." And she screeched the brakes and said, "Get the fuck out of my car." Truth is, I liked her, but I felt that I was a bit young for some sort of committment.

Don't you?


Thread
http://www.hipforums...&highlight=yoga

Post no 54

I think this qualifies as paedophilia ?

So much for union with god :rolleyes:
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#16 half a hippie

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Posted September 25 2005 - 10:41 AM

I think all three western montheistic religions - Christianity, Judaism and Islam are basically mysoginistic and repressive of both women and any concept of the femminine Divine. None of them, except perhaps in obscure esoteric forms, really either admits women to positions of power or responsibility, and none, with the exception of the Catholics with BVM has any notion of a Goddess or Divine Mother.
On the contrary, in general God is portrayed as a fiercely male judgemental figure, and women are regarded as evil temptresses. That's because these religions in many ways are anti-life, anti the body and very anti-sex.
In the case of Islam, I think women in some places are regarded as little better than cattle, and have about as many rights.
In the Church, not even women who later get cannonozed as saints are allowed to celebrate mass, whilst some insincere priest, who's bust screwing his housekeeper when not 'on duty' can do so simply by virtue of being a man.
Hinduism may be mysoginistic in some aspects, but the Goddess/Mother is widely venerated, and whatever prudish attitudes may have crept in to-day, one can clearly see from many temple sculptures that there once existed a culture wholly and joyfully accepting of, and celebrating in high art, human sexuality, and not seeking to demonize it, as has been the case in the west.
Just a few thoughts.


Black billblake have you read the Da Vinci code ?
If you haven't then you should I think because it outlines how the church went about its crusade against women and nature worship
Good reading
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#17 SvgGrdnBeauty

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Posted September 25 2005 - 02:04 PM

Archealogy is very interesting and rewarding too if you find
hidden treasure :)
And just maybe you will solve some mysteries too
and I am sure somewhere a tutakhanem is waiting to be discovered by you ?

So you are the next Lara Croft in the making huh ? ;)
All the best


Thank you for your fond wishes...its not at all like that though...the point is not treasure...but def. mysteries... :) and just learning about people...humanity...and how they lived...and why they did what they did and what they did right and wrong in relation to what we are doing right and wrong...you know? :)

Thats easy to say but I do not see that really happening
anytime soon
In fact all indicators that I see are pointing in the other way

The misunderstanding is growing around the world and so is ignorence
(Thank you capitalism and consumerism ,special mention to religion also )

I think the situation will be so bad in some decades time (if we don't do something serious now )that people are going to look back and say how peaceful 2001-2005 was


Oh...don't speak like that...I like to have some kind of hope for it all, you know? I really hope and pray that it won't be like that...
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You are the endless sea In whom all the worlds like waves Naturally rise and fall. You have nothing to win, Nothing to lose. Child, You are pure awareness, Nothing less. You and the world are one. So who are you to think You can hold on to it, Or let it go? How could you!~ Ashtavakra Gita 15: 11-12

#18 half a hippie

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Posted September 26 2005 - 07:19 AM


Oh...don't speak like that...I like to have some kind of hope for it all, you know? I really hope and pray that it won't be like that...

I too wish I had hope but

Take for example 9/11
Why did it happened ?

The seeds of 9/11 were sowed in the mid 1980's when America helped in
the creation of Taliban and its subsequent betrayal

After a gestation period of a decade
it gave rise to Al-qaeda and created Osama



Now as we speak the seeds of tommorows destruction and violence are being sown in Iraq
and this will take a few decades to bear fruit
but it will one day and it will be one hell of a bloody harvest

In this century unlike any before it will be possible for one man or a group
of individuals to effect damage unlike anything ever done by anyone in the past

This is mainly because the advances in technology and science have made it possible to easily acquire weapons that were unhear of in the past

For example making biological agents like SARS is childs play for any
biology graduate with a few years of hard work and trial and error

What scares me is the conviction that I have that things are going to get worse from here
Its like as if I know for sure this going to happen

I wish I had
lesser confidence in my own convictions about this issue
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#19 BlackBillBlake

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Posted September 26 2005 - 08:11 AM

I too wish I had hope but

Take for example 9/11
Why did it happened ?

The seeds of 9/11 were sowed in the mid 1980's when America helped in
the creation of Taliban and its subsequent betrayal

After a gestation period of a decade
it gave rise to Al-qaeda and created Osama


I think it goes back a lot further than that - probably to 19th and early 20th century colonialism, and certainly, America's unstinting support of Israel and lack of interest in the plight of the Palestinians helped stoke the fire.
The Israel/Palestine thing should have been sorted out back in the 60's after the 6 day war. Back then, Islamic fundamentalism in it's current forms had not yet emerged. This one conflict is possibly the one main cause of anti-american and anti-western feeling. Instead of acting in an even handed and fair manner, the International community, led by the US has until very recently given Israel carte blanche to do what it likes, with no regard for the Arabs.
Now it's too late - Muslims have become radicalized and many feel deep hatred for America and it's allies - and what's happening in Iraq can only lead to even more problems in the future.

#20 BlackBillBlake

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Posted September 26 2005 - 08:24 AM

What scares me is the conviction that I have that things are going to get worse from here
Its like as if I know for sure this going to happen

I wish I had
lesser confidence in my own convictions about this issue


I share your concerns. But I also think that a lot of new problems are going to emerge during this century with climate change, global pollution, depleted oil reserves coupled with ever growing demands for energy, and also massive population growth.
I don't think religion is likely to play much part in the solution of such problems - in fact, in the case of population growth for example, the 33% of the world's population who are catholic are forbidden from using contraception. And of course, that means more AIDS too.
Basically, I think that is a matter of a small power wielding group seeking to impose its unrealistic fantasies about human nature on the world. And really, the same thing is behind a lot of the negative fallout from religions. Unfortunately, religious conservatism, which seems to dominate in many quarters, and is the engine behind fundamentalism in all religions, more or less equals stupidity, ignorance, and lack of adaptability and realism.

#21 half a hippie

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Posted September 26 2005 - 09:33 PM

I think it goes back a lot further than that - probably to 19th and early 20th century colonialism, and certainly, America's unstinting support of Israel and lack of interest in the plight of the Palestinians helped stoke the fire.
The Israel/Palestine thing should have been sorted out back in the 60's after the 6 day war. Back then, Islamic fundamentalism in it's current forms had not yet emerged. This one conflict is possibly the one main cause of anti-american and anti-western feeling. Instead of acting in an even handed and fair manner, the International community, led by the US has until very recently given Israel carte blanche to do what it likes, with no regard for the Arabs.
Now it's too late - Muslims have become radicalized and many feel deep hatred for America and it's allies - and what's happening in Iraq can only lead to even more problems in the future.


Yes Israel is another reason

Many chrisitans believe the return of israel to the suppossed holy land
is setting the stage for the return of christ ?

Imperialists have also used religion to divide and rule
and maybe they will aggravate the conflicts between shia's and sunni's

I think some muslims have been pushed so back against the wall
that they have no place to go to and as a result have adopted
counter measures

None of us can imagine what is the desperation and hopelessnes that many muslim men/women encounter in their daily lives that makes them resort to
suicide bombing something that goes against our very strong survival instinct that all animals,humans have

Every day in Iraq there are atleast two or three suicde bombers

This world is getting sucked in a vicious cycle of violence and eventually it
will come to affect one and all
Unite with the one !
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#22 MollyThe Hippy

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Posted September 27 2005 - 05:04 PM

i have no problem with the christianization of yoga or the yogatization of christ... as long as folks get to the heart and essence of spirituality

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#23 tiki_god7

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Posted September 28 2005 - 11:17 AM

i have no problem with the christianization of yoga or the yogatization of christ... as long as folks get to the heart and essence of spirituality

I agree... it may start off as a fad for a while but sooner or later some of these christians are going to stand up in their pews and see that yoga and meditation is a very valid spiritual practice which I think may eventually lead to science paying more attention to it as well....and once the science starts publishing facts of yoga people will follow...we just can't do anything with out science saying so first


on a side note I went to the video store last week and checked out he NBC tv movie series 'revelations' which is an very by the bible depiction of the end of days...in the movie there is an antichrist, or satan I don't know...that does a lot of meditation, he's the only one, its depicted almost as meditation is satans practice