The Real Lowdown On All That "free Will" Stuff.....

Discussion in 'Mind Games' started by Crystal_Nocked, May 17, 2017.

  1. Crystal_Nocked

    Crystal_Nocked Members

    Messages:
    423
    Likes Received:
    109
    One of the hottest and most debated topics in psychology, philsophy, and even in Religon is the age-old conundrum as to whether or not us homo sapiens are imbued with Free Will.

    I have done a shit-ton of reading and study on the matter, and also made the topic a sort of "field of emphasis" when I was a Psychology major in college. So here are my thoughts on it, humbly offered.

    This is pasted from another post I did on the topic. And I thought I'd like to begin a thread on it in this forum. Thanks. I welcome and encourage your thoughts......................


    So...here's the deal, Camille...as far as I see it wit' da whole Free Will thing.

    Insofar as there being an omniscient and all-powerful god who directs our lives, this of course is a silly and outdated belief. There almost certainly is not any sort of entity like that. So in this respect, YES..we have Free Will.

    I also do not believe in "destiny" or "fate." Because such a notion would pretty much necessitate the aforementioned personal, caring god. Or Universal Director, which again, I do not think exists.

    So...I think we ARE left to our own devices as far as our actions and thoughts. Our will. Our choices.

    There IS a caveat here, however.

    Neurologists and Psychiatrists--the vast majority of them, anyway--agree that the human mind works via chemical messengers and neural pathways. Chemicals called neurotransmitters are in our brains, and the various myriad inter-actions and combinations, and levels of them will dictate how we think and how we feel. After all, this is ALL that psychotropic medications do! Then simply alter the various levels of these brain chemicals.

    The thoughts we do, our actions, begin with neurons in the brain firing and tracing along paths. Neural pathways. And the more we do a certain thing, or even think the same thought, that same pathway is "etched" in the brain's circuitry. I had a psychiatrist once paint this in excellent layman's terms. He said to imagine how you wear a path in that field of tall dry grass as you walk it everyday on your way to work. This is exactly how those neural pathways are etched. The more they are used, the deeper they go, and thus, the harder it is to break free of them. Bad habits and addictions and maladaptive coping skills are caused by this.

    In fact, the term "muscle memory" is a huge misnomer, of course. What that term really refers to is, again, just the brain reverting to using those neural paths once again. So these paths are of course not always a bad thing. In fact they're usually very helpful. And a crucial step in the evolution of our brains.

    But as far as the negative side, yes, they can rob us of our truly having "free will." When we in fact think we are doing something spontaneous, we are in fact just getting "trapped" into actions that result from those same pathways being used. This is why you sometimes find yourself slapping your forehead in frustration and dismay, asking yourself, "Why the fuck do I keep doing this!"

    So, in that way, in a very biological and materialistic dynamic, without any need for make=believe gods or "life-controlling entities"--No, we do not always have the Free Will we think we might.

    But the happy end, the good news to all this science is that we are not forever condoned to follow these pathways and their resulting actions and thoughts. Through the phenomenon of neural plasticity, which is what can be wrought from CBT (cognitive behavior therapy), we can change the way we think and act. We can build new pathways, and erode the old, faulty ones. This latter action is called "pruning."

    Hope this helps.

    Cheers.
     
    1 person likes this.
  2. Ged

    Ged Tits and Thigh Man.

    Messages:
    7,006
    Likes Received:
    2,988
    Oh it's much more complicated than that
     
  3. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

    Messages:
    19,778
    Likes Received:
    13,798
    The concept of free will introduces the problem that we must think we are autonomous non physical entities inhabiting a physical body which we direct without any current or prior influence from our own physical body or the outside environment for it to work.

    For example, if the chemical makeup of my body is altered, it may have an effect on my conscious decisions, or free will.
    If I take a "happy pill" I may decide to go to the circus.
    If I eat spoiled food I may feel ill and decide to stay home.

    As to the environment, if the sun is shining, I may go on a picnic, if it's raining I stay home.

    These are simplistic examples, but I think they illustrate that our actions are not due solely to our independent thoughts and desires, but are subject to bodily and environmental factors.
     
    1 person likes this.
  4. Crystal_Nocked

    Crystal_Nocked Members

    Messages:
    423
    Likes Received:
    109
    Is it, now?

    Care to expand on why you think so?
     
  5. Crystal_Nocked

    Crystal_Nocked Members

    Messages:
    423
    Likes Received:
    109
    Well of course our given situations and environment has an impact or influence on our thought, emotions, and actions. Nobody's debating that. It's a given, it's a mundane fact, and I've never heard anyone disagree with that.

    This is why I didn't mention those things.


    Usually, when people engage in debate on free will they fall into two basic camps. Those who believe in fate and destiny, and those types also usually posit some sort of god. And those on the other side who are material reductionists and atheist or agnostic. This is the far more divisive and intriguing part of the free will debate.

    And it's the dynamic that I am addressing here in my thread.

    Hope this helps.
     
  6. Moonglow181

    Moonglow181 Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

    Messages:
    16,175
    Likes Received:
    4,916
    If you are in the school of thought that thinks everything can be explained by mathematics......then I would presume it is set patterns, as mathematical equations are not flexible....However, if you are of string theory thought, then the metaphysics are unpredictable and ever changing.....so there would be no set patterns, which I find to be a more exciting way of thinking..
     
  7. guerillabedlam

    guerillabedlam _|=|-|=|_

    Messages:
    29,419
    Likes Received:
    6,296
    I'm guessing String Theory was formulated out of quite a bit of Math. I am not really a Math person but I'm not so sure about this non-flexible aspect of Math you mention. I used to have that kind of notion in my mind as well, somewhat questioning it now. For instance, in a computer program, numbers, particularly decimal numbers lose their precision and become approximates if it's a really large or small number.
     
  8. themnax

    themnax Senior Member

    Messages:
    27,694
    Likes Received:
    4,465
    its a relative concept. never a hundred percent, never zero, the percentage constantly and randomly varying.
     
  9. expanse

    expanse Supporters HipForums Supporter

    Messages:
    2,147
    Likes Received:
    1,385
    There is nothing that exists in our universe that is not influenced by something at each moment(more specifically influenced by EVERYTHING at each moment). A decision made independently of "outside" influences is an illusion.
     
    2 people like this.
  10. NoxiousGas

    NoxiousGas Old Fart

    Messages:
    8,382
    Likes Received:
    2,385
    one problem I have always found with this is the boiling frog conundrum.
    If I am experiencing an altered state, why am I able to discern the difference between the altered state and the "normal" state if it is all dictated by electro-chemical impulses, even memory?
    Personally I think you are viewing it from the wrong perspective.
    consider that evolution is geared in order to best facilitate both the information gathering/processing and expression capabilities of whatever it is that actually is the "central scrutinizer" (to borrow from Frank) that for all intents and purposes I have encountered thus far in my existence appears to be wholly separate from any biological conditions I am subject too.
     
    Mountain Valley Wolf likes this.
  11. guerillabedlam

    guerillabedlam _|=|-|=|_

    Messages:
    29,419
    Likes Received:
    6,296
    If that altered state is resultant from say drugs, one answer could be that drugs tend to have somewhat specific action(s) on neurochemistry. Thus much of your mind is still functioning in a relatively 'homeostatic' or normal fashion but only specific regions/neurotransmitters are being significantly altered. The ability of discernment varies, people on alcohol for instance may become quite disinhibited and thus say and/or do things they would not otherwise when they are sober and when recalling these events recognize the qualitative change in behavior, while someone on LSD may be privy to a whole realm of different perceptions and sensations, which in many respects drastically contrasts with their homeostatic perceptions.

    There are different types and aspects to memory, so it's not really like the concept of memory, as a unified entity is inherently at stake when any level of intoxication occurs, however intoxication can surely get significant enough to the point of seemingly overwhelming any ability for state induced memory, aka blackouts.
     
  12. NoxiousGas

    NoxiousGas Old Fart

    Messages:
    8,382
    Likes Received:
    2,385
    I agree and disagree.
    Memory is impacted by altered states, drug induced or otherwise. Consider "state bound memories" which are memories formed during an altered state and are not fully retrievable unless one enters that state again. This is a confirmed phenomena and one I have personally experienced.
    As you say, discernment is often key and being familiar with your own cognitive processing is key in that discernment, IMO.
    Personally there has/is always an "unaffected" aspect to my awareness regardless of the/what altered state I am experiencing at the moment, but I am, as are you, probably more well versed and experienced with altered states then many folks so that our discernment of the subtleties is more refined. Consider the goofs who go all wacko because they ingested a psychedelic substance and then act as if they are wholly at the mercy of it and act like a fool. Lack of discernment concerning their own awareness and different states of same.

    Could this be due to the homeostatic functioning of our nervous system, sure.
    Could it be due to a central awareness that is unaffected by biological conditions, sure, we really don't know at this point.

    Personally I have experienced phenomena that seemingly is wholly unrelated to any physical conditions, but then again if we truly are "spirits in the material" we are so fully intertwined with both aspects that is not an easy task to discern the dividing line.
    Could it be something as simple E=MC2?
     
    Mountain Valley Wolf likes this.
  13. guerillabedlam

    guerillabedlam _|=|-|=|_

    Messages:
    29,419
    Likes Received:
    6,296
    I have certainly had experiences in altered states where my awareness has been fully overwhelmed, so I can relate to the "goofs" and moreover it makes me understand and feel for those who have been subjected to things like involuntary druggings and date rape.

    But back to altered states with intent... Having had explored many of the Analogue Research Chemicals or "Designer Drugs", I find these in particular strengthens the case for an electro-chemical explanation because the correlation in the similarity in chemicals from the illicit to the RC and the qualitative derived similarities in experiences is quite compelling. For instance, take LSD and a 1P-LSD, even with that level of intense alteration to consciousness, and that minuscule of a dose, you're still within the same realm of mind-altering experience, same goes for MDMA and a Methylone and many of the others. It's pretty fascinating stuff.
     
  14. Crystal_Nocked

    Crystal_Nocked Members

    Messages:
    423
    Likes Received:
    109
    Actually, String Theory is, well, not even s theory. Barely even s hypothesis.

    It's totally unproven.

    And all theories concerning subatomic particle physics are mathematically based.


    The two fields are not mutually exclusive as you seemed to allude to.

    They're very related.


    I'm guessing you meant to maybe say Quantum mechanics? Instead of String Theory.

    Since qm does have some unpredictable aspects to it. And some components we don't fully understand.

    But even still, it is, like most hard science, mathematically based.

    It's just that there remains some nuances of it that are as of yet nebulous to us.

    Qm, by the way, is fully proven and accepted.

    String Theory is refuted or at the least doubted by more than half of all particle physicists.

    Hoping this helps!
     
  15. Crystal_Nocked

    Crystal_Nocked Members

    Messages:
    423
    Likes Received:
    109
    But the key word there is seemingly.

    That just means you couldn't discern the true cause.

    Which is not to say there wasn't one.

    And a purely explainable, materialistic, natural one at that.

    This is why, the old adage about something that cannot be explained can be construed, arguably, as magic.

    Until of course it's proven. Or, discerned and explained.

    And what does Einsteinian relativity regarding the transfer of energy have to do with this topic? LOL
     
  16. I noticed how you didn't respond to my counterpoints in the other thread where you already posted this. What a cop out. I'm not chasing you around.
     
  17. NoxiousGas

    NoxiousGas Old Fart

    Messages:
    8,382
    Likes Received:
    2,385
    spirits in the material and all that
     
  18. Crystal_Nocked

    Crystal_Nocked Members

    Messages:
    423
    Likes Received:
    109
    Are you a believer in Animism?

    As in the sort that Spinoza believed in?

    Thanks!
     
  19. Moonglow181

    Moonglow181 Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

    Messages:
    16,175
    Likes Received:
    4,916
    Yes, i know that the string theory is just that, a theory, but it is one that makes the most sense to me so far....and it does include quantum physics or mechanics.
     
  20. Mountain Valley Wolf

    Mountain Valley Wolf Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,584
    Likes Received:
    933
    I believe there is an ever-flowing balance between trending dynamics and dynamics of spontaneity---as themnax said, it is never one or the other. So you have, on the one hand, inertia, and on the other, entropy. There are the well worn neural pathways, yet there is a creative or spontaneous nature to mind. You have the probabilities encoded in the quantum information of the probability wave collapse, which creates actuality with an actual position in space-time, yet you have the uncertainty of the superpositioned wave-field of the wave side of reality, representing absolute potentiality.

    Financial markets provide a very good example of this---on the one hand prices have an uncanny way of moving in relation to a Fibonacci Sequence---significantly to a certain level of predictability. But if you try to lay money down and predict prices, you will quickly discover that there is a very significant level of unpredictability. You can draw parameters on a chart based on this sequence, trace them back through time, and discover that these parameters continuously represented support and resistance. Going forward, these same levels of support and resistance will continue to play out, but it will be tricky for you to predict tomorrow's price, let alone next week, next month, or 5 years from now.

    I definitely believe in free will. However I approach the problem, both scientifically and ethically, from the philosophical perspective. Like Noxious Gas, I have experienced phenomena that deny rational explanation, and I continue to experience such phenomena about anytime I participate in indigenous ceremony---therefore my philosophy, among other things, is an attempt to rationally explain, or come to terms, with such things. I am therefore a Phenomenalist---that is I believe that our experience of reality is based on phenomena rather than the actual things in themselves. When you see an object, the object is not 'touching your eye,' or it is not 'in your head,' you are seeing the light of that object--the phenomena carried by light waves representing that object, and even then within your brain you are seeing electrons across neuron gaps generated from the molecules in the vision cells of your eyes. On the other hand, when you touch an object, you are not feeling that object, but the phenomena of that object. (In fact this phenomena is, more than anything else, generated by the electrons surrounding the atoms and molecules within that object. Though each particle and subatomic particle plays its part, but the aspects and qualities we associate with material things are largely determined by the electron shells around the atoms.)

    I have also come to believe that the holographic model of the universe is the closest understanding we have of reality in itself. But if the universe is a hologram, then at least to some significant level, the reality of the universe we take for granted is mentally constructed. How much would depend on how we define this universal hologram, but there is certainly a mental construct to it. The holographic model is inescapably a phenomenalist assertion. (In fact, it is interesting to note that Immanuel Kant and George Berkeley made about the same suggestions about the universe, centuries before science suggested such.)

    I am an essentialist, therefore I believe that essence (nature, spirit, form, etc), rather than existence, is the ground of our being. However, I disagree with traditional essentialism in that I do not believe that this essence or nature fully defines us; in other words, that we can choose who, what, and why, we are. That is part of our existential freedom. Essentialism makes a lot of sense when you consider the implications of the superpositioned quantum state. Individual particles manifest with a position in space-time for the most brief moments of time, and are otherwise a wave-field that is everywhere through space-time, and while it is easiest to understand this as a wave, it is misguided, for example, to speak of it in terms of having a vector, which is how we see waves. Yet collectively, within their radical impermanence, all the particles come together to form not only the objects of our universe, but that each object is consistent from one moment to the next, and that each object retains consistency to any changes it undergoes. There is clearly a form (or eidos, as Plato would say) that makes sense of Quantum randomness. We call this Quantum Information. This is the hidden true nature, that Sartre had so confidently declared modern man had moved beyond, as if it was an embarrassing superstition.

    The radical side of phenomenalism is that mind is more permenant or more real than physicality (the end of the Phenomenalist scale being that, only mind exists). Neural science on the other hand tends to follow a line of reasoning that is epiphenomenalist, in other words is follows an old Cartesian philosophy that asserted the mind simply mirrors phenomena, and is therefore not real. For example, we may think we are making a decision about whether to order ice cream, or buy a car, or commit adultery. But Neural Science leans toward the argument that the choice was already made, biochemically, before we even thought we were making it. Choice is therefore an illusion (and if we continue down this epiphenomenalist path, so is consciousness itself). So-----that is why all you wives should know, you can't blame us----it is not our fault. We had no choice! First of all, she is so much younger than you, and no visible wear and tear. And you know how I am when it comes to fishnet stockings, knee high boots, a short skirt, and cleavage. It's not my fault! Let's just forgive and forget, and remember--its out of my control...!

    But if we are creating much of our own reality out of a holographic noumenal world, then at some point we have to take responsibility for choice. At some point we have to understand that physicality reflects what happens in the nonphysical world of mind and information. Even if we are barrelling electron streams down the same neural pathways, at some point, maybe even if it was years ago, there was a choice. At some point we have to say that, I took part in creating the reality around me, and that while the physical chemistry of my brain is the result of a response to triggers and the perception of phenomena from my environment, but that it also reflects a reality shaped by a level of subjective mind so deep within me, that even I am unaware of it, then it stands to reason that the epiphenomenalist conclusions are wrong, and that I do have the ability, through mind, to make my own choice.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice