London murder rate rises higher than NY City

I think most people in countries that rank higher on the freedom index list than US but have less or no access to guns would agree. Despite there being plenty of burglaries there too. It's not like every burglar comes with a gun or can only be repelled or stopped with a gun.

 

Ok, in case you're really oblivious to this criticism you're getting for your fact sharing and pronouncing so often that that's all you do: it's not all you do.

You talk about some facts, mix them with your opinions and then pose the entire viewpoint as fact. You do this so consistently it can be seen as a tactic. I suspect this is what people get tired of.

People have been doing that ever since you started posting in topics about gun control.

 

You are mistaken. I do not do that.

Off hand I can think of only one fact that I was mistaken on, and that was a minor error that did not impact the point under discussion.

I had said that all of our Constitutional rights were derived from English Common Law when I should have said that most of our Constitutional rights are derived from English Common Law.

Can you point out any other errors that I've made beside that minor one?

 

Several people have pointed it out already. You repeat often you share just facts (and reality ) but its obviously facts and your view on reality. Nothing wrong with that btw: we're all doing that. But its kind of weird and unneccesary to act like you do not share viewpoints and opinions.

 

I don't deny that I give opinions too. But the facts that I present are facts. When people refer to these facts as opinions, those people are incorrect.

I addressed the difference between facts and opinions in post #266:
London murder rate rises higher than NY City

 

That's the most ridiculous argument against my right to own a gun for home defense that I've ever heard. Sure, the home invader might not have a gun, and if they don't, I might be able to overcome them with my muscles and boxing skills.

Actually, that brings to mind an equally ridiculous argument from another poster against my right to own a gun for home defense, which was that if I lifted weights and learned to box, I could be a man and deal with home invaders without having to resort to a gun.

 

It would appear that you are oblivious to the fact that you are either whining here, or this is your idea of a rebuttal to his posts. Personally, it sounds like both.

 

Yes, the notion that Australia and other industrial countries that have strict gun laws are not free, and that we are much freer just because we don't have such laws. As mentioned, they score higher than we do on the freedom index, and anybody who has been to them know how ridiculous your claim is. Unless you're arguing that the right to own a gun is the only freedom worth having, which would expose you as some kind of weird fanatic.

 

No errors there. Those countries did indeed pass laws that suppressed their ancient right to possess arms suitable for self defense.

And we do indeed still possess this right untrammeled.

 

And you indeed dodged the issue. You said that as a result, they are unfree and we are the freest. The freedom index says otherwise.

 

It wasn't an argument against your right to own a gun for home defense at all. I was sharing my thoughts on citizens of other countries that rank higher than yours on the freedom index and how restrained or not they feel in their freedom about not having a gun to stop a burglar. I stand with my remark.

Stfu dude. If anyone is whining and refuting here its you.
I notice Toggle excusing all kinds of criticism because what he shared was just a fact, while often it was more than that. I was pointing out that's probably why people were getting tired of him. It was honest criticism. You're probably stuck in this topic and a side too much.

 

STFU dude? That a boy.

You're right about one thing. I am refuting here. However, I'm not whining. Your silly statement, "It's not like every burglar comes with a gun or can only be repelled or stopped with a gun" was intended to put the idea across that I don't really need a gun for home defense. I was right to call it a ridiculous argument as it was based on the idea that I might get lucky.

Your second statement is not a rebuttal or argument either. In fact, the way it is written, your intended meaning is unclear.

 

What you guys who think you *need* a gun for home defense are ignoring is the fact that countries that dont have very many guns in circulation dont really have the same issues with armed home invasions that we do in the US

 

You "think" no one needs a gun for home defense because you are ignoring the fact that there are like 3.7 million burglaries in the U.S. every year, and that during about one million of these burglaries a household member is present. I'd rather not take my chances, having already been one of those million households. And I have yet to hear an intelligent reason why I shouldn't have that right to the means of protecting my home. Your *opinion* concerning that need will not resonate well with those household members who are present in the roughly one million burglaries each year.

How many home burglaries occur in the UK every year?

 

Free people have rights. By abolishing rights, they abolish freedom.

Since this index doesn't take into account the fact that these countries have abolished the right to have guns for self defense, it is hardly a legitimate measure of freedom.

Burglaries and robberies also happen in countries that lack freedom.

 

You guys are missing my point

Home invasions dont happen at a lower rate in other countries
But armed home invasions do
The US doesnt have a higher rate of crime across the board
But it does have a higher rate of lethal force during a burglary (compares to other first world countries, thats to clarify for you, ol' toggs).

People in other countries dont feel like they need guns for self defense because they arent likely to ever have to face an intruder who also has a gun.

In other words, the ease of access to guns and high rate of gun ownership and guns in circulation is precisely the reason Americans are scared and feel like they need guns for self defense.

 

I'm skeptical. Do you have a cite?

Cite?

Cherry-picked data is hardly worthwhile.

Except the possibility of an intruder with a gun isn't the only reason why people choose to have guns for self defense. We also want to defend ourselves from intruders that are armed with a knife or even just their bare fists.

And since we're free people here in America, this stuff about "need" really doesn't apply here. We have guns for self defense because we choose to do so. No "need" justification is required. We decide that we want to do it, and we do it.

That's the difference between us and a country that is no longer free.

 

Are you telling me that guns are not used in home burglaries in the UK?

And Toggle makes a good point. You seem to be saying that if a burglar has no gun, but does have a knife, then it's better that you face them with a knife of your own or your bare fists. Sounds like a bad deal to me. Sounds a lot like the "lift weights and learn to box" strategy.

 

Isn't it interesting how this topic has morphed into an argument over guns. The topic was "London Murder Rates Higher Than New York's".

Like Australia and the U.K.? Your parochialism is showing.

 

I think people should be able to defend themselves with reasonable weapons, and I'll include firearms in that category. Machine guns, howitzers, grenade launchers, etc., are out. Semi-automatics? I'll let the legislatures and the courts sort that out. You say you don't have an AR-15.
What is your weapon of choice for home defense?

My major concern is with the ready availability of guns to dangerous people. Oklahoma just joined thirteen other states in allowing purchase of firearms with no permit or license. Does that make sense? Should we feel safer now that everybody and his dog can pack heat, no strings attached? Oklahoma has the fourth highest rate of burglaries per capita in the country. I'm pretty sure the burglars will be packing now.