ok how does one get a society to become sustainable? is it possible to do in a society thats based on growth and has advertising telling us to buy buy buy, consume consume consume. what are the options and what can you do about it
Well, look into minimising the stuff you buy. Ask yourself before you buy something if you really *need* it or is it just a luxury item. Get a diesel car and put biodiesel in it (or install a vegetable oil converter). Don't buy a new car, buy a used one. recycle, recycle, recycle. If you can afford the outlay, get solar panels on your roof - I had 'em on my old house (sadly they're not very portable) and I paid practically nothing for heating and hot water in the summer & spring and autumn. Only in winter when there's bugger-all sunlight did I have to shell out a bit. Even then, I used log fires from sustainable forests ( a lot of pine is logged around my area). Be creative
I cant see a way of changing society while there is still a choice. I think people will always take the most convenient/cheapest way out and trying to make them have a conscience wont work. Hmmmmmm, guess thats the misanthrope in me coming out.
We've took a couple of small steps at home, recycle/reuse as much as possible, built a little composter in the garden last week. Gonna grow some of our own veg. Walk and cycle to places, shop at local independant stores. But to be honest I'm not sure how society on the whole could change. I don't think the majority are willing really.
well id be crap - i dont cycle coz everywhere is sooo far away! once im driving i can nip to work down the expressway in 20mins. if i were to cycle i could do half of it on cyclepaths but very long way round and the second half is on fast scary dangerous road and itd take about 3 hours and id stink like i bitch when i got there (and i wear skirts ) i do recycle though and as for compost, i just chuck it all in a trashy bit at the end of the garden. birds seem to eat what they want and theres no dead ones in it yet, the rest just decomposes. plus maybe itll encourage all the bugs away from my nice lawn and to the trashy end of the garden hehe so can sunbathe without freaking out lol luxury items - well i cant help myself, own lots of rubbish and love it! however, function more than happily without it all at festivals and stuff.
Yep I think it needs to be a case of compulsion - private motorised transport should be at least 10 times more expensive than it is at the moment, so that people will do the right thing even though it's a bit less convenient. We should tax roads, planes, electricity use, water use, import/export of luxury goods, anything that's capable of being exploited and used irresponsibly. Perhaps give people a small ration of these goods and services according to what would be sustainable, and for any continuing use above that level, introduce massive crippling taxes. Use this tax revenue to change our infrastructure to more efficient and sustainable forms of transport, food production and distribution of resources. Massively tax unsustainable use of resources and subsidise sustainable use of resources.
I can't envisage a state of sustainable living. I perceive the natural order of things to be cyclic boom and bust, we'll grow until we can no longer and then we'll suffer, the empire of man will fall and nature will return and replace.
I don't think the fact that nature is a blind process in which our fate is probably mass extinction is any argument not to try to do something about it. We may well be seeing millions or even billions of deaths at some point as our resources reach crunch point, but we have the ability to see the consequences of our actions and, in whatever small way, we can work to avoid as much suffering as possible. If by attempting to move towards sustainability we prevent some suffering or make the transition into the next stage of human existence on the planet - whatever that may be - easier for our children then we should do all we can to attempt to change our ways. If we have a choice between trying to minimise the impact of the coming resource crisis on future generations and continuing as we are and allowing things to come to a sudden crashing end, I'd say the right thing to do would be the former.
I wasn't arguing a case for inaction, action will of course have effects I just don't see a place where sustainability can be achieved. I believe we should endeavour to work towards that goal perhaps somewhere down the line it can be envisaged. .
Aye, it will be our composter that finishes us off like I'm gather you don't think it's such a good idea - Why's that?
i think instead of creating more taxes and making it even harder for people to do the wrong thing (even though they will still do it). what should be done is making it even easier and cheaper to do what is best for the environment as a whole. that way both the poor/working class and the rich can all do their bit to help without feeling like the government is just wringing them dry for every penny they've got. but then again, i'm always more in favour for luring with honey not vinegar.
I agree that that would be a nice way to do it, if we had the luxury of time. We could subsidise, invest in and freeze the cost of sustainable activities while allowing the cost of irresponsible activities to gradually rise. But we're rapidly approaching a resource crunch-point with peak oil, we are facing climate catastrophe from global warming. And the difference between the real cost say of motor transport and what people actually pay for it is staggering; they are basically getting it nearly for free when judged against its full cost - to the environment, to the real cost of roads, to the resource scarcity of oil, even to the amount of deaths and injuries cars cause and the concomitant cost in terms of healthcare. Motorists pay nothing like what they cost us on a larger economic and global resource scale, and that's just one example of unsustainable resource use. If we seriously want to do something about the consequences of this before it's too late, we need to make massive changes quickly, and the only way I can see of doing that is to impose costs in line with what unsustainable behaviours actually will cost us. Where else are we going to get the revenue to invest in structural change and subsidy of sustainability? We couldn't really make sustainable transport and consumption cheaper by factors of ten or more, and we need a huge increase in revenue to invest in them; they are already pretty fairly priced (at least for a profit-driven economic model). No, we would need to hike the costs of unsustainable use of resources putting them more in line with what they really cost us, and use the increased revenue to change our technology and infrastructure.
I think you're both right. Free public transport and very fucking expensive cars, petrol and road tax. All good.
Have a look at www.selfsufficientish.com for some great ideas that can get us all on the way to being more self supporting.
How about a law where anyone who wants to trade has to get a license by demonstrating that all their materials are sourced from sustainable sources and all their working practices are sustainable and not cuasing harm. We could gradually increase punitive taxation for anyone behaving in a damaging way and eventually outlaw inefficient, damaging and unsustainable use of resources. That's the kind of law we need if we're serious about making the necessary changes; it's not something the individual can do without legislative guidance, and it's certainly not something that will happen if there's an element of choice!
I'm no economist but that sounds like it will disadvantage our economy on the world stage. The words used to be "Unilateral Disarmament". Don't think I'm keen on the approach or the method, as a nation we are too small on item in the overal scheme of things and the methods suggested will only cause people distress, (I know, greater goods) and that's not acceptable.
That's kind of the point ... you can't have an economy based on continual growth which is sustainable. The two do not compute. If you want to have a sustainable human civilisation you need to abandon economic models based on using up finite resources at an ever increasing rate. No growth rate where the rate of increase increases is sustainable, by definition. The question was how do we get a sustainable culture, and I think that's the kind of measure we need to be considering if we wanted to get one. If the question was is it likely, I'd say no bloody chance...
Doesn't mean I don't think we should try though, I'd fully support moving towards sustainability through legislation...
