Capitalism vs. Sustainability

If anything isn't the opposite true. People in African and ect countries especially when it comes to agriculture can't compete because the west hugely subsidizes their home market

 

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Pluto?

 

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The degredation of our planets environment is more the case of sheer population numbers and the advanced level of industrial development.

The Capitalism / Socialism dynamic is not a true factor in this argument.

Take the example of the Chernobile nuclear disaster in the Soviet Unioin. It had nothing to do with Capitalism. The Soviet Union was a collectivist state.

The real Greens are unafraid to advocate the position that in ther view a sustainable planet can be acomplished by a lower population living at an Iron Age level of industrial development.

 

What are you saying we should all start living like pagans again?

 

Whats wrong with an abstract system of "money". Using colors for danger signs is arbitrary too, or red/yellow/green for traffic signals. Laws can be seen as abstract from an anarchist perspective.

TheMadCapSyd, are you saying that thats not the way colonialism happens? We dont HUGELY subsidize our markets first of all. We get Avacados and Mangoes from Mexico, Bananas from S. America, and many foods from all over. Are you talking about basic food commodities or are you in living in another reality? Check our food commodity subsidization compared to the Eu.

Colonialism in a basically draining wealth from another land and sending it to the "mother country". AFrican people CAN'T compete because they dont' have the infrastructure, oil, refineries, vehicles, fertilizers, etc. Not until WE (the U.S.) go in there and, IF the investment is worth it, decide to give them a "helping hand". We basically set up their whole lives to make products or agriculture for us. East India Company?

Nowadays its tons more economical and a little political. But basically the same.

 

I'm not sure why you think capitalism is such a great evil. I realize there are serious problems with the current system, most of which I feel are caused by manipulation of the market by the government and other authorities, but that doesn't mean that it's not a sound principle. If anything the problem is not strict adherence to capitalism, but its being diluted by economic regulation.

The idea of money is sound, and using it is much better than not using it; if you're going to deny that, I'd at least appreciate an argument (though I'm sure satisfying me isn't at the top of your list of priorities).

 

Well you see, if we start valuing the earths jewels in terms of a linear monetary scale, people will neglect their true value and exploit them.

Let us take a take, for example, a field of crops. So the farmers sows his crops, sells them on the market, and makes a profit. Each potato is worth 6, and if the farmer grows more then he can multiply his profits.

But because the farmer is stupid and does not appreciate the true value of the potato, and only sees their worth in terms of the profit he makes from them, he decides to increase his annual yield by employing unsustainable, anti-ecological farming practices.

So he grows more potatoes, and makes more money, but overall the quality of the potatoes rapidly deteriorate and eventually lose a great deal of their true value, their nutritious value, and also the soil loses it's value so that nice, healthy nutritious potatoes can no longer be grown on the land.

This happened because the farmer lost sight of the true value of potatoes.

 

There is a full transcript of the Prince's lecture on the following link.

http://www.princeofwales.gov.uk/spe...itled_facing_the_future_as_del_573388579.html

 

This is true, but I fail to see how a non-monetary system would change it.

 

Well... if money appears to be the root of the problem, if we take it out of the equation, then perhaps the problem will go away.

Simple, reasonable logic.

 

Doubtful, because money is not the problem. It's just an item of barter. Human greed and short-sightedness is the problem. But I believe humans could learn to do better. So maybe the problem is actually education and upbringing...

 

McLeodGanja, that example is far-fetched. It's true that can happen, but that has nothing to do with capitalism, and not everyone gives up their personal integrity in the pursuit of profit. If the farmer could get more of X commodity through bartering, he would STILL exploit the land to get X if he really wanted it. It has more to do with personal integrity and greed than economics. Plus in your example you also forget that the BUYER has lost sight of the real value of the potato (loss in nutrition and degradation of land) so he is basically being "duped" into buying lesser and lesser quality potatoes without knowing it.

Would you rather us have a commodity based market? Maybe you should drag 100lbs of fruit to the market so you can get some soap, or drag a couple carts of iron so you can trade? Get real...

McLeodGanja, your "reasonable logic" fails far short of useful. Money is the "root" of the problem? That's like saying that guns kill people, or the drugs made you smoke em.

 

Because you are possessed by it, it possesses you. Money possesses us all, it makes us think that there are no other alternatives.

As far as I can see, we can still do everything that we presently do without money, only we then have more potential to do things better.

Plants will wtill grow, rivers will flow, we can still make fancy gadgets and computers, but perhaps the lack of competition would mean that technological advancement would slow down, and why not.

Was there ever any rush in the first place?

Look at where rushing to build the new world got us.

We need to adopt a more spiritual attitude, with love and compassion for our brothers and sisters and our fellow animals and trees. We can all share the burden of humanity together, and work together to create new things.

I know that people are not going to accept this though, because they are possessed by a value system that has become more and more abstracted from the reality of their own existence.

The problems is definately stupidity, the whole idea of an abstract value system was very stupid in the first place, and now we are stuck with it.

It is first human ignorance and lack of foresight, and second it is money and greed. Then it is sloth, why bother to work for a living, when you can use money to enslave others to do it all for you, whilst you wallow in your own glory.

These are all the cause of the problem.

 

Theres a difference between being enslaved to something and being intertwined. We are INTERTWINED because it is functional, not because we are forced to. And no, we CAN'T do everything that we do without money. Do you want your job to pay you in corn? Are you going to drag fish from the sea to pay your rent? What if you feeder insects for a living, are you going to carry around bugs with you so you can pay people?

You act like somehow the bartering system is going to make the world a perfect place. Extremely naive for someone talking about putting the Earth back on its axis.

There was slavery before even when commodity trading was the way of the world. There was war amongst tribes. So don't tell me that money is the root of all evil.

Abstract systems of thought are stupid? Calling a car a car is abstract thinking. Really it is a compilation of many different parts that simply function. It is ABSTRACT thinking that allows us to call this heap of parts a "car" and give it specific purpose within the context of our understanding. A chair is only a chair until it is used as a ladder. And a ladder is not really a ladder, just some artifact which we traditionally use to reach higher altitudes.

I agree about the ignorance and lack of fore-sight being the prime problem. Yet people's relationship with money is just a manefestation of the prime problem.

 

Is there?


I wasn't aware!

 

Others have already hit the nail on the head: money is certainly not the root of the problem. Money was a very smart move for a number of reasons, primarily, as stated, because it is an abstract system of accumulating wealth, under which we trade our effort, rather than its product. If we could only trade the product of our efforts, we could only trade in a single commodity, which, as stated, would not work. Money makes effort universal, and allows it to be exchanged as such.

I fail to see the issue. Capitalism and money systems are always used as scapegoats for issues which are not caused by these system, but by certain people's misuse of them. Certain people misuse their right to free speech as well, but no sane person blames that on the concept of free speech.

 

OK, we're not shackled at the ankles with some guy pointing a gun at our heads, but it is still a form of slavery.

We ought really instead to be more "intertwined" with the earths natural processes instead.

We can't do ANYTHING without money you mean. Because money rules the world.

Who gives a fuck about the rainforests, we're in a recession!

Fuck the recession, it doesn't matter what state the fucking economy is, what we HAVE to do is make the best use of what resources we have left.

Money is only going to get in the way of that, so I say just get rid of it all, and all the rich bastards who use it to destroy the earth.

Yeah, why not. Not just corn though, maybe some other things to eat and clothe myself with, some beers and some stuff to smoke. I'd probably be happier that way, and derive more joy from work, which would hopefully become more of a life activity, and then my whole life would become enriched and balanced.

No, I just won't pay rent. Why the fuck should I have to pay rent to some rich **** who is privelaged enough to own more property than he needs.

I have to work to pay someone to live in a house>

What's that if it's not slavery?

If I take a shit in the woods, I'm feeding insects. When I die, I become worm food. Mosquitos bite me sometimes. What the fuck has that got to do with a vocation?

Oh what's your job?

Oh I'm an insect feeder!

What the fuck is an insect feeder?

The earth is already on it's axis. Stop using americanisms.

The world can never be perfect, not for a long long time, it has been polluted and damaged irreperably in some ways. We can never get that back.

Scrapping money is just an ideal that will never happen, but if humanity had enough courage to do it collectvely, it would probably start to make things better.

It's the root of some evil. I never said all. A lot though.

When did I say abstract systems of thought were stupid?

Stop twisting my words man, that's a generalisation that has nothing to do with what I meant.

I already do.

I suggest you do the same.

 

Yet Bush and Blair sought to limit free speech, and for a while they got away with it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_Act_2006

I am sorry but I think it's time we got back to the concept of the value of a product or service rather than some vague concept of risk and debt equals value as put together in a financial instrument by folks that never labored a minute in their lives and can't value their assets when ask.

I know exactly what I've labored for is worth. It may be a lot less than what the financial world bases their worth on...but what I base my labor on is providing for my family. I need to provide shelter, food and clothing. And extend my efforts to that extent.

 

No, it's a real system of accumulating abstract wealth and subsequently real power.

I don't get it, surely we can use our efforts to create many different products which can be traded.

Everything has value, effort, products, food, clothes, knowledge.

The point I am making, which you are again missing, is that when we attempt to assign the value of everything onto a linear monetary scale, it doesn't work, because value is intrinsically a highly complex and non-linear phenomenon!

That is just about the most stupid thing I've heard you say yet.