Capitalism vs. Sustainability

This is an environmental issue, but I thought I'd double post it in here, because it also affects the world of politics. Or rather, the world of politics affects it, in extremely negative ways I hasten to add. There are also more people in here, as well as different people, so I would like to inspire a discussion with as many people as possible.

The problems facing the environment can only be solved through radically changing the way we organise our entire culture, from our methods of farming to economic models to how we perceive ourselves. A tall order, perhaps.

I just wondered what some of the bright sparks in here would think of some of the ideas proposed here by his royal highness the prince of wales, in a very well constructed lecture I just saw on the BBC.

Some of you outside the UK might not be able to view it, but maybe it will come up on YouTube, or somewhere else. You may very well hear this on the bbc world service this week at some time though, as a repeat.

Dunno where you can get this outside the UK, but it's on the BBCi site shortly.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/

I'm not a royalist, but I have a lot of respect for ol' Charlie. He knows his shit when it comes to modern holistic socio-environmental models.

This is a salient and well constructed lecture about the failings of the current economic system, the materialistic and mechanistic world view it is built upon, and the need to embrace a more holistic approach to the whole of human culture and society.

Very refreshing to see a subject like this being talked about by on TV.

All hail the king!

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8141490.stm

Charles' vision to save the Earth


Prince Charles says rainforests have shrunk by a third since the 1950s

The Prince of Wales has issued a fresh warning of environmental catastrophe, telling an audience in London "if we fail the Earth, we fail humanity".
Prince Charles said we must "urgently confront" the risks to avoid "destroying our children's future".
He was delivering the 33rd Richard Dimbleby lecture at St James's Palace, in honour of the late broadcaster.
The prince's audience included former US President Bill Clinton and the Archbishop of Canterbury.
'Enormous shortcomings'
In his pre-recorded address, broadcast on BBC One, Charles said a new system which was more "balanced and integrated with nature's complexity" was needed.
In the speech called Facing The Future, he said we were "at an historic moment - because we face a future where there is a real prospect that if we fail the Earth, we fail humanity.
The true wealth of all nations comes from clean rivers, healthy soil and, most importantly of all, a rich biodiversity of life


Prince Charles

"To avoid such an outcome, which will comprehensively destroy our children's future, we must urgently confront and then make choices which carry monumental implications."
He said the maintenance of the world's eco-systems was directly linked to the economic well-being of nations.
"We are standing at a moment of substantial transition where we face the dual challenges of a world view and an economic system that seem to have enormous shortcomings, together with an environmental crisis - including that of climate change - which threatens to engulf us all."
He added: "We must remember that the ultimate source of all economic capital is Nature's capital.
"The true wealth of all nations comes from clean rivers, healthy soil and, most importantly of all, a rich biodiversity of life."
Charles pointed out that mankind had caused the Arctic sea ice to thin and rainforests to shrink by a third since the 1950s.
The heir to the throne has been particularly outspoken on environmental issues and in the last 12 months has visited eco-systems in Indonesia, Borneo and Brazil.

 

Its a bit short on specifics.

 

The whole lecture, or the news article?

 

Isn't the lecture three minutes long?

 

No it's about 45 minutes.

 

I read it. And he is absolutely and exactly right. Humans are so foolish as to think that they can have everything they want without taking nature into consideration, when nature is actually the boss. I see the balance every day, being a small farmer trying to survive on land that was worn out from generations of farmers who believed they needed to use chemical fertilizers and herbicides to grow anything. But it never occurred to them to LOOK AT HOW NATURE DOES IT.

Truly it is difficult even on a small scale to PUT BACK MORE THAN YOU TAKE every year in order to keep the land healthy, but it is totally necessary.

Sometimes I wish that people would keep "global warming"out of the mix. There are too many people who are so skeptical of global warming that if you mention it, they see the whole argument as losing credibility. And ultimately, it does not have one single thing to do with the fact that we MUST find the natural balance and live by it ANYHOW.

When I see the news that the idea is being tossed around that certain sections of suburbia in some cities should be "bulldozed", I ultimately see a GREAT idea being ruined.
Bulldozing is destructive. Those houses and other buildings contain a LOT of reusable materials. Bulldozing also destroys topsoil, vegetation, and even small wildlife in areas like that. When what you are LOOKING for is less waste and more wild areas. But the basic concept is a good one which would ultimately create more localized economies, less automobile traffic, and more folks who will learn to live a more nature based lifestyle.

 

For the lazy people:

http://www.princeofwales.gov.uk/spe...itled_facing_the_future_as_del_573388579.html

“the Preservation of Woods” - green legislation?

Charles:
"What was instinctively understood by many in King Henry’s time was the importance of working with the grain of Nature to maintain the balance between keeping the Earth’s natural capital intact and sustaining humanity on its renewable income"

I think Charles is re-writing history here...I doubt the motivation was environmentalism, more making sure there was enough wood to build his housing stock and ships. Instead of having the cost of importation.

Nowadays, imo, the preservation of Woods, is for the right reasons not for somewhat selfish reasons of previous royalty....nice try, Charles.

We have the National Trust, which is brilliant.
So, we have our landscape in good hands already.
Perhaps the National trust needs more funding?
But I don't think we should start again on that one...what would be the point?

"It is this knowledge that I fear we have lost in our rush to pursue unlimited economic growth and material wealth"

Was Henry sailing around the world preserving whales and other forests etc? Was he bollocks. Lets also remember the man was morbidly obese...probably had a whole farm for just his meals.

"The question that should surely keep us all awake at nights, as it still does me, is what happens if you go on deconstructing? And I fear the answer is all too plain. We summon up more and more chaos."

I agree with him here, the problem is, he is talking to the wrong audience...we (The UK) should be environmental leaders...but others need to listen to these words more than we do.

On a very small scale though, we can't even recycle properly in this country. We seem to be trying to crack a nut with a sledge hammer and attempts to solve our issues are being ruined by creating more crap than we couild ever possibly need.

We need to reconstruct how we deal with the smallest of details (in certain areas) and work from their, imo.

"We seem not to worry that we have lost much of the discourse of the philosophical and the religious."

Get lost, Charles.

"we need urgently to look deeply into ourselves and at the way we perceive the world and our relationship with it? If only because, surely, we all want to bequeath to our children and our grandchildren something other than the nightmare that for so many of us now looms on the horizon. But that threat will not go away just because we deny it. We are standing at a moment of substantial transition where we face the dual challenges of a world view and an economic system that seem to have enormous shortcomings, together with an environmental crisis – including that of climate change – which threatens to engulf us all"

I agree. Nicely put, Charles.

"What is more, countries that are undergoing rapid development are all assuming Western consumption patterns. By 2050 not only will there be nine billion people on the planet, but a far higher proportion than now will presumably have Western levels of consumption."

Go give them countries this lecture then, Charles.

Hip: "Its a bit short on specifics. "

I agree.
Its a bit short on specifics.
It's good he has probably got us average Joes talking but most of what he said has been thought before.

 

It's only a 45 minute lecture!

If anyone wants specifics, then there are specifics, lot's of them.

The problem is not the lack of specifics on this matter, it is our own impotency and unwillingness to allow radical new models of sustainability to be implemented.

BTW I have this on mp3 now, if anyone would like me to email them a copy, PM me.

 

Where? Not anywhere. I'm talking about from Prince Charles.

 

He cited specifics!

What do you want a 3 day global summit?

It's just a fucking lecture.

 

For those of you who would like some specifics, I'd recommend the book The Hidden Connections by Fritjof Capra for some great ideas about how the world can start to implement more sustainable, ecological business models. Any of his previous books for a more philosophical/theosophical introduction to the science behind them.

 

Earthmother, you always got something to say which rings with truth.

Bulldozing would be a huge waste. At least try to instill some new social model which utilizes suburbia in a more sustainable way. Surely there must be some way to use all of the established resources, as well as lawns, and integrate them into a local economy.

We're a nation who wastes oil to unecessarily mow our lawns. Then we put more fertilizers to help grow our lawns just to cut them down again. 99% of people don't even compost but give it to the garbagemen to put in a landfill.

Its funny how parents teach their young to not try to fit in with the crowd, yet one look at suburbia makes you laugh at the irony.

 

Lol, no, McLeodGanja, I don't want a three day global summit.
There are enough of those already.
I did note some key buzz words...but it did seem slightly vague to me.
I'm sure somebody will point all the specifics sooner or later, hey McLeodGanja.

 

MMMmmmmmm yeah buzzwords.

Complexity was one which came up a lot, and almost became annoying.

But I know what he on about, and it's more complex than you can fit into an hour.

Another buzz word I picked up on a lot was Balance.

Balance and complexity.

Considering the meaning of both of those two words together, how stupid then do you think it is of mankind to try to stem the flow of change, in some sort of vain attempt at maintaining a sense of stability?

 

I'll think about that and get back to you. It's too early.

 

Fair enough man. At least your thinking.

 

Wow, how come everyone is in such a bad mood?

Balance is the key to complexity.

Actually, understanding balance is the key to a lot of things.
It's how the universe works. But most modern humans don't get it. So they try to manipulate everything to their liking rather than work WITH the natural flow.

Balance is ultimately inescapable, like a bouncing ball, once it goes down it must come back up.

If humans mess with the natural balances of the earth too much, it will be only temporary anyhow, as the natural balance will restore itself in whatever way it must. Maybe not such a happy scenario for us humans, but the earth won't mind. And nature wins. Because of balance. If we could understand this concept of natural balance, things would not seem quite so complex. Humans tend to create complexity out of their misunderstanding.

 

quasi-equilibrium now there's a buzz word for you

 

This is one of the more profound statements I've read on here in a while.

'Ever notice how those who ride with the flow of nature are generally content and peaceful, while those who are obsessed with manipulating their environment are constantly struggling and miserable?

We use capitalism as an excuse to desecrate our environment, but this is short sighted arrogance. Capitalism is merely a construct of mankind, and mankind is a servant of nature, not the other way around.