A Discussion Of Non Dual "adviata" Philosophy.

Discussion in 'Philosophy and Religion' started by Meagain, May 29, 2017.

  1. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    I'm placing this here instead of the Hindu section as I want it to be seen and participated in, and this section needs some action...so here goes.

    The Nature of Man According to the Vedanta

    Adviata Vedanta is a school of Hindu philosophy that traces its roots back to the ancient Indian Upanishads.
    John Levy was a wealthy British mystic and expert on Indian music who gave up his fortune and moved to India to study Vedanta under Sri Atmananda Krishna Menon.

    In this thread I will attempt to engage in understanding his classic book on non-duality and the understanding of the self by posting passages from the book, chapter by chapter and then offering my understanding of what they say. I will omit certain introductory portions.

    Hopefully this will lead you and others to follow along and make your own contributions.

    We’ll see how far I can go.

    Chapter 1

    Levy tells us there are three mental states known to man, there is a fourth in some schools, but we will disregard it for now unless someone points it out as we go along.

    We have experiences when awake, when we dream, and we also have a non-experiential state. There are no other states of human existence.
    These states must be understood not only from our normal waking state, but also from within each state on its own. That is, for example, we will examine how we experience the dream state from within the dream state itself.

    More later…..
     
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  2. Ged

    Ged Tits and Thigh Man.

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    Wouldn't the state of deep,transcendental meditation,where the pineal gland is activated,where there is virtually no thought, possibly during awakened Kundalini, including the involuntary blissful smile and a sense of having the mind expand to fill limitless space...,Constitute a fourth state of human reality?
     
  3. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Levy will argue that the third state, dreamless sleep, is in fact that state.

    We'll get into that.
     
  4. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Comparing the waking and dreaming state we find when experiencing each of these states we have an apprehension of objects separate from ourselves. The fact that while in the waking state we experience actual objects while in the sleeping state the objects are formulations of the mind makes no difference while in each state, as we perceive both the waking objects and sleeping objects as real when in each state.

    This raises the question of how real the objects are that are viewed in each state. In considering this question we must compare the two states.

    a.Thoughts in dreams, are said to arise from the waking state. Thoughts also arise in the waking state.

    b. Thoughts in dreams, are said to arise from the subconscious. Thoughts from the subconscious also arise in the waking state.

    c. When in dreams the dream body can do things the waking body cannot. However the waking mind can do the same things the sleeping mind can. It can imagine things or notions that do not exist in the waking state.

    d.Waking thoughts may appear to be both voluntary and involuntary. From the view of the one awake the dreamer's thought always appear involuntary. However, when dreaming the thoughts may also appear to be both voluntary and involuntary.
    In addition, we enter both the waking and sleeping states involuntarily.

    e. Dreams seem to occur outside of ordinary waking time, but from within the dream we think we are awake so the time distinction doesn't hold.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
  5. Chodpa

    Chodpa Senior Member

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    nondualism doesn't exist in books or philosophy

    advaita is inherently dualistic in spite of claims to the contrary because it posits a god

    only daoist and buddhist nondualism are true dualism

    most pathetic attempt is the thinker's dualism called neoadvaita where people just think themselves into dipshit nonduality

    as far as advaita, better to consider avaduti gita and guru datta which is inner guru, and avaduti is oneness with all

    true nonduality is one with all and sees the oneness of all
    and still acts like normal

    hardest thing to grasp as nondualist is you are nothing special and still have to be excellent through same time tested ways as all other people
     
  6. BlackBillBlake

    BlackBillBlake resigned HipForums Supporter

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    A contradiction there. 'Buddhist and Taoist non-dualism are true dualism'?
     
  7. Chodpa

    Chodpa Senior Member

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    yeah, and jack of all religions master of none - that means you
     
  8. BlackBillBlake

    BlackBillBlake resigned HipForums Supporter

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    We can't all be as enlightened as you.

    And given the way you post on here, who'd want to be anyway?
     
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  9. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    True. If you can explain what that means.

    It depends on your definition of God. I'm not aware that Levy posits what I would define as a god.

    I'm not familiar with either of these. Looks like a good subject for another thread unless they can be tried into what Levy is stating.


    Any actual comments on what I have posted by Levy? Pro, con, questions, opinions?
     
  10. BlackBillBlake

    BlackBillBlake resigned HipForums Supporter

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    According to Mandukya Upanishad,which as far as I know is the origin of the idea of the 4 states of consciousness, there is a 4th state known as Turiya. It is said to comprise the other 3, and is the basis for them whilst transcending them.

    Vs.7 of Mandukya Upanishad:

    Turiya is not that which is conscious of the inner (subjective) world, nor that which is conscious of the outer (objective) world, nor that which is conscious of both, nor that which is a mass of consciousness. It is not simple consciousness nor is It unconsciousness. It is unperceived, unrelated, incomprehensible, uninferable, unthinkable and indescribable. The essence of the Consciousness manifesting as the self in the three states, It is the cessation of all phenomena; It is all peace, all bliss and non—dual. This is what is known as the Fourth (Turiya). This is Atman and this has to be realized.
     
  11. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Hmm.

    I think this will correspond to Levy's third state, dreamless sleep. In dreamless sleep there is a cessation of phenomena, it's all peace and non-dual.
    I may be wrong, but we'll get into the this and possibly possible fourth state after we cover the first two.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
  12. BlackBillBlake

    BlackBillBlake resigned HipForums Supporter

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    OK - I'll leave further comment until you get further. I probably will have more to say on this general topic of advaita. Good idea for a thread BTW.
     
  13. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    I forgot, here is the complete text I'm pulling from.

    Now to continue our investigation of the first two states, waking and dreaming.

    5. It is pointed out that both the waking and dreaming state are states of mental activity. When awake the mental activity includes "objects" that are perceived to be "outside" of the thinker. In the dreaming state the mental activity is presumed to be limited to the purely mental realms.

    6. Thinking, feeling, and the perception of tangible objects are common to both states, but on awakening the dream state is seen to be purely mental.
    Yet when asleep, the dreamer believes the experiences in that dream state are real.
    What proof do we have that the waking state is nothing more than mental projections that appear real to the one awake, but have no more reality than those experienced when dreaming?
    Do tangible objects have a separate existence from the perception by the "mind"?
    Is there a difference between mind and matter?
    Are there really separate states called waking and dreaming?


    7. We have discovered that there is something that perceives both states equally from within those states.

    8. Mental activity is present in both states, and as mental activity is something that perceives and something perceived, all mental activity must be dual in nature.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
  14. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    On to the third state:


    In dreamless sleep there is no mental activity. This is not an absence of thinking as it can only be regarded as such by the waking thinking mind. Rather it is a lack of awareness.

    In dreamless sleep individual thought disappears, however something remains.

    Upon waking one knows that one had entered the state of dreamless sleep even though dreamless sleep itself is never experienced. This suggests that some type of consciousness remains in dreamless sleep. As dreamless sleep has no knower or known, it must be a state of non duality.

    Upon waking from dreamless sleep we are refreshed. As there is no individual, or objects, or desires, dreamless sleep must be a state of non desire.

    As dreamless sleep is a non dual experience beyond the immediate experience of an observer or individual until he or she wakes, it must be that the dreamless, non dual experience is background for the two states.

    What'd ya think?
     
  15. BlackBillBlake

    BlackBillBlake resigned HipForums Supporter

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    It's obviouly an unconscious state as far as our waking consciousness goes. If we could become conscious in that state, perhaps we'd realize the non-dual, unconditioned and relationless Brahman. But we'd also be unaware of our waking or dreaming consciousness - oblivious to the world. As in a deeply involved state of trance.
    It's possible that during our dreamless sleep every night we return to the essential. But on waking have no memory of it. On emerging from that, we're back in the dream or waking state once more.

    That's probably one reason why most advaitins say the multiplicity of the cosmic manifestation is an illusion - maya, that will disappear when we realize the one reality. I'd better say that I don't go with the idea that the universe is an illusion. Our consciousness of it may be a false consciousness, or a limited consciousness, but I'm not at all convinced it's all illusion.

    Personally, I'm much more influenced by the integral philosophy of Sri Aurobindo than traditional advaita. But let's leave that out of the picture for now as I don't want to pile up too many complications. Maybe I'll get back to it later in the discussion.
     
  16. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    I think Aurobindo was more concerned with evolution than Levy was.

    As far as achieving consciousness in the dreamless state, that wouldn't be possible as the word consciousness in this context would mean the presence of a perceiver and a perceived. If that would happen it would then be either a state of waking or dreaming sleep and we're back to duality.
     
  17. themnax

    themnax Senior Member

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    in the infinity of numbers, one and two are just two of them, and thus two to infinity against.
    duality is a human invention. so is singularity. were are infinity and zero at the same time.
    the unknown imposes no limitations.
    those we have do not come from it, but as a matter of external and unrelated circumstance.
    benifit and harm are two different things certainly, but they are merely theoretical poles of a continuum.
    there is not a singularity of awarness that is either ourselves or just one other.
    there may be infinite other. this is neither duality nor singularity.
    we do experience singly. but what we experience is from so much more that even all of us is a tiny fraction of it.
    i think duality is creating a game to play and to make excuses.
    but singularity is just as improbable and illusary also.

    i guess i'm maybe missing what is actually being discussed as i don't think i've personally encounterd the specific text being refered to.
    to me, all these names though, they are just ways of looking at things.
     
  18. BlackBillBlake

    BlackBillBlake resigned HipForums Supporter

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    Agree. But that's the advantage of Indian philosophies of a 'spiritual' nature over the western equivalents - lack of dogma. If we were to examine different texts we might get a very different picture.
    I don't think any set of ideas or formulations can be taken as 'absolute', and the plurality of Indian thought offers a wide range of different approaches.
     
  19. BlackBillBlake

    BlackBillBlake resigned HipForums Supporter

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    Aurobindo's work is all about evolution.

    Let's leave the other point for now.
     
  20. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Moving on; here's where I get a little confused:

    We have established that there are three states, waking, dreaming sleep, and dreamless sleep.
    In the first two states, mental activity takes place and duality is present.
    In the third state no mental activity occurs and so it is a non dual state, there is no individuality.

    But a problem arises.

    If we are in a state of dreamless sleep, in which no individual is present, as it is a non-dual state, how can the individual in the non-dual state be aroused form his sleep by an outside source?

    Levy seems to say that we can't judge the dreamless state form the state of being awake.
    We assume from the waking state that a body, or individual persists when the body has entered the dreamless state.
    From the view of another person who is awake, it does, as he can see it.
    But from the view of the one in the dreamless state it doesn't, as he has no mental activity at all.


    So Levy says the person awake sees the other wake up because that other person is awake.
    But from the realm of dreamless sleep, there is no body, no others, and no self....so no one to wake up.
    He claims a confusion of viewpoints.


    Moreover, even if we assume that some sort of link, or partial individual continues in the dreamless state linking it to those in the state of being awake, the "'one" in the dreamless state can't experience the act of being aroused until they are already awake.

    Did I get that right?
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017

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